Most of the powers that the wizard schools provide are all based on "wizard level" (and not "caster level").

Prestige classes only provide an increase in the "effective level of spellcasting".

Given this, I believe I would be correct to interpret that no prestige class levels stack with wizard levels for determining their effects?

Most of the powers that the wizard schools provide are all based on "wizard level" (and not "caster level").

Prestige classes only provide an increase in the "effective level of spellcasting".

Given this, I believe I would be correct to interpret that no prestige class levels stack with wizard levels for determining their effects?

Most of the powers that the wizard schools provide are all based on "wizard level" (and not "caster level").

Prestige classes only provide an increase in the "effective level of spellcasting".

Given this, I believe I would be correct to interpret that no prestige class levels stack with wizard levels for determining their effects?

You get the increase in spell casting abilities as if you leveled in Wizard, ie. increase in spell effects and spells gained, etc. but not improvments to familiars, bonus feats etc. which are tied to the wizard class only.

But it should be noted that the special school powers are tied to 8th level, so if your specialist wizard wants to go with the old splatbook non-paizo favorite of "Master Specialist" he can still pick up a bunch of powers there.

I have a question about Wizards (or any caster really) and PrCs. This seems like a good thread to post it so here goes:

It is stated when you go into most Caster PrCs that when you gain a lvl in that class you gain spells/caster lvl as if you had gained another lvl in your caster class. Right, I got that, but what if you go back to your original casting class and take another lvl? For instance:

A lvl 7 wizard decides to take his next lvl in a PrC (any casting PrC will do).

The Wizard takes his next 3 lvls in Lore Master and so now he is a Wiz 7 / Lore Master 3 with a total caster level of 10 and total spells as if he were a 10th lvl Wizard.

But let's say he wants to take his 11th lvl in Wizard again and get that 8th lvl school power. His total caster lvl will go up to 11. But will he gain additional spells per day and spells known as an 11th lvl Wizard, or will he gain them as an 8th lvl Wizard?

I guess what I am asking is after you leave your wizard path is it a seamless transition to come back or does it screw up your spell progression?

The logical answer is that it is a seamless re-transition and he would gain spells known and spells per day as an 11th lvl Wizard but I have not seen rules to explicitly state that and was wondering if there even were any specific rules.

I have a question about Wizards (or any caster really) and PrCs. This seems like a good thread to post it so here goes:

It is stated when you go into most Caster PrCs that when you gain a lvl in that class you gain spells/caster lvl as if you had gained another lvl in your caster class. Right, I got that, but what if you go back to your original casting class and take another lvl? For instance:

A lvl 7 wizard decides to take his next lvl in a PrC (any casting PrC will do).

The Wizard takes his next 3 lvls in Lore Master and so now he is a Wiz 7 / Lore Master 3 with a total caster level of 10 and total spells as if he were a 10th lvl Wizard.

But let's say he wants to take his 11th lvl in Wizard again and get that 8th lvl school power. His total caster lvl will go up to 11. But will he gain additional spells per day and spells known as an 11th lvl Wizard, or will he gain them as an 8th lvl Wizard?

I guess what I am asking is after you leave your wizard path is it a seamless transition to come back or does it screw up your spell progression?

The logical answer is that it is a seamless re-transition and he would gain spells known and spells per day as an 11th lvl Wizard but I have not seen rules to explicitly state that and was wondering if there even were any specific rules.

Spellcasting is generally "seem-less" as you put it. Since the casting "counts as and stacks with" it kind of "floats on top" of any wizard levels you get regardless of when you get them.

I have a question about Wizards (or any caster really) and PrCs. This seems like a good thread to post it so here goes:

It is stated when you go into most Caster PrCs that when you gain a lvl in that class you gain spells/caster lvl as if you had gained another lvl in your caster class. Right, I got that, but what if you go back to your original casting class and take another lvl? For instance:

A lvl 7 wizard decides to take his next lvl in a PrC (any casting PrC will do).

The Wizard takes his next 3 lvls in Lore Master and so now he is a Wiz 7 / Lore Master 3 with a total caster level of 10 and total spells as if he were a 10th lvl Wizard.

But let's say he wants to take his 11th lvl in Wizard again and get that 8th lvl school power. His total caster lvl will go up to 11. But will he gain additional spells per day and spells known as an 11th lvl Wizard, or will he gain them as an 8th lvl Wizard?

I guess what I am asking is after you leave your wizard path is it a seamless transition to come back or does it screw up your spell progression?

The logical answer is that it is a seamless re-transition and he would gain spells known and spells per day as an 11th lvl Wizard but I have not seen rules to explicitly state that and was wondering if there even were any specific rules.

Yeah I think this answers my question. Thanks all.

I wasn't so much asking about caster lvl. I know it all stacks and his caster lvl would be 11 regardless.

The question was more about what lvl would his new spells known / spells per day be at?

Because if he has effectively already got spells known and spells per day as a 10th lvl Wizard then when you go back and actually take your 11th lvl to become an 8th lvl Wizard, will you get new spells per day and spells known to add to your spell book as an 8th lvl Wizard all over again (which I think would be ridiculous), or would you get them as an 11th lvl Wizard (which I think is how it should work). The logical conclusion is that he gains new spells known and new spells per day as an 11th lvl Wizard and I think that is what you guys are saying too, I just wasn't sure if the rules came out and said it.

NOTE: When I say "spells known" for the purposes of this example of a Wizard I am talking about the new spells you get to put in your book at each new lvl. You do still get new spells for your spell book each lvl don’t you? I haven’t read that part of the SRD yet.

Do you still get extra spell slots if you're a specialist wizard and branch out to a Prc and you gain a new spell level? Say you're 6th lvl specialist and you move to a Prc, do you still get the extra 4th level spell to fill with your favorite spell school? Can't find it anywhere in the rulebook.

And furthermore, do you still need to pick 1 of your level up spells from that school?

And further furthermore, can you use only 1 slot for a 4th level spell from your banned schools? You're a specialist up to 3rd level spells after all...

take your 11th lvl to become an 8th lvl Wizard, will you get new spells per day and spells known to add to your spell book as an 8th lvl Wizard all over again (which I think would be ridiculous), or would you get them as an 11th lvl Wizard (which I think is how it should work).

Do you still get extra spell slots if you're a specialist wizard and branch out to a Prc and you gain a new spell level?

There is a PrC that will advance "one" of the sorcerer bloodline abilities but none for wizards. With the Dragon Disciple PRC we have a precedent for classes that do advance these abilities but I have not seen one yet.

I would argue that the lore master PRC would have been a good choice for an exception but they did not do it.

There is a PrC that will advance "one" of the sorcerer bloodline abilities but none for wizards. With the Dragon Disciple PRC we have a precedent for classes that do advance these abilities but I have not seen one yet.

I would argue that the lore master PRC would have been a good choice for an exception but they did not do it.

Yeah I think this answers my question. Thanks all.

I wasn't so much asking about caster lvl. I know it all stacks and his caster lvl would be 11 regardless.

The question was more about what lvl would his new spells known / spells per day be at?

Because if he has effectively already got spells known and spells per day as a 10th lvl Wizard then when you go back and actually take your 11th lvl to become an 8th lvl Wizard, will you get new spells per day and spells known to add to your spell book as an 8th lvl Wizard all over again (which I think would be ridiculous), or would you get them as an 11th lvl Wizard (which I think is how it should work). The logical conclusion is that he gains new spells known and new spells per day as an 11th lvl Wizard and I think that is what you guys are saying too, I just wasn't sure if the rules came out and said it.

NOTE: When I say "spells known" for the purposes of this example of a Wizard I am talking about the new spells you get to put in your book at each new lvl. You do still get new spells for your spell book each lvl don’t you? I haven’t read that part of the SRD yet.

This is, of course, only my understanding and interpretation of the rules as presented.

~Doskious Steele

Wizards who level in Prestige Classes would not seem to get to add 2 free spells to their spellbooks at PrC levelup.

Think of it this way:
1) An 8th level Wizard would hjave the spells of an 8th level Wizard.
2) A 5th level Wizard with 3 levels of a PrC with +1 Wizard would have the spells of an 8th level Wizard.

Either way, they get the free 2 spells per level.

Doskious Steele wrote:

Wizards who level in Prestige Classes would not seem to get to add 2 free spells to their spellbooks at PrC levelup.

Actually they would and the 3.5 FAQ made it clear they would.

Think of it this way:
1) An 8th level Wizard would hjave the spells of an 8th level Wizard.
2) A 5th level Wizard with 3 levels of a PrC with +1 Wizard would have the spells of an 8th level Wizard.

Either way, they get the free 2 spells per level.

It's my understanding that the Wizard's free spells are a result of the Wizard studying their spellbook and craft; if the character is busy learning PrC related things, it makes sense to me that they wouldn't have as much time to study for the bonus spells. I don't deny that a Wizard 8 and a Wizard 5/Geometer 3 can cast the same spells or produce the same level-dependent effects, just that the PrC levels doesn't grant free spells to Wizards.

~Doskious Steele

I confess, having looked through the default 3.5 FAQ PDF, I am having trouble finding the section that addresses this point, could you provide a quote or a link?

This is an essential tenant of 3.0/3.5 games and has been unchanged since the beginning. I've seen nothing to suggest it changed in 3.p rules.

MainFAQv06272003.pdf page 13 discusses this.

James Risner wrote:

Doskious Steele wrote:

Wizards who level in Prestige Classes would not seem to get to add 2 free spells to their spellbooks at PrC levelup.

Actually they would and the 3.5 FAQ made it clear they would.

Think of it this way:
1) An 8th level Wizard would hjave the spells of an 8th level Wizard.
2) A 5th level Wizard with 3 levels of a PrC with +1 Wizard would have the spells of an 8th level Wizard.

Either way, they get the free 2 spells per level.

I confess, having looked through the default 3.5 FAQ PDF, I am having trouble finding the section that addresses this point, could you provide a quote or a link?

It's my understanding that the Wizard's free spells are a result of the Wizard studying their spellbook and craft; if the character is busy learning PrC related things, it makes sense to me that they wouldn't have as much time to study for the bonus spells. I don't deny that a Wizard 8 and a Wizard 5/Geometer 3 can cast the same spells or produce the same level-dependent effects, just that the PrC levels doesn't grant free spells to Wizards.

~Doskious Steele

Related question:

One of my players has made a specialist wizard (Evoker) and is considering going for the Master Specialist class in a couple of levels.

I know that by the raw, he'll not get any more benefits from his school specialization while he takes levels as MS, but that is kinda counter intuitive, as he is taking a PrC that's supposed to be, well, a master specialist.

Would it be terribly unbalancing to say that MS levels also gave specialist benefits? If yes, what would make it balanced again?

Regards,
Rufus

No one?

Related question:

One of my players has made a specialist wizard (Evoker) and is considering going for the Master Specialist class in a couple of levels.

I know that by the raw, he'll not get any more benefits from his school specialization while he takes levels as MS, but that is kinda counter intuitive, as he is taking a PrC that's supposed to be, well, a master specialist.

Would it be terribly unbalancing to say that MS levels also gave specialist benefits? If yes, what would make it balanced again?

Regards,
Rufus

Related question:

One of my players has made a specialist wizard (Evoker) and is considering going for the Master Specialist class in a couple of levels.

I know that by the raw, he'll not get any more benefits from his school specialization while he takes levels as MS, but that is kinda counter intuitive, as he is taking a PrC that's supposed to be, well, a master specialist.

Would it be terribly unbalancing to say that MS levels also gave specialist benefits? If yes, what would make it balanced again?

Regards,
Rufus

I think it would be overpowered because he's gaining two class worth of abilities. Master specialist gives you evoker bonuses and evoker gives you evoker bonuses. Usually to get two classes worth of special abilities you have to play a gestalt game.

At the moment, I'm considering turning the School Esoterica powers into feats that can be taken at roughly the time you would get them from the Prestige Class (roughly 7th, 10th 13th) with some meaningful requirements and get rid of the prestige class.

grasshopper_ea wrote:

I think it would be overpowered because he's gaining two class worth of abilities. Master specialist gives you evoker bonuses and evoker gives you evoker bonuses. Usually to get two classes worth of special abilities you have to play a gestalt game.

Hence me asking, if there was a way to make it more balanced :)

At the moment, I'm considering turning the School Esoterica powers into feats that can be taken at roughly the time you would get them from the Prestige Class (roughly 7th, 10th 13th) with some meaningful requirements and get rid of the prestige class.