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Larcifer (Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Pathfinder Companion Subscriber), Wed, Nov 4, 2009, 12:52 AM

Hey 2 questions 1) can a draconic or abyssal sorcerer take weapon focus claws? 2) can same sorcerer take unarmed strike and make 3 attacks 1 with a kick then 2 secondary attacks with claws (realizing the -2 with primary and -5 with secondary)?


Aubrey the Malformed (Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Modules, Planet Stories Subscriber), Wed, Nov 4, 2009, 01:08 AM

1) I see no reason why not. 2) I would consider that a kick would be an unarmed attack. Unless he has monk levels or Improved Unarmed Strike, he would suffer an attack of opportunity if he tried to kick. The feat implies that an unarmed strike is not a natural weapon but an armed attack, and as such, without monk levels or the feat, you would take -4 to hit with the kick and it would be your primary attack, and the kick would only do non-lethal damage. Then your claws would take a -5 to hit as secondary attacks. In general, the whole thing sounds very sub-optimal.


The Grandfather, Wed, Nov 4, 2009, 01:18 AM

Larcifer wrote: Hey 2 questions 1) can a draconic or abyssal sorcerer take weapon focus claws? Yes. Larcifer wrote: 2) can same sorcerer take unarmed strike and make 3 attacks 1 with a kick then 2 secondary attacks with claws (realizing the -2 with primary and -5 with secondary)? Yes. See below. PB p. 302 wrote: Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack’s original type. However, since unarmed attacks are considered as the actual weapon you make the kick at -2 and the claw attacks at -5 on attack rolls. Generally this is a boor tacktick against all but the most easy to hit enemies (for a sorcerer in particular).


The Grandfather, Wed, Nov 4, 2009, 01:23 AM

Aubrey the Malformed wrote: 2) I would consider that a kick would be an unarmed attack. Unless he has monk levels or Improved Unarmed Strike, he would suffer an attack of opportunity if he tried to kick. The feat implies that an unarmed strike is not a natural weapon but an armed attack, and as such, without monk levels or the feat, you would take -4 to hit with the kick and it would be your primary attack, and the kick would only do non-lethal damage. Then your claws would take a -5 to hit as secondary attacks. In general, the whole thing sounds very sub-optimal. I believe the OP stated the intent of taking the Improved Unarmed Strike feat (if not in those exact words). Natural attacks are always secondary attacks when combined with traditional weapon attacks.


The Wraith, Wed, Nov 4, 2009, 08:45 AM

The Grandfather wrote: Larcifer wrote: 2) can same sorcerer take unarmed strike and make 3 attacks 1 with a kick then 2 secondary attacks with claws (realizing the -2 with primary and -5 with secondary)? Yes. See below. PB p. 302 wrote: Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack’s original type. However, since unarmed attacks are considered as the actual weapon you make the kick at -2 and the claw attacks at -5 on attack rolls. Generally this is a boor tacktick against all but the most easy to hit enemies (for a sorcerer in particular). Please note that the primary attack does not suffer from any penalty when mixing Natural Attacks together. It's true that the rules on the Core book say that: "You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes. (...) In addition, all of your attacks made with melee weapons and unarmed strikes are made as if you were two-weapon fighting." (PRD -> Combat -> Actions in Combat -> Standard Actions -> Attack -> Natural Attacks) However, in a recent thread, James Jacobs confirmed that this is not the case. James Jacobs wrote: Ah. Part of the problem, alas, is that this is a rules mechanic that Jason was wrestling with up to the very last second. The Bestiary rules are correct. The part in the core rules that contradicts this is a fragment, alas, that stuck in there. It should be cleaned up, I agree. It's unfortunate that the confusion is in there, but again, as far as I understand the game and as far as I've been using the rules for the last several volumes of Pathfinder, the rules from the Bestiary are the correct ones. You can see the original thread starting here.


Larcifer (Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Pathfinder Companion Subscriber), Wed, Nov 4, 2009, 10:26 AM

Yes my intent was to take Improved Unarmed strike... So then its Primary (Kick), then secondary claw (-5), secondary claw (-5) that is what I thought, I just got confused with the dissonance between Core and Bestiary. Now I need to look at factoring Multiattack...


The Grandfather, Thu, Nov 5, 2009, 12:52 AM

The Wraith wrote: Please note that the primary attack does not suffer from any penalty when mixing Natural Attacks together. It's true that the rules on the Core book say that: "You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes. (...) In addition, all of your attacks made with melee weapons and unarmed strikes are made as if you were two-weapon fighting." (PRD -> Combat -> Actions in Combat -> Standard Actions -> Attack -> Natural Attacks) However, in a recent thread, James Jacobs confirmed that this is not the case. James Jacobs wrote: Ah. Part of the problem, alas, is that this is a rules mechanic that Jason was wrestling with up to the very last second. Thanks Wraith.