Hey rules gurus....

Can you stand from being prone and then take a 5-foot step? It came up in our last session and there was some confusion.

Hyrum.

Hey rules gurus....

Can you stand from being prone and then take a 5-foot step? It came up in our last session and there was some confusion.

Hyrum.

I would think absolutely yes. Standing up isn't movement. It's a move-equivalent action. Thus there's no restriction on taking a 5. You just can't move afterward, as usual. You'd still have a standard action left.

Don't confuse movement and a move-equivalent action.

"You can move 5 feet in any round when you don't perform any other kind of movement" so that would be a big no. You might be able to use your standard action to get up and then a 5 foot adjust, but then you wouldn't get an attack. Best advice would be to tumble out into the spot and then attack.

Sorry Lael, I'm with Anguish on this one. Movement in your quote is moving any part of your Speed, which means actually leaving your square. Standing up just changes your position in the square. If you're tripped and fall prone you have not moved any of your speed.

You can definitely Stand from Prone (Move Action), take a 5 foot step, and use your remaining Standard action as you see fit.

--Vrock, Paper, Scissors!

Getting up from being prone is a move equivilant action yes? So that is the equivilant of any other kind of movement yes?. And by RAW then you can't take a 5 foot adjustment after you get up, simple as that.

What is the purpose of doing that anyways? You draw a OOP getting up, so what is the 5 foot adjustment going to do besides not getting a second OOP (assuming the creature in the next square has combat reflexes to get mutiple OOP on you).

Getting up from being prone is a move equivilant action yes? So that is the equivilant of any other kind of movement yes?. And by RAW then you can't take a 5 foot adjustment after you get up, simple as that.

What is the purpose of doing that anyways? You draw a OOP getting up, so what is the 5 foot adjustment going to do besides not getting a second OOP (assuming the creature in the next square has combat reflexes to get mutiple OOP on you).

I'm with others; standing up from prone is a move-equivalent action, which is different from actual movement. Compare it to drawing your weapon (which is another example of move-equivalent action), because by your ruling you could not take a 5 ft. step on the same round if you choose to draw your weapon. And that would not make any sense, would it?

Although "adjusting" your position with a 5 ft. step might not benefit you immediately, there are often tactical reasons for doing it; for example, you might grant an ally flanking bonuses. Furthermore, 5 ft. steps don't provoke AoOs.

Hope this helps!

Yep. Move-equivalent action does not mean actual movement. It just means it uses up a move action to perform.

So If you were prone, action-wise, you could for instance do any of the following:
.

Stand up – move action
Move up to your speed – move action
(because you can substitute a move action for a standard action)

Stand up – move action
attack once – standard action
5-foot step – (may be performed when you don't take any other movement)

Stand up – [ooc]move action
5-foot step (away from opponent) may be performed when you don't take any other movement)
cast a spell – standard action
(because you don't want to provoke an attack of opportunity from casting a spell)

For me, standing up from prone is a movement . . . you are rising up. Therefore no 5-foot step may follow.

My opinion is that the RAW would be that a 5 foot step would not be allowed. However, I personally have a house rule that overrides this. I call it "rolling up", allowing a character to stand up in a square adjacent to the one they are prone in. This is a move-equivalent action.

"If you move no distance in a round (commonly because you have swapped your move for one or more equivalent actions, such as standing up), you can take one 5-foot step either before, during, or after the action. For example, if Tordek is on the ground, he can stand up (a move action), move 5 feet (a 5-foot step), and then attack."
PHB 3.5 Pgs. 138-39.

"If you move no actual distance in a round (commonly because you have swapped your move action for one or more equivalent actions), you can take one 5-foot step either before, during, or after the action."

When you stand up you are not moving from the place you are, so you are not moving up to your speed to any distance. You are allowed to 5-foot step.

It's a similar case when you use your move to mount/dismount.

On an slightly off-tangent note (I don't think this one will go too far), what do people think about house-ruling movement while prone?

We have a house-rule that movement while prone is possible at half-speed (which does not provoke an AOO) as we look at it from the standpoint of difficult terrain. It does take a certain bite out of trip attempts, but after that horrible experience with the trip-oriented monk our group hasn't complained in the slightest. This also ensures (1) that they can't use the 5-feet of movement, and (2) at a bare minimum standing up is a full-round action (move action to shift five feet or more, move equivalent to stand up).

For me, standing up from prone is a movement . . . you are rising up. Therefore no 5-foot step may follow.

1} By definition you end your stand-up action in the same square that you originated in. The game doesn't subdivide squares below the 5ft gradation. You have not moved any more than digging around in your pack is considering having moved.

2} Standing up as an action already specifically calls for an attack of opportunity. If standing up is movement that is not a 5ft step, then that movement must also provoke an attack of opportunity. You technically should be imposing two AoO on your players. One for committing an action the book says deserves one, and a second one for the action you are inferring.

3} Prone is bad enough, and standing up is bad enough. Neither needs to be any worse for a character.

On an slightly off-tangent note (I don't think this one will go too far), what do people think about house-ruling movement while prone?

We have a house-rule that movement while prone is possible at half-speed (which does not provoke an AOO) as we look at it from the standpoint of difficult terrain. It does take a certain bite out of trip attempts, but after that horrible experience with the trip-oriented monk our group hasn't complained in the slightest. This also ensures (1) that they can't use the 5-feet of movement, and (2) at a bare minimum standing up is a full-round action (move action to shift five feet or more, move equivalent to stand up).

There's a rogue talent for that, IIRC.

(edit)Yep, here:

Rogue Crawl (Ex): While prone, a rogue with this ability can move at half speed. This movement provokes attacks of opportunity as normal. A rogue with this talent can take a 5-foot step while crawling.

If you give this to everyone you're devaluating the rogue class.
You should give rogues something to compensate then.

There's a rogue talent for that, IIRC.

There is.

It's nerfed some by our house-rule but the bonus it gives you is the ability to 5-foot step while prone. We allow rogues with that talent to avoid the AOO (as in our house-rule) which makes it still pretty good.

[Edit with more detail]
The way we run it is as follows:
Normal people can only move half-speed while prone with no AOO. Five foot steps aren't allowed. A rogue with this talent can do a 5-foot step while prone without an AOO (instead of just half-speed movement). It gives them the edge in allowing them to stand up and respond more easily.

Best fix? No. But as I said, we've had some really bad experience with trips and try to give people at least a chance to respond against a trip-monkey.

I see.

I once saw a similar house rule used but the DM made it take a full-round action for a creature to move 5' away from the tripper without provoking the AoO, and that was in 3.5 when the tripper got an extra attack with improved trip. With PF trip is harsh but not that much.

You still can move 5 feet while prone with a sucessful Acrobatics check.

In addition, you can move through a threatened square without provoking an attack of opportunity from an enemy by using Acrobatics. When moving in this way, you move at half speed. You can move at full speed by increasing the DC of the check by 10. You cannot use Acrobatics to move past foes if your speed is reduced due to carrying a medium or heavy load or wearing medium or heavy armor. If an ability allows you to move at full speed under such conditions, you can use Acrobatics to move past foes. You can use Acrobatics in this way while prone, but doing so requires a full-round action to move 5 feet, and the DC is increased by 5.

So a prone character with ranks in Acrobatics can use a full round action to Tumble away from an attack while on the ground.

Crawling is also now ONLY a Move Action, though it still provokes an AoO.

I certainly allow this (based on the ruling above). It would technically be a GM call to a degree though - "Stand up from prone" is on the "Move action" chart, along with all the other move-equivalent actions (including "Move"). So while it seems pretty clear, it's a GM call whether "standing" is included in "moving any actual distance".

My call is totally allowed though, I can just see house rule room if needed.

"If you move no actual distance in a round (commonly because you have swapped your move action for one or more equivalent actions), you can take one 5-foot step either before, during, or after the action."

Well there you go, by RAW you can, so I take back my previous statement you can :). But again I say tumbling out would be the best option.

I certainly allow this (based on the ruling above). It would technically be a GM call to a degree though - "Stand up from prone" is on the "Move action" chart, along with all the other move-equivalent actions (including "Move"). So while it seems pretty clear, it's a GM call whether "standing" is included in "moving any actual distance".

My call is totally allowed though, I can just see house rule room if needed.

The problem is that a lot of other stuff that clearly isn't moving is also on that chart. Locating an item like a potion, for instance. Or dropping a shield. If we start saying "things on the move action table" are movement, that includes a bunch of other stuff. On the other hand, if we define movement as "you end up in a different place as measured by the game (ie. square)", then standing up doesn't count.

A GM is always free to rule however he wants, but in case you missed it, my post above is a direct citation from the PHB3.5. Nidho's post below mine is the same citation from the Pathfinder core rulebook. Jason just, left off the examples.

"If you move no distance in a round (commonly because you have swapped your move for one or more equivalent actions, such as standing up), you can take one 5-foot step either before, during, or after the action. For example, if Tordek is on the ground, he can stand up (a move action), move 5 feet (a 5-foot step), and then attack."
PHB3.5 pp.138-39.

A GM is always free to rule however he wants, but in case you missed it, my post above is a direct citation from the PHB3.5. Nidho's post below mine is the same citation from the Pathfinder core rulebook. Jason just, left off the examples.

"If you move no distance in a round (commonly because you have swapped your move for one or more equivalent actions, such as standing up), you can take one 5-foot step either before, during, or after the action. For example, if Tordek is on the ground, he can stand up (a move action), move 5 feet (a 5-foot step), and then attack."
PHB3.5 pp.138-39.

So basically you cant "roll away" I mean if your prone, why crawl.. when you can take a Free 5'... can you not roll out of harms way without provoking an attack of opportunity?

This always comes up because the party has 2 creatures that can trip attack.... which always causes issues, with can I stand up, roll away etc.

I understand rogues have more skill for this scenario, and also understand being tripped is a usefull attack, but there has to be some sort of way your not getting beheaded just to get back to your feet, or move to a safe zone.

So basically you cant "roll away" I mean if your prone, why crawl.. when you can take a Free 5'... can you not roll out of harms way without provoking an attack of opportunity?

This always comes up because the party has 2 creatures that can trip attack.... which always causes issues, with can I stand up, roll away etc.

I understand rogues have more skill for this scenario, and also understand being tripped is a usefull attack, but there has to be some sort of way your not getting beheaded just to get back to your feet, or move to a safe zone.

If you are Prone, you have a few options:

Stand up: This is covered in the combat section under Move actions. It is a move-equivalent action so you can use your Move action to stand up. It provokes an AoO from all foes who threaten you.

Crawl: This is covered in the combat section under Move actions. It is a move-equivalent action so you can use your Move action to crawl 5 feet. It provokes an AoO from all foes who threaten you.

Acrobatics: This is covered in the skills section under Acrobatics. You can attempt an acrobatics check to move through a threatened space without provoking an AoO. If you begin Prone, you require a full round action to move 5 feet and the DC for the skill check is increased by 5. It is not clear about whether you are prone at the end of your move, but I've always ruled that the point of Acrobatics is to remain on your feet - any schmuck can fall/dive/flop onto their face, but you use Acrobatics so you can end up on your feet.

Rogues have a Rogue Talent that is unique to them and fully covered in the Rogue class section.

As for your request that there has got to be some way not to get beheaded when you stand up, well, there really isn't much anyone can do. The best option to not be beheaded is to have enough HP to survive the AoOs when you stand up.

If you really don't think you can survive the risk of standing up, then the only options are to try Acrobatics to spend a whole round moving 5' (your enemies will just move 5' on their turns and hit you with full-round attacks anyway) or stay down there on the ground and fight from prone (you take -4 on melee attacks, but hey, at least you might kill some enemies without provoking any AoOs by standing up).