I do not know if this has been adressed previously. But here I go.

PRPG p.184 Cast a Spell action states:

To cast a spell with a somatic (S) component, you must
gesture freely with at least one hand. You can’t cast a spell
of this type while bound, grappling, or with both your
hands full or occupied.

Instead of attempting to
break or reverse the grapple, you can take any action that
requires only one hand to perform, such as cast a spell or
make an attack with a light or one-handed weapon against
any creature within your reach, including the creature that
is grappling you.

Grappled: A grappled creature is restrained by a creature,
trap, or effect. Grappled creatures cannot move and take a –4
penalty to Dexterity. A grappled creature takes a –2 penalty
on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks, except
those made to grapple or escape a grapple. In addition,
grappled creatures
can take no action that requires two
hands to perform. A grappled character who attempts to cast
a spell must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler’s
CMB + spell level, see page 206), or lose the spell. Grappled
creatures cannot make attacks of opportunity.

Pinned: A pinned creature is tightly bound and can take
few actions. A pinned creature cannot move and is f latfooted.
A pinned character also takes an additional –4
penalty to his Armor Class. A pinned creature is limited
in the actions that it can take. A pinned creature can
always
attempt to free itself, usually through a combat
maneuver check or Escape Artist check. A pinned creature
can take verbal and mental actions, but cannot cast any
spells that require a somatic or material component. A
pinned character who attempts to cast a spell must make
a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler’s CMB + spell
level) or lose the spell. Pinned is a more severe version of
grappled, and their effects
do not stack.

To cast a spell with a somatic (S) component, you must
gesture freely with at least one hand. You can’t cast a spell
of this type while bound, pinned, or with both your
hands full or occupied.

I do not know if this has been adressed previously. But here I go.

If Grappled:

Cast a spell with a verbal component (184)
Cast a spell with a somatic component if one hand free (184)
Cast a spell with material/focus component if one hand free (184)

If doing so - make a concentration check (567)

Instead breaking or reversing a grapple you can cast a spell (as per 184+567)

-------------------------------------------------------------------

If Pinned:

Cast spell with verbal component (568)

If doing so, make Concentration check (568)

The problem is that p. 184 plainly states that you cannot cast spells with S or M if grappled, while p. 201 states that you can.

I think p. 184 meant to state pinned as that would fit with pp. 567 + 568.

Correction to OP. It should have read:

While p. 201 states:

PRPG p. 201 wrote:

Instead of attempting to
break or reverse the grapple, you can take any action that
requires only one hand to perform, such as cast a spell or
make an attack with a light or one-handed weapon against
any creature within your reach, including the creature that
is grappling you.

Specific beats general, precise beats summary. Looks to me like it's only the pinned condition which requires Still Spell now.

Also page 206, (Concentration) adds more confusion:
"Grappling or Pinned: The only spells you can cast
while grappling or pinned are those without somatic
components and whose material components (if any) you
have in hand. Even so, you must make a concentration
check (DC 10 + the grappler’s CMB + the level of the spell
you’re casting) or lose the spell."

The only way I see all these rules can work together is:
- While grappled you can only cast spells without a somatic component.
- If there is no somatic component but there is a material component, you have to have that material in your hand.
- If you are pinned you can't cast any spell with somatic or material components.

The only way I see all these rules can work together is:
- While grappled you can only cast spells without a somatic component.
- If there is no somatic component but there is a material component, you have to have that material in your hand.
- If you are pinned you can't cast any spell with somatic or material components.

But if we draw p. 206 into this it becomes apparent that there is a bit of a mixup when it comes to RAW spellcasting when grappled and7or pinned.

Thanks for your input.

Just to resume, that's how I see it:

To cast a spell with a somatic (S) component, you must
gesture freely with at least one hand. You can’t cast a spell
of this type while bound, grappling, or with both your
hands full or occupied.

Instead of attempting to
break or reverse the grapple, you can take any action that requires only one hand to perform, such as cast a spell or make an attack with a light or one-handed weapon against any creature within your reach, including the creature that is grappling you.

Grappling or Pinned: The only spells you can cast while grappling or pinned are those without somatic components and whose material components (if any) you have in hand. Even so, you must make a concentration check (DC 10 + the grappler’s CMB + the level of the spell
you’re casting) or lose the spell.

Grappled: grappled creatures can take no action that requires two
hands to perform. A grappled character who attempts to cast a spell must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler’s CMB + spell level, see page 206), or lose the spell.

Pinned: A pinned creature can take verbal and mental actions, but cannot cast any spells that require a somatic or material component. A
pinned character who attempts to cast a spell must make a concentration check ...

The problem is that p. 184 plainly states that you cannot cast spells with S or M if grappled, while p. 201 states that you can.

Of course, that still doesn't explain why page 206 disagrees with page 184.

It's weird, but if there is a difference between "grappling" and "grappled" the inconsistancies go away.

You can't cast a spell with somatic if "grappling" or pinned. Specifically, if you are initiating the grapple.

To cast while grappled (not pinned), you need to make a concentration check. Specifically, if someone else initiated a grapple against you.

Additionally, the difference is who gets to deal damage and control the fight, which is why the option exists to reverse the grapple.

So weird, but not inconsistant. The text seems to agree with itself semantically.

You can't cast a spell with somatic if "grappling" or pinned. Specifically, if you are initiating the grapple....
So weird, but not inconsistant. The text seems to agree with itself semantically.

But in p. 206
"Grappling or Pinned: The only spells you can cast
while grappling or pinned are those without somatic
components and whose material components (if any) you
have in hand!

184 says that you cannot cast a spell with a somatic component while grappling

206 says you cannot cast a spell with a somatic component while grappling or pinned

Other than the omission of "pinned" on 184, what's the difference?

angelroble wrote:

But in p. 206
"Grappling or Pinned: The only spells you can cast
while grappling or pinned are those without somatic
components and whose material components (if any) you
have in hand!

Yeah?

184 says that you cannot cast a spell with a somatic component while grappling

206 says you cannot cast a spell with a somatic component while grappling or pinned

Other than the omission of "pinned" on 184, what's the difference?

angelroble wrote:

But in p. 206
"Grappling or Pinned: The only spells you can cast
while grappling or pinned are those without somatic
components and whose material components (if any) you
have in hand!

Yeah?

184 says that you cannot cast a spell with a somatic component while grappling

206 says you cannot cast a spell with a somatic component while grappling or pinned

Other than the omission of "pinned" on 184, what's the difference?

"Instead of attempting to break or reverse the grapple, you can take any action that requires only one hand to perform, such as cast a spell"

The inconsistency is that the grappling maneuver does not list casting a spell in the actions you can take if you are the grappler.

[The inconsistency is that the grappling maneuver does not list casting a spell in the actions you can take if you are the grappler. You can cast a spell only if you are the grappled one (this is, your enemy is who initiated the grapple). P 200 and 201.

"Instead of attempting to break or reverse the grapple, you can take any action that requires only one hand to perform, such as cast a spell"

Is there something that says otherwise?

My assumption is that since only the pinned condition makes any mention of somatic or material components, page 184 should have read as follows: Any thoughts any one?

You can't cast a (S) spell while grappled or pinned.

You can't cast a (M) spell while pinned, but you can while grappled if you have the (M) in your hand (or succeed a grapple check to fetch it from your spell pouch.)

You can't cast a (V) spell while pinned.

If you cast a spell with still spell (removes the S) then you can do so.

But if we draw p. 206 into this it becomes apparent that there is a bit of a mixup when it comes to RAW spellcasting when grappled and7or pinned.

angelroble wrote:

The inconsistency is that the grappling maneuver does not list casting a spell in the actions you can take if you are the grappler.

Well, it doesn't say that casting a spell is one of the possible results of a successful grapple check (only Damage, Pin, Move, or Tie Up happen when you succeed on a grapple check). That doesn't mean that you can't do other things that don't depend on a grapple check, as far as I know (as long as they don't require the use of your hands).

hogarth wrote:

angelroble wrote:

The inconsistency is that the grappling maneuver does not list casting a spell in the actions you can take if you are the grappler.

Well, it doesn't say that casting a spell is one of the possible results of a successful grapple check (only Damage, Pin, Move, or Tie Up happen when you succeed on a grapple check). That doesn't mean that you can't do other things that don't depend on a grapple check, as far as I know (as long as they don't require the use of your hands).

Except that you have to spend a standard action to mantain grapple, and that let you with swift action spells.

But yes, under "normal" circumstances, you're using a standard action each round to maintain the grapple and so most spellcasting is out.

[

The Grandfather wrote:

But if we draw p. 206 into this it becomes apparent that there is a bit of a mixup when it comes to RAW spellcasting when grappled and7or pinned.

I don't yet see the mixup you see.

The Grandfather wrote:

The problem is that p. 184 plainly states that you cannot cast spells with S or M if grappled, while p. 201 states that you can.

Specifically, page 184 says you can't cast spells while grappling (not while grappled). In Pathfinder, "grappling" and "grappled" aren't synonymous; the attacker is "grappling" and both the attack and defender are "grappled".

Of course, that still doesn't explain why page 206 disagrees with page 184.

The rules are consistant if somewhat confusing if you miss the grappled/grappling connection.

I would suggest the wording on p. 184 to be chnaged to:

To cast a spell with a somatic (S) component, you must
gesture freely with at least one hand. You can’t cast a spell
of this type while bound, initiating or maintaining a grapple, pinned, or with both your
hands full or occupied.

Thanks a lot for the help.

The Grandfather wrote:

My assumption is that since only the pinned condition makes any mention of somatic or material components, page 184 should have read as follows: Any thoughts any one?

No

You can't cast a (S) spell while grappled or pinned.

You can't cast a (M) spell while pinned, but you can while grappled if you have the (M) in your hand (or succeed a grapple check to fetch it from your spell pouch.)

You can't cast a (V) spell while pinned.

If you cast a spell with still spell (removes the S) then you can do so.

The Grandfather wrote:

But if we draw p. 206 into this it becomes apparent that there is a bit of a mixup when it comes to RAW spellcasting when grappled and7or pinned.

I don't yet see the mixup you see.

James Risner wrote:

The Grandfather wrote:

My assumption is that since only the pinned condition makes any mention of somatic or material components, page 184 should have read as follows: Any thoughts any one?

No

You can't cast a (S) spell while grappled or pinned.

You can't cast a (M) spell while pinned, but you can while grappled if you have the (M) in your hand (or succeed a grapple check to fetch it from your spell pouch.)

You can't cast a (V) spell while pinned.

If you cast a spell with still spell (removes the S) then you can do so.

The Grandfather wrote:

But if we draw p. 206 into this it becomes apparent that there is a bit of a mixup when it comes to RAW spellcasting when grappled and7or pinned.

I don't yet see the mixup you see.

Just to confirm, everybody here agrees on this interpretation? Because we waste a lot of time arguing grappling at my table...

- If you are grappling someone (either initiating or maintaining) you can not cast S or M spells.

- If you are being grappled you can cast spells which require only one free hand (i.e. most S and M spells are allowed).

- If you are pinned you can not cast S or M spells.

- Spell casting while under the pinned or grappled condition always requires Concentration checks.

Not quite.

- If you are grappling someone (either initiating or maintaining) you can not cast S or M spells.

- If you are being grappled you can cast spells which require only one free hand (i.e. most S and M spells are allowed).

- If you are pinned you can not cast S or M spells.

- Spell casting while under the pinned or grappled condition always requires Concentration checks.

But, as a personal feeling, I think this was more an error in the designer's checking, and that they forgot to change "grappling" for "grappled".

For ex. in 3.5, Concentration section:
"Grappling or Pinned. The only spells you can cast while grappling or pinned are those without somatic components and whose material components (if any) you have in hand. Even so, you must make a Concentration check (DC 20 + the level of the spell you’re casting) or lose the spell. "
In 3.P, same section:
"Grappling or Pinned: The only spells you can cast while grappling or pinned are those without somatic components and whose material components (if any) you have in hand. Even so, you must make a concentration check (DC 10 + the grappler’s CMB + the level of the spell
you’re casting) or lose the spell."

The writing is almost the same. Remember that in 3.5, there was no "grappled" condition, but "grappling"; also, while grappling (either you inititated it or not) you couldn't cast a S spell.
It seems weird to me that the Paizo designers included in the Concentration section a rule to deal with spells while grappling (i.e initiating), when this is a very unfrequent situation (swift spell), and that they ruled it so the old text matched exactly the new text, changing the whole meaning of it.

As I said, a personal feeling.

The Grandfather wrote:

Not quite.

- If you are grappling someone (either initiating or maintaining) you can not cast S or M spells.

- If you are being grappled you can cast spells which require only one free hand (i.e. most S and M spells are allowed).

- If you are pinned you can not cast S or M spells.

- Spell casting while under the pinned or grappled condition always requires Concentration checks.

After re-reading this thread and the rules I have to agree that per RAW this is the correct interpretation, and consistent.

But, as a personal feeling, I think this was more an error in the designer's checking, and that they forgot to change "grappling" for "grappled".

For ex. in 3.5, Concentration section:
"Grappling or Pinned. The only spells you can cast while grappling or pinned are those without somatic components and whose material components (if any) you have in hand. Even so, you must make a Concentration check (DC 20 + the level of the spell you’re casting) or lose the spell. "
In 3.P, same section:
"Grappling or Pinned: The only spells you can cast while grappling or pinned are those without somatic components and whose material components (if any) you have in hand. Even so, you must make a concentration check (DC 10 + the grappler’s CMB + the level of the spell
you’re casting) or lose the spell."

The writing is almost the same. Remember that in 3.5, there was no "grappled" condition, but "grappling"; also, while grappling (either you inititated it or not) you couldn't cast a S spell.
It seems weird to me that the Paizo designers included in the Concentration section a rule to deal with spells while grappling (i.e initiating), when this is a very unfrequent situation (swift spell), and that they ruled it so the old text matched exactly the new text, changing the whole meaning of it.

As I said, a personal feeling.

Could a PF rep clarify any of this? please?

Could a PF rep clarify any of this? please?

Official ruling required please

Official ruling required please

stuart haffenden wrote:

Official ruling required please

Repeat, rinse...