can metamagic feats be put on scrolls?

can there be a scroll of empowered fireball?
or max or quicken

can metamagic feats be put on scrolls?

can there be a scroll of empowered fireball?
or max or quicken

Yes they can they just count as a spell of the appropiate modified level when scribed or brewd into a potion r crafted in a wand or staff.

Yes if you have the feats.

But for creation costs it counts as the higher level spell so Max Fireball is a 6th level spell. So CL >= 11 and SL = 6 for Max Fireball.

Also, some metamagic feats are pointless.

No point having a Quickened scroll, for example;

Activating a scroll is a standard action (or the spell's casting time, whichever is longer) and it provokes attacks of opportunity exactly as casting a spell does.

awesome thanx guys

So Paizo opted not to go with WotC's later call to make scrolls and wands cast at the same speed as their spells.

So much for scrolls of featherfall >.>

(Ugh, I am never going to be able to sit down and play at a standard table when I have to ignore so many of the baseline rules for my own games lol)

I certainly don't see anything saying they did that in the 3.5 DMG errata?

And to be fair, most little feather fall trinkets cost roughly 100 gold, not exactly a horrific investment if that's your problem.

A standard action to cast Feather Fall is no biggie. If it's a huge fall, it'll take more than a round. Just grab the scroll somewhen in the fall and cast.

A standard action to cast Feather Fall is no biggie. If it's a huge fall, it'll take more than a round. Just grab the scroll somewhen in the fall and cast.

Would you need a Concentration check?

:)

Featherfall was just an example.

The rule change was made official in the Rules Compendium, but it's MORE than general enough that Paizo could have used it without infringing anything. (Hell it makes more logical sense than the rule the way it is lol)

Just use Craft Wondrous Item and make a feather fall feather token. A little more expensive, maybe, but usable by anyone, and will also work when you're paralyzed, unconscious, or just have no convenient reading light (as would be the case with pit traps where the wicked dungeon designers failed to install track lighting).

I certainly don't see anything saying they did that in the 3.5 DMG errata?

It was Errata, published in Rules Compendium (which unfortunately says "This WotC game product contains no Open Game Content.")

Also, the text in the DMG was ambiguous on this subject. Once could argue the DMG originally could have allowed for fast casting items. I remember the subject being heavily debated whether or not it was a standard action minimum.

So it's not OGL errata? That's just weird.

How many immediate/swift action spells are we finding in the Pathfinder RPG out of curiosity?

Feather Fall for one. We'll exclude scrolls of Quickened spells, since...well that's just silly.

So it's not OGL errata? That's just weird.

How many immediate/swift action spells are we finding in the Pathfinder RPG out of curiosity?

Feather Fall for one. We'll exclude scrolls of Quickened spells, since...well that's just silly.

So... why are scrolls of Quickenned spells silly? You pay more to be able to pop it off quick. I could see a ton of situations I'd like to have access to quickenned scrolls or wands (Although by one of the two possible interpretations Quickened Wands of spells over 0th level don't exist.)

I assume there's a minimum casting time, because you have to unroll the thing and read it. Even if the spell were Quickened, there's the logistics of retrieving it, unrolling it, reading it, having it burn up, shaking the ash off your fingers, and going for your next scroll.

Even with a Handy Haversack, there's a delay in asking for what you want, and getting it, that prevents the casting from two scrolls in a round.
Or if you already had two scrolls in your hand, then it would interfere with your ability to handle them. Like trying to read two newspapers at once.
In the wind.
While being shot at.
While running.
While Tumbling through a swordfight.
Etc.

I played a Wizard with a Handy Haversack for a few years in SCAP, and I took these restrictions to heart; I don't know if the other players noticed (probably not), but I would be trying to predict what my next scroll would be, and setting it up for next round.
I don't know if that was the way everyone else plays, but I certainly imposed that restriction on myself, as being fair and justified.
It sometimes meant that, if it wasn't in my head, or in my hand right now, I'd tell the other PCs to wait their turn, so they did accuse me once or twice of being contrary, but I believe I was playing by the Rules As Intended.
Being able to cast from any scroll, any time would have made a lot of the encounters a cakewalk, instead of a fun challenge.

Maybe when people complain about the uber-ness of the casters, it's partly because their group is handwaving the logistics of swapping items, retrieving components, etc?

Another vote against quick scrolls. The medium just doesn't work for it.

I could get on board with other media, like tattoo on your hand or the inside of your eyelid.

So... why are scrolls of Quickenned spells silly? You pay more to be able to pop it off quick. I could see a ton of situations I'd like to have access to quickenned scrolls or wands (Although by one of the two possible interpretations Quickened Wands of spells over 0th level don't exist.)

They're silly because even if your DM allows you to do it, they're still not a swift action since you have to draw the scroll out as a move action! Obviously you could already have the scroll out, but then your trying to do something cheesy, probably a bunch of expensive scrolls of quickened true strike or something.

:D

kyrt-ryder wrote:

So... why are scrolls of Quickenned spells silly? You pay more to be able to pop it off quick. I could see a ton of situations I'd like to have access to quickenned scrolls or wands (Although by one of the two possible interpretations Quickened Wands of spells over 0th level don't exist.)

They're silly because even if your DM allows you to do it, they're still not a swift action since you have to draw the scroll out as a move action! Obviously you could already have the scroll out, but then your trying to do something cheesy, probably a bunch of expensive scrolls of quickened true strike or something.

:D

Scroll Bandolier. I don't remember where I read the device, but logically it makes alot of sense (and you occasionally see them in various fiction, though it tends a bit more towards ninja anime scrolls than wizardly scrolls).

The one I read held up to 50 scrolls, and you could draw them as free actions.

Also, I don't see any real problem with having a scroll in-hand, if you have it in your hand, then that hand isn't free for anything else (A weapon, handling material components, performing somatic components, etc) so I hardly find it an issue.

Quickenned scrolls of true-strike would be kind of nice, but the fact you need to burn your swift action (and the cost of a 5th level scroll) every turn to get the effect makes them poor choices except when trying to land a finishing blow of sorts, on a foe with an... excessive AC.

I was thinking more of quickenned scrolls that you would use once in a fight and be done with them.

Scroll Bandolier. I don't remember where I read the device, but logically it makes alot of sense (and you occasionally see them in various fiction, though it tends a bit more towards ninja anime scrolls than wizardly scrolls).

The one I read held up to 50 scrolls, and you could draw them as free actions.

I think you're thinking of the Infinite Scroll Case which I think is in the Magic Items Compendium and Magic of Eberron, but I think was originally listed as a freebie on one of the designers websites. I think maybe Sean K. Reynolds.

Can't find a link at the moment.

That seems like a lot of time and money to spend on this kind of thing. Are you sure it wouldn't be cheaper to just throw your gold at the enemies to kill them at that point rather then scribing/buying a bunch of forth level and higher scrolls?

That seems like a lot of time and money to spend on this kind of thing. Are you sure it wouldn't be cheaper to just throw your gold at the enemies to kill them at that point rather then scribing/buying a bunch of forth level and higher scrolls?

That route was more doable for Artificers back in 3.5. Standard half price for making it yourself, half price for an Artisan feat paired with Unbound scroll, -10% for Apprentice: Craftsman, another -25% if your DM allowed cross-setting material for Magical Artisan. You're making scrolls near a sixth of market, and you can apply metamagic to 'em as a class ability.

The Master Scribe prestige class done for someone's homebrewed Shannara-based campaign is one I've found really nicely done and worth wider distribution:

http://www.users.qwest.net/~tlaney7587/Master%20Scribe.pdf

That class needs some sort of cost reduction or something to really make their scrolls more worthwhile and, more importantly, competitive with wands, or to make their scrolls legitimately better (and a +1 to the DC doesn't cut it). A -5% reduction to GP/XP costs in scribing alongside a capstone that lets the Wizard use her own caster level and intelligence score in casting a scroll would make it a legitimately powerful class. As it stands, none of the abilities are really any good at all, to the point where even in 3.5, you could well be better off with more levels in Wizard to get the bonus feat.