The listing is: Versatile Performance (Ex): At 2nd level, a bard can choose one type of Perform skill. He can use his bonus in that skill in place of his bonus in associated skills. When substituting in this way, the bard uses his total Perform skill bonus, including class skill bonus, in place of its associated skill’s bonus, whether or not he has ranks in that skill or if it is a class skill. At 6th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the bard can select an additional type of Perform to substitute.

The types of Perform and their associated skills are: Act (Bluff, Disguise), Comedy (Bluff, Intimidate), Dance (Acrobatics, Fly), Keyboard Instruments (Diplomacy, Intimidate), Oratory (Diplomacy, Sense Motive), Percussion (Handle Animal, Intimidate), Sing (Bluff, Sense Motive), String (Bluff, Diplomacy), and Wind (Diplomacy, Handle Animal).

The debate is:
Does Versatile Performance Automatically allow a bard to substitute his Performance skill rank in place of the related skill rank automatically or does he have to actually 'perform' to get the increased value (assuming he jacks his performance skill up)? That is...does he actually need to sing, dance, string, wind, etc.... or just automatically substitute his Versatile Performance skill anytime? All it states is: "He can use his bonus in that skill in place of his bonus in associated skills."

For example, let's say that a bard maxes out his perform skill and does not put any skill pips into specific skills like Dance or sing. Now in combat he wants to bluff (total rank is say 5), but using Sing (total rank is say 15) under versatile performance, he wants to substitute his bluff and jack it to a 15 (without actually singing) because his argument is that is the whole point of Versatile Performance.

I would contend that you would need to actually perform an act of singing (Bluff or sense motive) to gain the Versatile Performance rank or dance in order to gain the performance level of acrobatics or fly.

His argument for dance would be that since his performance skill is so high, Versatile Performance means that his dancing is so high (took at 6th level)therefore he is so skilled, that he can always use Perform in place of a normal acrobatics check since dancers are just more agile.

Please see if we can get a clarification. Thanks.

Unless errata is added, the Bard does not need to "Perform" to get the listed bonus, as it is not stated as a requirement anywhere in Versatile Performance.

Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys

For example, let's say that a bard maxes out his perform skill and does not put any skill pips into specific skills like Dance or sing.

Could Versitile Performance be used to fulfuill pre-reqs for feats and or PrC's???

--Vrock of Love

Versatile Performance only allows someone to substitute the respective Perform check for the listed skills. It does not allow them to qualify for prerequisites unless they actually have ranks in the listed skills.

For example, a Bard with a +12 Perform (Dance) could use that bonus when making Acrobatic or Fly checks. If something requires 5 ranks in Acrobatics, however, the bard would still need actual ranks in Acrobatics to qualify.

Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys

My last question is, would someone substituting their skill ranks qualified if they happen to be trained in the skill.

Example:

Bluff is a bardic class skill, if I put a rank in I get +3 from the training bonus.

If I have 0 ranks in Bluff, but 9 ranks in Perform Sing (which gives its ranks to both bluff and sense motive) would I have 12 effective ranks (the training bonus) or only 9?

My last question is, would someone substituting their skill ranks qualified if they happen to be trained in the skill.

Example:

Bluff is a bardic class skill, if I put a rank in I get +3 from the training bonus.

If I have 0 ranks in Bluff, but 9 ranks in Perform Sing (which gives its ranks to both bluff and sense motive) would I have 12 effective ranks (the training bonus) or only 9?

If your bonus to Perform is +12 after all feats, bonuses, ranks, etc., then that is the bonus you would use on the two applicable skills.

Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys

My last question is, would someone substituting their skill ranks qualified if they happen to be trained in the skill.

Example:

Bluff is a bardic class skill, if I put a rank in I get +3 from the training bonus.

If I have 0 ranks in Bluff, but 9 ranks in Perform Sing (which gives its ranks to both bluff and sense motive) would I have 12 effective ranks (the training bonus) or only 9?

Meaning his ranks and bonus in bluff (for example) are inrelavent, only his bonus to his perform(whatever) check matters and is used.

Dissinger wrote:

My last question is, would someone substituting their skill ranks qualified if they happen to be trained in the skill.

Example:

Bluff is a bardic class skill, if I put a rank in I get +3 from the training bonus.

If I have 0 ranks in Bluff, but 9 ranks in Perform Sing (which gives its ranks to both bluff and sense motive) would I have 12 effective ranks (the training bonus) or only 9?

It doesn't give it's ranks, you use the total bonus you have for Perform in place of the other two.

If your bonus to Perform is +12 after all feats, bonuses, ranks, etc., then that is the bonus you would use on the two applicable skills.

Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys

As written Versatile literally translates to "Roll a Perform X check, count it as a skill Y check." Correct?

Nethys wrote:

Dissinger wrote:

My last question is, would someone substituting their skill ranks qualified if they happen to be trained in the skill.

Example:

Bluff is a bardic class skill, if I put a rank in I get +3 from the training bonus.

If I have 0 ranks in Bluff, but 9 ranks in Perform Sing (which gives its ranks to both bluff and sense motive) would I have 12 effective ranks (the training bonus) or only 9?

It doesn't give it's ranks, you use the total bonus you have for Perform in place of the other two.

If your bonus to Perform is +12 after all feats, bonuses, ranks, etc., then that is the bonus you would use on the two applicable skills.

Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys

Thanks Nethys, that's pretty much what I thought, but part of me was still waiting for the other shoe to drop.

As written Versatile literally translates to "Roll a Perform X check, count it as a skill Y check." Correct?

Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys

If I'm getting a bonus to Acrobatics say, via the halfling racial ability or the Acrobatics feat, are those also considered to be part of the bonus overwritten by Versatile Performance, or not?

Rubia

Dissinger wrote:

Nethys wrote:

Dissinger wrote:

My last question is, would someone substituting their skill ranks qualified if they happen to be trained in the skill.

Example:

Bluff is a bardic class skill, if I put a rank in I get +3 from the training bonus.

If I have 0 ranks in Bluff, but 9 ranks in Perform Sing (which gives its ranks to both bluff and sense motive) would I have 12 effective ranks (the training bonus) or only 9?

It doesn't give it's ranks, you use the total bonus you have for Perform in place of the other two.

If your bonus to Perform is +12 after all feats, bonuses, ranks, etc., then that is the bonus you would use on the two applicable skills.

Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys

Thanks Nethys, that's pretty much what I thought, but part of me was still waiting for the other shoe to drop.

As written Versatile literally translates to "Roll a Perform X check, count it as a skill Y check." Correct?

Essentially, yes. If you need to make an Acrobatics check to move through a threatened square, you could use your Perform (Dance) bonus in place of Acrobatics (assuming Dance is a VP you chose). If a feat, prestige class, crafting requirement, etc. requires 5 ranks in Acrobatics, then you actually need 5 ranks in Acrobatics.

Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys

If I've got Versatile Performance (Oratory = Sense Motive & Diplomacy), and I've got situational Diplomacy bonuses from boons or traits or things like that, can I apply them to my Performance check, or do I lose them when I trade one total bonus for the other?

If the answer is "I lose them," I'm starting to think Versatile Performance needs some work. The basic idea of swapping ranks it great. Being able to switch base stats to Charisma and make dump stats easier is really nice (maybe too nice). Avoiding armor check penalties to Acrobatics because you're using Perform, which doesn't take armor check penalties is somewhat illogical. But having to give up all your other bonuses really puts the utility of this ability in question.

Another gripe - I can wait a level and not take any ranks in Sense Motive or Diplomacy at 1st because I know I'm going to get them via Versatile Performance at 2nd. But am I really going to wait until 6th level to put any ranks into the skills I get through my second Versatile Performance? And If I don't wait, I just wasted a bunch of skill points.

I know it's not, but maybe the rule ought to be swap Perform (Oratory) ranks for Diplomacy and Sense Motive ranks, but not total bonus for total bonus.

Avoiding armor check penalties to Acrobatics because you're using Perform, which doesn't take armor check penalties is somewhat illogical. But having to give up all your other bonuses really puts the utility of this ability in question.

Consensus in other threads seemed to be that it really was "total bonus" - meaning you use everything from your Perform instead of everything from your other skill, and that seemed to mean ignoring any normal penalties you had. I'd love to get an official clarification on this as it's come up in several threads.

Nethys, oh god of knowledge, you around? Or Jason?

If I've got Versatile Performance (Oratory = Sense Motive & Diplomacy), and I've got situational Diplomacy bonuses from boons or traits or things like that, can I apply them to my Performance check, or do I lose them when I trade one total bonus for the other?

Yes this means if you took skill focus(diplomacy) that is now useless... however if you took skill focus(oratory) instead you would get it on oratory, diplomacy, and sense motive (which would be using your Cha mod instead of wisdom).

Is it a trade off? Yes. However it is one I'll take any day of the week.

Mosaic wrote:

If I've got Versatile Performance (Oratory = Sense Motive & Diplomacy), and I've got situational Diplomacy bonuses from boons or traits or things like that, can I apply them to my Performance check, or do I lose them when I trade one total bonus for the other?

Total bonus for total bonus... it's fairly explict on that, and yes you lose any bonuses to the normal skill, but keep any bonuses (aka TOTAL bonus) to the perform skill.

Yes this means if you took skill focus(diplomacy) that is now useless... however if you took skill focus(oratory) instead you would get it on oratory, diplomacy, and sense motive (which would be using your Cha mod instead of wisdom).

Is it a trade off? Yes. However it is one I'll take any day of the week.

When substituting in this way, the bard uses his total Perform skill bonus, including class skill bonus, in place of its associated skill’s bonus, whether or not he has ranks in that skill or if it is a class skill.

As to why you would include some modifiers (such as stat bonuses, feats, and traits), these seem likely to be what is meant by "total". That is, your "total skill" in one instance is replaced with your "total skill" in another. Other modifiers are added or subtracted from your "total skill" to determine your final modifier. But an armor check penalty isn't part of your "total skill". It's a modifier to your skill.

This is supported by the Skills section. The argument to add Feats and Traits is weaker than a simple switch of ranks, stat modifier, and class skill bonus. But given this advantage is in line with what the class ability is intended to give, I think it's reasonable to include them.

Finally, given that removing armor check penalties (or any circumstance modifiers) would be an even larger advantage (or in some cases an odd and non-intuitive disadvantage) it would have been appropriate for them to explicitly state this. Since they did not, it is more reasonable to interpret the rule as not including this. That is, *because* it is not "explicitly" stated.

With all that said, it'd be nice to get an official clarification on exactly what is intended to be substituted.

stuff

When you use Versatile Performance to make a skill check using Perform, and you would get situational bonuses to that check based on what you're doing... I think that they should probably stack. The point of the ability is to basically give the Bard the ability to spread out his skill ranks more efficiently. This, plus the way bards use knowledge skills now, are meant to make them one of the better skill classes. We could, I suppose, have gone a "lazy" route and simply given them 10 skill ranks/level, but this way feels more interesting and it places a larger amount of focus on the Perform skill, which is important.

So!

If, for example, you put on a pair of boots of elvenkind, you get a +5 bonus on your Acrobatics check. In games I run, i would be completely fine with letting a bard with Versatile Performance (dance) make those dance checks to emulate Acrobatics and would allow the bonus from the boots to apply.

aptinuviel wrote:

stuff

So you are saying that even though it's not explicitly stated in one area it's ok to add it in (feats that add to skills... which by the way give a SKILL BONUS which is part of the TOTAL skill bonus... it's not "total but not counting feats") but not in another because it's not explicitly stated that it isn't subtracted?

In this case, the term used is "total skill" which is not a defined term in the rules. So we don't know what is involved in this "total skill". I find it *more* reasonable to include all those factors that are involved in the skill of the character. That is, the character's ranks, class bonus, stat bonus, feat bonus, and trait bonuses. I would not include external modifiers, such as armor check penalties.

Further, I suggest checking out the modifiers to the Bluff check. Under your interpretation we could have a situation in which a character makes up a "far-fetched" lie and then uses their perform skill with no modifier for it being a "far-fetched" lie, no matter how ridiculous the lie is. Under my interpretation, this wouldn't happen. You would add or subtract all situational modifiers to the character's "total skill".

I'm not saying that your interpretation doesn't fit the language used. What I am saying is that both of our interpretations are supported by the language. Mine happens to be a simpler interpretation. If you can find any problems that would arise when using this interpretation that wouldn't under yours I'd be happy to read them.

When you use Versatile Performance to make a skill check using Perform, and you would get situational bonuses to that check based on what you're doing... I think that they should probably stack. The point of the ability is to basically give the Bard the ability to spread out his skill ranks more efficiently. This, plus the way bards use knowledge skills now, are meant to make them one of the better skill classes. We could, I suppose, have gone a "lazy" route and simply given them 10 skill ranks/level, but this way feels more interesting and it places a larger amount of focus on the Perform skill, which is important.

So!

If, for example, you put on a pair of boots of elvenkind, you get a +5 bonus on your Acrobatics check. In games I run, i would be completely fine with letting a bard with Versatile Performance (dance) make those dance checks to emulate Acrobatics and would allow the bonus from the boots to apply.

I think a similar mechanic here would have helped offset the problem. Perhaps being able to "shift" skill ranks equal to the level of the character at each of these stages? I hesitate to add rules on where you can move the skills to/from only because I think it would take several lines of text to explain that rule. A simple rule that gives a little more flexibility to deal with the problem and doesn't lend itself to extreme abuse (in my opinion, at least) would be better.

Heck, I'd suggest a similar mechanic for the Rogue if only because it's a "cool" gimmick for a skill based class that gives them an edge that doesn't break the game.

(I should also note that this issue isn't the same as the one I discussed previously. I know that's rather obvious, but given the closeness of the posts I thought I'd point it out.)

One thing I'm gonna try to get into the Advanced player's Guide is some sort of mechanic that allows a bard to "cash out" any skill ranks he spent on skills that, later on, get "replaced" by a versatile performance.

Similar to how a sorcerer can unlearn a spell, really.

What about a new perform that is not listed yet. I have a bard who is a puppeter. His skill is low so he is using hand puppets now, but will eventually upgrade to marionettes. Should versatile work for this type of perform, and if so, for what skills?

Yes, it should. Use skills that seem related and try to err on the side of social skills (Perform: Dance is the sole skill that has entirely combat-related applications). For Puppeteering, I would suggest Sleight of Hand and either Bluff (for throwing one's voice) or Sense Motive (for sensing the mood of the crowd).

Okay, so just to be clear...

Verasatile Performance includes:
• Ability score: use Cha instead of the original score
• Ranks: use Perform ranks instead of rank in Diplomacy, Sense Motive, Acrobatics, etc.
• +3 because Perform is a class skill
• Bonuses: any random bonuses to Perform, like Skill Focus

But...

• Situational bonuses and penalties to the original skill still apply and get added to/subtracted from the Perform check, things like magic items, boons, pre-disposed favorable attitudes, etc.

How about things like traits (like "Fashionable" that grants +1 Bluff, Diplomacy and Sense Motive, or "Fiendish Presence" that grants +1 to Diplomacy and Sense Motive), Orcs' bonus to Intimidate, Rangers' favored enemy bonuses to Sense Motive, Ranger/Druids' bonus to Handle Animal their companions, spellcasters with viper familiars' bonus to Bluff, spellcasters with bat familiars' bonus to Fly, small characters' penalty to jumping with Acrobatics, armor check penalties to Acrobatics, etc. These all seem like things that would logically transfer to a Versatile Performance skill check. Would these all be considered "situational"?

I'm assuming masterwork instruments would not assist a Versatile Performance check as you are not actually performing, just using your performance skills in other areas of life.

Yes, it should. Use skills that seem related and try to err on the side of social skills (Perform: Dance is the sole skill that has entirely combat-related applications). For Puppeteering, I would suggest Sleight of Hand and either Bluff (for throwing one's voice) or Sense Motive (for sensing the mood of the crowd).

Okay, so just to be clear...

Verasatile Performance includes:
• Ability score: use Cha instead of the original score
• Ranks: use Perform ranks instead of rank in Diplomacy, Sense Motive, Acrobatics, etc.
• +3 because Perform is a class skill
• Bonuses: any random bonuses to Perform, like Skill Focus

But...

• Situational bonuses and penalties to the original skill still apply and get added to/subtracted from the Perform check, things like magic items, boons, pre-disposed favorable attitudes, etc.

How about things like traits (like "Fashionable" that grants +1 Bluff, Diplomacy and Sense Motive, or "Fiendish Presence" that grants +1 to Diplomacy and Sense Motive), Orcs' bonus to Intimidate, Rangers' favored enemy bonuses to Sense Motive, Ranger/Druids' bonus to Handle Animal their companions, spellcasters with viper familiars' bonus to Bluff, spellcasters with bat familiars' bonus to Fly, small characters' penalty to jumping with Acrobatics, armor check penalties to Acrobatics, etc. These all seem like things that would logically transfer to a Versatile Performance skill check. Would these all be considered "situational"?

I'm assuming masterwork instruments would not assist a Versatile Performance check as you are not actually performing, just using your performance skills in other areas of life.

And yeah, the bonus granted by a masterwork tool or instrument would not assist a Versatile Performance check because you're using that tool to enhance an actual performance, not a substituted skill. I'd certainly allow trait bonuses to stack as well; I'd even be tempted to let bonuses from Skill focus or other feats stack.

Basically... I think of it as basically transplanting your ranks in the perform skill directly into the two other skills as "phantom" ranks that overlap with any ranks you currently have in those other skills. You take the higher of the two and go from there.

Essentially, yes. If you need to make an Acrobatics check to move through a threatened square, you could use your Perform (Dance) bonus in place of Acrobatics (assuming Dance is a VP you chose). If a feat, prestige class, crafting requirement, etc. requires 5 ranks in Acrobatics, then you actually need 5 ranks in Acrobatics.

Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys

I got confused by James answer. If a bard use perform to emulate Acrobatics he is using perform, not acrobatics or did I misread James?

When you use Versatile Performance to make a skill check using Perform, and you would get situational bonuses to that check based on what you're doing... I think that they should probably stack. The point of the ability is to basically give the Bard the ability to spread out his skill ranks more efficiently. This, plus the way bards use knowledge skills now, are meant to make them one of the better skill classes. We could, I suppose, have gone a "lazy" route and simply given them 10 skill ranks/level, but this way feels more interesting and it places a larger amount of focus on the Perform skill, which is important.

So!

If, for example, you put on a pair of boots of elvenkind, you get a +5 bonus on your Acrobatics check. In games I run, i would be completely fine with letting a bard with Versatile Performance (dance) make those dance checks to emulate Acrobatics and would allow the bonus from the boots to apply.

stuff

Zurai wrote:

Yes, it should. Use skills that seem related and try to err on the side of social skills (Perform: Dance is the sole skill that has entirely combat-related applications). For Puppeteering, I would suggest Sleight of Hand and either Bluff (for throwing one's voice) or Sense Motive (for sensing the mood of the crowd).

Absolutely. I'd say Sleight of Hand and Bluff.

For Puppeteering, I would suggest Sleight of Hand and either Bluff (for throwing one's voice) or Sense Motive (for sensing the mood of the crowd).