So, this situation came up in a recent game, with a massively opposing disagreement on what RAW said...and within the single situation comes a few sub-questions.

First: The situation: A harpy was using its Captivating Song (SU) ability. 4 of 6 party members failed, fortunately the Bard was not one of those people...unfortunately said bard had 0 ranks in any of the skills that provide countersong. The DM ruled that since the bard was providing a 'temporary, round by round' defense that he had to roll a different number for each round, that this protection would only last for rounds during which he made his roll..IE if he either failed his roll or stopped countersinging altogether, the original, ongoing effect would resume....or in other words, he was merely suppressing the effects of an ongoing ability.

Rules questions involved on this:

1: Does a bard's countersong ability in fact work this way, the new save only applying for that round? In my opinion, that didn't seem _clearly_ either true or false as RAW, but that I had thought it pretty clear to be wrong by RAI.

Now, for the stickler that kept me arguing for too long...

#2. Assuming the answer to question #1 is yes, the specific ability in question, Harpy's Captivating song includes the following phrase: "A creature that successfully saves is not subject to the same harpy's song for 24 hours". I strongly feel that that means, even if the new bard's saving throw (Which is the way bard's countersong is worded, as granting a new save) only works for that one round, that RAW would mean that a single success on that would trigger the harpy's "make a save and become immune for 24 hours." Again, the DM disagreed.

In ordinary situations, I'm 100% of the opinion that even if you think the DM is dead wrong on a RAW situation, you bring it up once then move on...this one just happened to both threaten an immediate TPK due to other circumstances....and have another circumstance that I'm not free to bring up on an open forum to lead me to care more than a 'normal' game.

Anyhow, thoughts/opinions? I'd of course _highly_ appreciate an official designer response, but even well reasoned, cogent discussions from the usual crew'll be useful to bring up to the group I play in. (Like I trust you folks usually provide!).

Thanks in advance.

1: Does a bard's countersong ability in fact work this way, the new save only applying for that round?

No. In a situation where an effect is merely suppressed, that fact is always called out quite clearly. Furthermore, the unqualified term "saving throw" would not be used. Either it would be called a "special saving throw" or it would be spelled out as a Perform check against the effect's save DC.

RAW would mean that a single success on that would trigger the harpy's "make a save and become immune for 24 hours."

Correct. That's not some special weak version of a saving throw, it's a saving throw. Exactly the same as the one you made when targeted by the effect, exactly as effective in every way. This should be obvious even without other references due to the fact that countersong explicitly provides no save against things which don't normally have one.

1: Does a bard's countersong ability in fact work this way, the new save only applying for that round? In my opinion, that didn't seem _clearly_ either true or false as RAW, but that I had thought it pretty clear to be wrong by RAI.

Now, for the stickler that kept me arguing for too long...

#2. Assuming the answer to question #1 is yes, the specific ability in question, Harpy's Captivating song includes the following phrase: "A creature that successfully saves is not subject to the same harpy's song for 24 hours". I strongly feel that that means, even if the new bard's saving throw (Which is the way bard's countersong is worded, as granting a new save) only works for that one round, that RAW would mean that a single success on that would trigger the harpy's "make a save and become immune for 24 hours." Again, the DM disagreed.

I think the rules for countersong are quite clear. If the PCs (or whomever the countersong is for) are under the affect of an ongoing sonic-based effect, the countersong grants them a new save every round. And as Tejon pointed out, this is a new, full-blown saving throw. If a successful save would negate the effect completely, a successful Perform check in a countersong will do just as well.

Note however that the Countersong would not grant an additional save in the 1 round after the Captivating Song ends. The sonic portion of the effect is no longer ongoing, so there's nothing to countersong.

Note however that the Countersong would not grant an additional save in the 1 round after the Captivating Song ends. The sonic portion of the effect is no longer ongoing, so there's nothing to countersong.

That's 3.5 thinking. No such limitation anymore. ;)

If a creature within range of the countersong is already under the effect of a noninstantaneous sonic or language-dependent magical attack, it gains another saving throw against the effect each round it hears the countersong

This effect continues for as long as the harpy sings and for 1 round thereafter.

ZappoHisbane wrote:

Note however that the Countersong would not grant an additional save in the 1 round after the Captivating Song ends. The sonic portion of the effect is no longer ongoing, so there's nothing to countersong.

That's 3.5 thinking. No such limitation anymore. ;)

PRD - Bard - Countersong wrote:

If a creature within range of the countersong is already under the effect of a noninstantaneous sonic or language-dependent magical attack, it gains another saving throw against the effect each round it hears the countersong

PRD - Harpy - Captivating Song wrote:

This effect continues for as long as the harpy sings and for 1 round thereafter.

I stand corrected. :)

My understanding is however that since the perform skills that work for countersong are not usable untrained your bard should have been out of luck.

Your DM was being nice. Your bard was being sloppy.

Sigurd

My understanding is however that since the perform skills that work for countersong are not usable untrained your bard should have been out of luck.

Your DM was being nice. Your bard was being sloppy.

Sigurd

Not true. The Perform skill can be used untrained, and there are no minimum Rank requirements for the Bardic Performance abilities. Someone else is still thinking 3.5. :)

You are correct. Thank you.

Not true. The Perform skill can be used untrained, and there are no minimum Rank requirements for the Bardic Performance abilities. Someone else is still thinking 3.5. :)