Preparing Extra Cantrips (0 Level spells)

It states in the rules that if you use a metamagic feat on a 0 level spell you can only cast it once and then that slot is expended.

What about if you just use one of your 1st level spell slots to prepare and extra 0 level spell? Not applying any metamagic feats just preparing it as a normal cantrip. Can you then cast it as a 0 level spell an unlimited number of times?

What about if you just use one of your 1st level spell slots to prepare and extra 0 level spell? Not applying any metamagic feats just preparing it as a normal cantrip. Can you then cast it as a 0 level spell an unlimited number of times?

I would say no, as there is a 1st level spell slot used for that, which are, by definition, "fire and forget" affairs. The cantrip is in effect prepared as a spell.

Stefan

By my reading of the wizard's Cantrips ability, the only spells that are "not expended when cast and may be used again" are 0-level spells that are prepared as cantrips within the "Spells per Day" listed on the table - that is, in his 0-level slots. This also means that if a wizard somehow prepares a spell higher than 0 level in a 0-level slot, it doesn't count as a cantrip either.

Since the number of cantrip slots doesn't increase by high Intelligence nor specialisation, they are intentionally a more limited resource than 1st level spells, so it wouldn't be fair to give up one 1st level slot for an extra unlimited-use cantrip. I might allow it for two 1st level slots.

The only spell slots with unlimited castings are the 0th level spell slots. First level spell slots can be used to prepare an additional 0th level spell or a metamagic 0th spell, but the 1st lvl spell slots can only be expended once, meaning the spell prepped there can only be cast once.

Interesting, you could also use Mnemonic Enhancer to gain additional 0 lvl spells.

It states in the rules that if you use a metamagic feat on a 0 level spell you can only cast it once and then that slot is expended.

What about if you just use one of your 1st level spell slots to prepare and extra 0 level spell? Not applying any metamagic feats just preparing it as a normal cantrip. Can you then cast it as a 0 level spell an unlimited number of times?

I'm going to buck the trend here and say, "yes." A first level spell in a second level slot behaves in all ways like a first level spell. I think a cantrip should act the same.

And really, why not? It's a cantrip.

eh... detect magic, mending, read magic, message, light, stabilize, bleed.

"They're just cantrips" doesn't really cut it. Being able to do these at will is a game changer. I'm not sure how drastic it is, but to say that because it's level 0 it's inherently a weaker choice, therefore it wouldn't make a balance issue seems inherently naive.

eh... detect magic, mending, read magic, message, light, stabilize, bleed.

"They're just cantrips" doesn't really cut it. Being able to do these at will is a game changer. I'm not sure how drastic it is, but to say that because it's level 0 it's inherently a weaker choice, therefore it wouldn't make a balance issue seems inherently naive.

You can already do all of those at will. Like it or not, that's part of the PF ruleset. Being able to do one more is no big deal, especially at the cost of a higher level spell slot.

While I think it would be nice to have more, picking the ones you have ready for the day is part of playing a wizard. Talk to the other people in your party: do you all need to have light memorized? 0 level wands are also dirt cheep. By the time you burn through 50 charges, you will be a few levels higher and be able to get a new one with your pocket change

Brandon Tomlinson wrote:

eh... detect magic, mending, read magic, message, light, stabilize, bleed.

"They're just cantrips" doesn't really cut it. Being able to do these at will is a game changer. I'm not sure how drastic it is, but to say that because it's level 0 it's inherently a weaker choice, therefore it wouldn't make a balance issue seems inherently naive.

You can already do all of those at will. Like it or not, that's part of the PF ruleset. Being able to do one more is no big deal, especially at the cost of a higher level spell slot.

Then why is the use of cantrips limited at all to the numbers given? If I follow your reasoning, any spellcaster should be able to cast all the cantrips he knows at will, if it is no big deal.

Stefan

Mynameisjake wrote:

You can already do all of those at will. Like it or not, that's part of the PF ruleset. Being able to do one more is no big deal, especially at the cost of a higher level spell slot.

Then why is the use of cantrips limited at all to the numbers given? If I follow your reasoning, any spellcaster should be able to cast all the cantrips he knows at will, if it is no big deal.

Stefan

There is a pretty huge jump from saying "Trading in one higher level spell slot to cast an extra cantrip per day doesn't really threaten game balance" (Which is more or less what Jake suggested) and "Lets give Wizards TWENTY-ONE 0-level slots!" The second statement is basically what you accused him of suggesting and is obviously pretty unbalancing. Also, Sorcerers, Bards, Inquisitors, and Oracles can already cast all of the 0-level spells they know at will. And they eventually learn more of them than the Wizard/Cleric/Witch has 0-level slots. I don't really see people clamoring for the Sorcerer to get his 0-level spells reduced so he stops outshining the Wizard, do you?

I can see a higher level Wizard being willing to sacrifice a level 1 spell slot or two so he can have an extra cantrip. As it is right now, the RAW isn't particularly clear on this, but it is also a pretty simple decision to make as a GM whether or not to allow players in your game to swap a 1st level slot for an extra cantrip slot. I don't really see a decision either way having a huge effect on actual play at the table.

My GM's have always allowed me to use higher-level spell slots to memorize lower-level spells. I've never tried it with a cantrip, but I assume at worst I'd be able to do it, and then after casting the cantrip the slot would be expended for the day, like any other spell.

The rules I can find that apply to this are the follow.

1) 0 level spells can be cast an unlimited number of time.

2) A higher level slot can be used to prepare/cast a lower level spell.

3) A metamagic 0 level spell takes up a slot of the adjusted level and is consumed when cast (can not be cast an unlimited number of times.) So no unlimited Touch of Fatigue (Reach) cantrips.

Though really if someone wanted to maximize a Ray of Frost (3pts of damage) by spending a 3rd level slot, I would have little problem letting him do it.

Same thing with spending a 1st level slot for an Extended Resistance. Comparing the metamagic version of 0 level spells to spells of the equal level and the 0 level spells in most cases fall well short of the power level of those spells.

The only one that I think is even near game breaking or balance shifting is the Reach Touch of Fatigue for a 1st level slot.

The only rules I can find on this matter are as follows.

1) 0Level spells can be cast an unlimited number of times per day.

2) Higher level spell slots can be used to prepare/cast lower level spells.

3) Metamagic'd 0 level spells take up a higher level slot and are consumed when casting. (So no Reach Touch of Fatigue cast an unlimited number of times per day.)

Personally I think if someone wants to metamagic a cantrip more power too them. If you compare the power of a metamagic cantrip to a spell of the actual level of the slot you are using the cantrip falls way short. Maximized Ray of Frost? 3 damage! (sure a 10th level invoker could do 8 damage but really, he could fire a crossbow too). Extended Resistance at will? Not really all that. The only one that I think even gets near a balance issue is the Reach Touch of Fatigue.

You know, I am going to have to toss my hat in with the crowd that say they do not go away. Per the RAW it states:

Cantrips: Wizards can prepare a number of cantrips, or 0-level spells, each day, as noted on Table: Wizard under “Spells per Day.” These spells are cast like any other spell, but they are not expended when cast and may be used again. A wizard can prepare a cantrip from a prohibited school, but it uses up two of his available slots (see below).

It does not state that these slots are used like any other spell slot, but that these spells are cast like any other spell, they just do not go away. If it stated slot, then I would make them go away once prepared and cast from a 1-9th level slot.

There is nothing in the Wizard cantrip section that even states that metamagic makes it go away once cast (they did list it in the Summoner and Witch sections though, but I think that maybe the cantrips just work differently, or an errata is upcoming.)

I mean, if a wizard wants to eat up a 7th level slot to be able to cast quickened, maximized rays of frost whenever they want, then go for it. There are better and more powerful things a 13th level wizard could be doing then an extra 3 cold damage at close range a round.

3) Metamagic'd 0 level spells take up a higher level slot and are consumed when casting. (So no Reach Touch of Fatigue cast an unlimited number of times per day.)

Where was this listed? The only place that I could find any reference to how metamagic effects cantrips was for the Summoner and Witch cantrips..

Kalyth wrote:

3) Metamagic'd 0 level spells take up a higher level slot and are consumed when casting. (So no Reach Touch of Fatigue cast an unlimited number of times per day.)

Where was this listed? The only place that I could find any reference to how metamagic effects cantrips was for the Summoner and Witch cantrips..

I tried to find it but cant. I know I read it somewhere. It may have been the witch or summoner section.

If you use a higher level spell slot than needed for a canstrip.

Then the slot is used up when cast, same as any other spell is used up.

Thats the way i see it anyways.

I'm not particularly big on the kind of door this opens.

The way I see it, Cantrips and Orisons aren't proper spells but are almost a separate mechanic. The only way I allow extra cantrips would be for a feat granting an extra cantrip slot.

Sorry, I should have been more clear. I understand how cantrips work (in fact it was a house rule in my 3.5 games). I was more saying the the diversity allowed by not having as hard a choice between detect magic and light or spark can make for unforseen balance issues. But it came out wrong whden I read my post.

Right now I play a druid, and detect magic is one of my always casts. As is guidance, which when we are just walking around a dungeon, I let the gm know I am usually casting guidance on everyone as we traveL (I play an old crone style druid, so the guidance is generally me giving annoying advice in some infuriating manor).

My point is thatt while quite a bit from broken, cantrips are weird and the slots shouldn't be casually granted without consideration.

Must admit that I hadn't considered meta-ed cantrips. I'm not really sure if I'd treat them as a higher level spell, or allow for unlimited use.

Can anyone think of a combination of cantrip + Meta that would be broken if unlimited castings were allowed?

Must admit that I hadn't considered meta-ed cantrips. I'm not really sure if I'd treat them as a higher level spell, or allow for unlimited use.

Can anyone think of a combination of cantrip + Meta that would be broken if unlimited castings were allowed?

Using a heightened light spell to counter darkness all day long. It would be a higher level light spell, so should work. Not really broken, but if you are dealing with a lot of drow/shadows/dark things could make a massive difference.

Some of the new metamagic feats in the AGP might be abusable if spammed, but I'd need more then the one cup of coffee I'm running on to sift through the combos

Must admit that I hadn't considered meta-ed cantrips. I'm not really sure if I'd treat them as a higher level spell, or allow for unlimited use.

Can anyone think of a combination of cantrip + Meta that would be broken if unlimited castings were allowed?

Not really. I can see wizard/rogues getting a small boost being able to use quickened ray of frost for sneak attack damage all day long, but that's hardly broken.

Mynameisjake wrote:

Must admit that I hadn't considered meta-ed cantrips. I'm not really sure if I'd treat them as a higher level spell, or allow for unlimited use.

Can anyone think of a combination of cantrip + Meta that would be broken if unlimited castings were allowed?

Using a heightened light spell to counter darkness all day long. It would be a higher level light spell, so should work. Not really broken, but if you are dealing with a lot of drow/shadows/dark things could make a massive difference.

As a higher level spell, it WOULD be consumed RAW. There's nothing suggesting a 3rd level Light spell can be cast unlimited times per day.

Do people really cast canstrip all day long while traveling.
Are you not afraid of AoE and being ambushed.
Does your DM not impose any perception penalty for alway being distracted.

Just wondering, as guidance last only 1 minute. So 5 rounds out of every 10 your casting a spell on someone in a 5 party group.

Do people really cast canstrip all day long while traveling.

Are you not afraid of AoE and being ambushed.
Does your DM not impose any perception penalty for alway being distracted.

Just wondering, as guidance last only 1 minute. So 5 rounds out of every 10 your casting a spell on someone in a 5 party group.

aoe ambush is a bit over the top. But perception penalty is definatly okay. I think in the circumstances we were using invis to undead to navigate a zombied town. We had to make tons of checks to resist 'interacting' with the zombies.

But if we aren't trying to be stealthy, I see no reason why not. My perception may have been not so hot during the time but everyone else was fine. We fluffed the vocal component as me giving what I felt was "guidance". Wasn't distruptive at all.

I use detect magic more often tbh, and have founf it to be closer to distruptive than guidance ever could be.

Oliver McShade wrote:

Do people really cast canstrip all day long while traveling.

Are you not afraid of AoE and being ambushed.
Does your DM not impose any perception penalty for alway being distracted.

Just wondering, as guidance last only 1 minute. So 5 rounds out of every 10 your casting a spell on someone in a 5 party group.

aoe ambush is a bit over the top. But perception penalty is definatly okay. I think in the circumstances we were using invis to undead to navigate a zombied town. We had to make tons of checks to resist 'interacting' with the zombies.

But if we aren't trying to be stealthy, I see no reason why not. My perception may have been not so hot during the time but everyone else was fine. We fluffed the vocal component as me giving what I felt was "guidance". Wasn't distruptive at all.

I use detect magic more often tbh, and have founf it to be closer to distruptive than guidance ever could be.

Depending on how large your party is, as Oliver pointed out, you are spending a lot of time maintaining this spell. It should halve your movement. So is the +1 to checks worth spending twice the time getting through the town?

Brandon Tomlinson wrote:

Oliver McShade wrote:

Do people really cast canstrip all day long while traveling.

Are you not afraid of AoE and being ambushed.
Does your DM not impose any perception penalty for alway being distracted.

Just wondering, as guidance last only 1 minute. So 5 rounds out of every 10 your casting a spell on someone in a 5 party group.

aoe ambush is a bit over the top. But perception penalty is definatly okay. I think in the circumstances we were using invis to undead to navigate a zombied town. We had to make tons of checks to resist 'interacting' with the zombies.

But if we aren't trying to be stealthy, I see no reason why not. My perception may have been not so hot during the time but everyone else was fine. We fluffed the vocal component as me giving what I felt was "guidance". Wasn't distruptive at all.

I use detect magic more often tbh, and have founf it to be closer to distruptive than guidance ever could be.

Depending on how large your party is, as Oliver pointed out, you are spending a lot of time maintaining this spell. It should halve your movement. So is the +1 to checks worth spending twice the time getting through the town?

Sure beats not getting through town.

Depending on how large your party is, as Oliver pointed out, you are spending a lot of time maintaining this spell. It should halve your movement. So is the +1 to checks worth spending twice the time getting through the town?

Small note: Would only take 25% of the time (normal movement per turn is a double move of 60ft., if you're casting one of two turns, and spending half of those turns casting, you'd move at 75% of the time).

Just ride in the wagon.

:)