I couldn't find this anywhere so here's a scenario:

A 1st level character, already at -1hp, gets attacked by some stirges. Said character normally has a 13 CON. Three stirges land on the unconscious character and damage the character for 12 CON reducing his 13 to a temporary score of 1. The CON loss causes 1hp loss per 2 CON lost so the character is now at -7hp. Does it matter?

The temporary CON score of 1 might indicate the character is dead because -7hp is well beyond -1hp and a character normally survives up until their -hp reaches their CON score. However, the CON score of 1 is temporary so you could give the character the benefit of his ordinary CON score and say it lives until it reaches -13hp.

I had this happen in a game I was running and, because I wasn't in a PC killing mood, I gave the character the benefit of his ordinary CON score thereby saving his life. Is there an offical ruling on this that I missed or is everybody houseruling? How are y'all handling this?

Ability damage never, ever, ever, never reduces the actual score. It works similarly to nonlethal damage; it accumulates. You take a -1 penalty to your bonus for every 2 points of ability damage, and if your ability damage ever reaches your score in that ability, you fall unconscious.

So, to answer your questions, yes they would go to -7 hit points, but no, they would not die. Their Con is still 13, so they still need to hit -13 to die.

Note that ability drain does actually reduce your score in a stat. Stirges only deal ability damage, though.

Also, note that the CON damage would make it that much harder to stabilize since that's a Fort save.

It's actually a Constitution check to stabilize now, I believe, but yeah, Con damage would still make that harder.

Ability damage never, ever, ever, never reduces the actual score. It works similarly to nonlethal damage; it accumulates. You take a -1 penalty to your bonus for every 2 points of ability damage, and if your ability damage ever reaches your score in that ability, you fall unconscious.

So, to answer your questions, yes they would go to -7 hit points, but no, they would not die. Their Con is still 13, so they still need to hit -13 to die.

Note that ability drain does actually reduce your score in a stat. Stirges only deal ability damage, though.

Yeah. That's pretty much what I figured, but I thought somebody else might have this happen and want to make sure they were doing it right.

A 1st level character, already at -1hp, gets attacked by some stirges. Said character normally has a 13 CON. Three stirges land on the unconscious character and damage the character for 12 CON reducing his 13 to a temporary score of 1. The CON loss causes 1hp loss per 2 CON lost so the character is now at -7hp. Does it matter?

First, a change from 3.5 to 3.p is that ability damage doesn't reduce your abilities. So with 13 CON and 12 CON damage, your CON score is still 13.

Second, at 1st level you lost 1 CON HD, so 12 Damage is -6 CON but you can never gain less than 1 HP a level.

You left out important info, so I am going to do the math assuming a Fighter then Wizard:

Fighter gets 10 HP, +1 for CON 13, +1 for Favored Class = 12 HP.
Takes 13 damage no at -1 HP.
Takes 12 CON damage (-6 HP) putting him at -7 HP.
7 < 13 so he still lives.

Wizard gets 6 HP, +1 for CON 13 = 7 HP.
Takes 8 damage now at -1 HP.
Takes 12 CON damage (-6 HP) putting him at -7 HP.
7 < 13 so he still lives.

Where is the difference in ability drain? I must have missed how it is different than damage?

Where is the difference in ability drain? I must have missed how it is different than damage?

Diseases, poisons, spells, and other abilities can all deal damage directly to your ability scores. This damage does not actually reduce an ability, but it does apply a penalty to the skills and statistics that are based on that ability.

For every 2 points of damage you take to a single ability, apply a –1 penalty to skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability. If the amount of ability damage you have taken equals or exceeds your ability score, you immediately fall unconscious until the damage is less than your ability score. The only exception to this is your Constitution score. If the damage to your Constitution is equal to or greater than your Constitution score, you die.

...

Ability Drain: Ability drain actually reduces the relevant ability score. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to lose skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. Ability drain can be healed through the use of spells such as restoration.

Damage doesn't alter your scores. Drain does.

You left out important info, so I am going to do the math assuming a Fighter then Wizard

Go for it. I didn't have access to my books when I wrote that stuff up so I couldn't fact check. You're a smart bunch and I figured you'd get the gist of it.

The situation basically went down as I described.

Second, at 1st level you lost 1 CON HD, so 12 Damage is -6 CON but you can never gain less than 1 HP a level.

Actually the RAW just says you lose 1 hp per 2 points of CON per hit die. This loss reduces your total and current hp. The minimum hp gained only applies when you gain a level, but doesn't set a floor for ability damage, or penalty with respect to hitpoint loss. I could see making a case for drain being treated separately, since that actually alters your CON stat, but damage or penalty seems to be straightforward.

If you did choose to bound hp loss to keep at least one 1 hp/level, you'd have to track your hit points per level for the life of the character, which seems bad. In fact, there are other cases where they went out of their way to avoid "unbuilding" a character, so this seems counter intuitive.

For example, a similar situation is when a 3rd level character with 9 total hp or less takes 2 negative levels. Those give you -10 hp, so the character is dead in PFRPG.

A similar situation is when a 3rd level character with 9 total hp or less takes 2 negative levels. Those give you -10 hp, so the character is in a coma.

Fixed that for you. They aren't dead, they're just at -1 hit points and unable to rise above that point until at least one negative level is removed.

FarmerBob wrote:

A similar situation is when a 3rd level character with 9 total hp or less takes 2 negative levels. Those give you -10 hp, so the character is in a coma.

Fixed that for you. They aren't dead, they're just at -1 hit points and unable to rise above that point until at least one negative level is removed.

Actually, now that I read the rules real carefully, this is a very pathological case. If you look at the recovering with help section (pg 191), they can become stable, conscious and are only considered disabled with negative hit points. As long as you only take move actions a round, you are good to go with a negative hit point maximum. But, if you ever take a standard action, you become dying and start losing hit points. Odd, but true, as far as I can tell.

I couldn't find this anywhere so here's a scenario:

A 1st level character, already at -1hp, gets attacked by some stirges. Said character normally has a 13 CON. Three stirges land on the unconscious character and damage the character for 12 CON reducing his 13 to a temporary score of 1. The CON loss causes 1hp loss per 2 CON lost so the character is now at -7hp. Does it matter?

The temporary CON score of 1 might indicate the character is dead because -7hp is well beyond -1hp and a character normally survives up until their -hp reaches their CON score. However, the CON score of 1 is temporary so you could give the character the benefit of his ordinary CON score and say it lives until it reaches -13hp.

I had this happen in a game I was running and, because I wasn't in a PC killing mood, I gave the character the benefit of his ordinary CON score thereby saving his life. Is there an offical ruling on this that I missed or is everybody houseruling? How are y'all handling this?

That charcter would actually be dead. This is why.

Dead
When your character’s current hit points drop to a
negative amount equal to his Constitution score or
lower, or if he succumbs to massive damage, he’s dead.

Ability Damage and Drain (Ex or Su) Some attacks or
special abilities cause ability damage or drain, reducing
the designated ability score by the listed amount. While
ability damage can be healed naturally, ability drain is
permanent and can only be restored through magic.

Ability drain AND ability damage actually reduce the ability score. Obviously some of you do not agree with this but that of course is your prerogative.

Temporary reductions are for instance the product of ray of enfeeblement or similar effects (though in this case it does not apply to Con; I cannot think of anything that temporarily reduces Con in the same way, though personal spell research might create something).

Ability drain AND ability damage actually reduce the ability score.

False.

Diseases, poisons, spells, and other abilities can all deal damage directly to your ability scores. This damage does not actually reduce an ability, but it does apply a penalty to the skills and statistics that are based on that ability.

I'll note I already quoted this in this thread.

The Grandfather wrote:

Ability drain AND ability damage actually reduce the ability score.

False.

Thats a strong word in this context.

Pathfinder Core Rulebook, Ability Score Damage, Penalty, and Drain, ie, not the short version of the rules for them wrote:

Diseases, poisons, spells, and other abilities can all deal damage directly to your ability scores. This damage does not actually reduce an ability, but it does apply a penalty to the skills and statistics that are based on that ability.

I'll note I already quoted this in this thread.

I did not see that. Thank you for pointing it out.

But what about the exception made for Constitution in that same paragraph? Should it not apply in this case as well?

Nope. Take note of what it is an exception to, not just that it is an exception: the sentence immediately preceding the Con exception is "If the amount of ability damage you have taken equals or exceeds your ability score, you immediately fall unconscious until the damage is less than your ability score."

In other words, when your Con damage reaches your Con score, you die instead of falling unconscious.

The Grandfather wrote:

But what about the exception made for Constitution in that same paragraph? Should it not apply in this case as well?

Nope. Take note of what it is an exception to, not just that it is an exception: the sentence immediately preceding the Con exception is "If the amount of ability damage you have taken equals or exceeds your ability score, you immediately fall unconscious until the damage is less than your ability score."

In other words, when your Con damage reaches your Con score, you die instead of falling unconscious.

Thanks. Constitution damage is a b+%#% but now constituton drain is even that bit more dangerous..

Zurai wrote:

The Grandfather wrote:

But what about the exception made for Constitution in that same paragraph? Should it not apply in this case as well?

Nope. Take note of what it is an exception to, not just that it is an exception: the sentence immediately preceding the Con exception is "If the amount of ability damage you have taken equals or exceeds your ability score, you immediately fall unconscious until the damage is less than your ability score."

In other words, when your Con damage reaches your Con score, you die instead of falling unconscious.

Thanks. Constitution damage is a b%~~~ but now constituton drain is even that bit more dangerous..

While we are here, do you automatically Stabilize if you get magical healing? (In other words, if someone is at -7 and the cleric Channels positive energy to heal 4 points, is the now -3 character stable?)

While we are here, do you automatically Stabilize if you get magical healing? (In other words, if someone is at -7 and the cleric Channels positive energy to heal 4 points, is the now -3 character stable?)

Yes.

If any sort of healing cures the dying character of even 1 point of damage, he becomes stable and stops losing hit points.

Your God of Knowledge,

gigglestick wrote:

While we are here, do you automatically Stabilize if you get magical healing? (In other words, if someone is at -7 and the cleric Channels positive energy to heal 4 points, is the now -3 character stable?)

Yes.

Pathfinder RPG wrote:

If any sort of healing cures the dying character of even 1 point of damage, he becomes stable and stops losing hit points.

Your God of Knowledge,

Nethys
nethys@karuikage.net

Thanks. I thought so (makes the Cleric and Hedge Witch in the party even more useful...)

Count on the god of Knowledge to know...