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OK, pretend I have a dire bear (CR 7, 10 HD), and I want to advance it to CR 11. In 3.5, I could have added 12 HD (+3 CR for the "animal" type), and increased its size by 1 step (another +1 to CR), and made the appropriate adjustments.
The Pathfinder Bestiary, however, tells me to apply size adjustments and additional HD to more or less fit the progression in an advancement table. Okay, I understand that. The problem is, THERE IS NO WAY to create anything even vaguely resembling the table's progression without arbitrarily tacking on AC and other improvements. +60 hp are easy to get. But increasing size doesn't come close to getting me the AC improvement I'm supposed to expect, and I need several size increases to get enough Str bonus to give me the damage increases I'm supposed to have.
PLEASE HELP! One simple example of any animal or magical beast advanced by a few CR steps -- and how to avoid falling dratically behind in terms of both AC and damage after the first couple of steps -- would be appreciated.
Although the +4 AC per CR increase seems a bit much. And it is quite arbitrary as far as I can tell.
Edit: Oh, +4 to all ability scores and a +2 nat armor. Eh, well, it at least makes sense. But too much advancement will break the CR, IMO. Not that we trust the CR scheme that blindly anyway.
Advanced Creature template.
Yeah, I know about the simple template (+1 CR), but I'm talking about actually rebuilding a monster to any desired CR by adding HD -- which Pathfinder claims to be able to do, but apparently can't.
General observations.
Some creatures start with better AC vs Con/HD and should probably stay that way. Animals have larger HP/CR than other creatures as do giants. A bear is similar and so going overboard on HP is probably ok given the base creature's lower AC.
You can mix and match templates to get closer to what you want.
For example, Advanced Template, Giant Template and 4HD should be about CR 11.
It should have 189 HP which is more than the +60, but is offset by the bear's lowish AC for its CR (at CR 7).
AC increases by (1 dex) 5 NA - 1 size = +5 (within the limits)
Attack bonus increases by (3 HD) + 6 str -1 size = +8, one more than the model.
For bonus damage...I think the table is wrong or means something non-obvious. Nothing at CR 20 has +84 to damage.
But just for the purpose of this exercise. The 4 HD would give 2 feats and if you grab INA on both feats (and count it as bonus damage) you get pretty close.
The bite attack would be at 2d8+13 which has an average value of 24. The base creature has an average damage of 11 (1d8+7). +13 damage isn't so far from +15.
OK, pretend I have a dire bear (CR 7, 10 HD), and I want to advance it to CR 11. In 3.5, I could have added 12 HD (+3 CR for the "animal" type), and increased its size by 1 step (another +1 to CR), and made the appropriate adjustments.
The Pathfinder Bestiary, however, tells me to apply size adjustments and additional HD to more or less fit the progression in an advancement table. Okay, I understand that. The problem is, THERE IS NO WAY to create anything even vaguely resembling the table's progression without arbitrarily tacking on AC and other improvements. +60 hp are easy to get. But increasing size doesn't come close to getting me the AC improvement I'm supposed to expect, and I need several size increases to get enough Str bonus to give me the damage increases I'm supposed to have.
PLEASE HELP! One simple example of any animal or magical beast advanced by a few CR steps -- and how to avoid falling dratically behind in terms of both AC and damage after the first couple of steps -- would be appreciated.
When you advance a monster, the important thing to keep in mind is that, HOWEVER you choose to advance a monster, it's Table 1–1 on page 291 of the Bestiary that you should pay attention to in the end. Using the other tables can get you started, but once you arrive at more or less where you want the monster to be, then you start adjusting its HD and its ability scores and its attacks and AC mods and all that in tiny bits until what you're aimed at fits well on a CR line in Table 1–1. Even THEN it's okay for a monster to be over one of these values, because monsters are supposed to be good at one thing (be that AC or hp or damage or whatever). If you're finding that your monster's AC is too low, just increase its natural armor bonus or its Dexterity. If it's hp are off, adjust its HD or its Constitution.
The key is to remember that Table 1–1 is the final one to try to stay close to. You use all the other tables to start the journey, but balance final numbers against table 1–1. This WILL mean that some of your stats won't match what other tables predict. That's perfectly fine. As long as your end creature is balanced according to Table 1–1, the CR system still works for your creation. It doesn't matter at all how many guidelines you ignored or broke to get to that point.
As an analogy, if you were building a house, we would give you a HUGE box of tools (all of the other advice in the bestiary) and a set of building codes (AKA Table 1–1). You can use all the tools in the box to build your house, or just some of them, or even one or none of them. It doesn't matter which tools you used, only that the end result is a house that fits in the building code.
Advanced Creature template.Yeah, I know about the simple template (+1 CR), but I'm talking about actually rebuilding a monster to any desired CR by adding HD -- which Pathfinder claims to be able to do, but apparently can't.
I would suggest that it can, I would just suggest that it is such that blindly adding Hit Dice to a creature has often created creatures that have deviated from the CR the tables have suggested.
Advancing the dire bear 3 HD and making it huge does give it a minor AC bonus, if after comparing to creatures of similar CR it is still much too low, I would suggest either increasing it's Dexterity or improving the natural armor bonus to better match what it should have.
If not adding a Dexterity or natural armor bonus to get it here, I think that the dire bear would be around the right values if one increased it 4 HD, turned it into a huge creature, used the +1 bonus to an ability score to improve Dexterity, and give it Improved Natural Armor two times. But I would still want to compare it to similar monsters of that CR to see if it came out too strong.
If the only way to advance monsters according to the system given is by taking Impr. Natural Armor for every feat gained, and by putting every ability increase in Dex, then that should have been explicitly stated in the directions ("Note that advanced monsters will never develop broader capabilities, because all of their feats are automatically invested in AC"), rather than being omitted.
You can mix and match templates to get closer to what you want.
Right -- but there's a big difference between (a) "Advancing monsters by adding HD is easy! Just follow this table!" (as advertised); vs. (b) "To advance a monster by adding HD, you need to selectively apply a combination of templates (some simple, some advanced) from different places in order to try and achieve an unlikely combination that looks vaguely like one in the table -- and by the way, don't actually add HD, because that takes you in the opposite direction from the one you want to go" (which is what happens in practice).
When you advance a monster, the important thing to keep in mind is that, HOWEVER you choose to advance a monster, it's Table 1–1 on page 291 of the Bestiary that you should pay attention to in the end. Using the other tables can get you started, but once you arrive at more or less where you want the monster to be, then you start adjusting its HD and its ability scores and its attacks and AC mods and all that in tiny bits until what you're aimed at fits well on a CR line in Table 1–1. Even THEN it's okay for a monster to be over one of these values, because monsters are supposed to be good at one thing (be that AC or hp or damage or whatever). If you're finding that your monster's AC is too low, just increase its natural armor bonus or its Dexterity.
If I understand you correctly, sir, the other tables are basically red herrings then, since they lead in the wrong direction, and are superceded by Table 1-1 anyway? It seems that the proper instructions should read as follows:
"Ignore the 'adding HD' table, because it's counterproductive, and instead, just add HD and size modifiers (and Dex points and natural AC bonuses arbitrarily, as needed or desired) in order to match the values in Table 1-1."
If I understand you correctly, sir, the other tables are basically red herrings then, since they lead in the wrong direction, and are superceded by Table 1-1 anyway? It seems that the proper instructions should read as follows:
"Ignore the 'adding HD' table, because it's counterproductive, and instead, just add HD and size modifiers (and Dex points and natural AC bonuses arbitrarily, as needed or desired) in order to match the values in Table 1-1."
I agree that the advancing monsters chapter could have been better presented or better written. Especially since each monster type has different baselines... we PROBABLY should have done a different section that talks about how to advance each creature type: "Advancing Animals," "Advancing Dragons," "Advancing Undead," etc.
THAT SAID: Table 1–2 is meant to start you on the path for creating a NEW monster. Not advancing an existing monster. Adding racial HD is covered in the next appendix, on page 295.
Advancing a monster and creating a new monster are different things.
Anyway... Sorry it's confusing.
Building the original monster was somewhat arbitrary. An ogre has natural armor 5 and an otyugh has natural armor 8. Why? Partly because it fit the concept of the monster, and partly to get the AC to a reasonable value for the CR. Unlike building a PC, there is no fixed ruleset that you can follow and end up with the base ogre. Parts of it are there, but parts of it (ability scores, natural armor, racial bonuses, special attacks and special qualities) are based on a mixture of intuition, desired levels for the final result and playtesting.
Consequently, advancing monsters also will be difficult to do with a strict "do A then B then C" procedure. There should probably be an additional step, along the lines of "Make additional changes to bring the values in line with the table 1-1".
By the monster advancement table, each +1 CR should give +1-2 AC, +1-2 to hit and plus several to hit (which varies based on CR). BAB increases from hit dice probably gets you pretty close with the to hit bonus. However, there's nothing inherent in additional hit dice that will increase your AC or damage. To cover that, you are going to have use feats.
Feats may or may not increase the damage and AC sufficiently, and there might also be other feats that fit the theme of the creature. (For example, a creature with multiple attacks which can Grab should probably get Greater Grapple when it is advanced.)
Once you have assigned feats and any templates that make sense, if it is still lacking in some area (and more hit dice will make it too strong in other areas), start adding additional bonuses to the weak areas. If the AC is too low, give it a boost to dexterity or natural armor, as best fits the theme. If damage is too low, boost strength (if to hit is also low) or give it bonus feats that increase damage. For creatures strongly associated with a plane, a direct sacred bonus to the problem stat could be good.
Other special abilities probably also need to be looked at. If it has SR, SR - CR should probably remain unchanged, so increase that. If it could cast spells as an Nth level caster, that should probably also be increased (although levels in that class might also make sense). DR might also need an upgrade.
In 3.5, I could have added 12 HD (+3 CR for the "animal" type), and increased its size by 1 step (another +1 to CR), and made the appropriate adjustments.
I'm pretty sure that a huge dire bear 22 hit dice would not be near CR 11.
To me, the Pathfinder rules for advancing are much more reasonable than the referenced 3.5 rules. In fact, I would suggest that they are actually quite functional compared to the 3.5 rules.
OK, so in all seriousness, I'd like to attempt a draft new guide for advancing monsters by adding HD -- one that can be followed in a step-wise manner to arrive at a "proper" endpoint as predicated in Table 1-1.
I'm pretty sure that a huge dire bear 22 hit dice would not be near CR 11.
Considering that a 5th level hold monster spell shuts him down with very little chance of resisting, a 9th level party should be the minimum to face the thing, and an 11th level party would be about right for a 1/4 reduction in resources. In short, CR 11 looks pretty close to me; the critter's lack of resistances and total lack of breadth of capabilities in no way justify a CR as high as Table 1-1 suggests.
And that's really the bottom line: Table 1-1 works for parties that have no spellcasters. For standard parties containing one or two full casters, the table is much less of a help, because it's based solely on AC and melee attack and damage capabilities.
And that's really the bottom line: Table 1-1 works for parties that have no spellcasters. For standard parties containing one or two full casters, the table is much less of a help, because it's based solely on AC and melee attack and damage capabilities.
are you simply ignoring the second half of the table which has such things as good and poor save values?
The first thing to do is look at monsters at the equivalent CR to what you're shooting for.
A CR 11 animal doesn't exist in the base rules, but a giant advanced tyrannosaurus does. Careful -- this is a colossal creature |:
I'd shoot to advance the dire bear up to a CR 9 level and then apply the advanced and giant templates.
At CR 9, you'll see every animal is gargantuan in size. That means you're going to have to bump the dire bear up to huge size *before* applying the giant template (which eventually pushes it to gargantuan).
A better example to look at is the Giant Emperor Scorpion -- the CR 11 gargantuan scorpion. It has a nasty poison, 3 natural attacks, grab/constrict mechanics, immunity to mind influencing effects, and tremorsense. In short, when you go from CR 7 -> CR 9, don't hold back.
At CR 9, you'll see every animal is gargantuan in size.
Why must they be, though? Remember in 3.0, there were "legendary animals" that were MUCH higher HD, but the same size, as their normal counterparts? You can't make them by adding HD in Pathfinder, and assumptions like "every animal of CR 9+ must be at least Gargantuan in size" would seem to make them impossible.
Remember, one of the driving design goals of the Pathfinder rules seemed to be that ADDING options to 3.5 was OK, but removing them wasn't. This would be one of the few cases of design failure, if that's true.
Why must they be, though? Remember in 3.0, there were "legendary animals" that were MUCH higher HD, but the same size, as their normal counterparts? You can't make them by adding HD in Pathfinder, and assumptions like "every animal of CR 9+ must be at least Gargantuan in size" would seem to make them impossible.
They don't need to be that big, but that's where you can expect to see the increases in strength and constitution that help raise the animals to higher CRs.
Legendary animals were basically a kluge to make appropriate HD animals that a druid could actually take with them as an animal companion into tight places like dungeons and city alleyways. Notice that they didn't reappear in 3.5 sources (at least not to my knowledge).
At CR 9, you'll see every animal is gargantuan in size.Why must they be, though? Remember in 3.0, there were "legendary animals" that were MUCH higher HD, but the same size, as their normal counterparts? You can't make them by adding HD in Pathfinder, and assumptions like "every animal of CR 9+ must be at least Gargantuan in size" would seem to make them impossible.
Remember, one of the driving design goals of the Pathfinder rules seemed to be that ADDING options to 3.5 was OK, but removing them wasn't. This would be one of the few cases of design failure, if that's true.
You can't really add many features to a bear that a dire bear doesn't have. Other than simply increasing the size of the claw/bite and increasing the thickness/toughness of his hide, there's not much you can do with a big tough non-magical chunk with 1-3 Int. Adding special abilities would be nice -- but by definition an animal is non-magical and dumb.
I think the problem here is that you're focused on animals over magical beasts. Magical beasts can be significantly smaller with better abilities. Base animals just aren't that powerful.
I think I've seen commentary from James in other threads that you aren't supposed to use Feats like Imp. Nat. Armor or Iron Will to achieve the stats you want for a creature, you can simply give them the AC/Saves you want (Saves via a Racial Bonus if need be). Likewise weapon damage shouldn't need to use Imp. Nat. Attack.
I think I've seen commentary from James in other threads that you aren't supposed to use Feats like Imp. Nat. Armor or Iron Will to achieve the stats you want for a creature, you can simply give them the AC/Saves you want (Saves via a Racial Bonus if need be).
@ Meabolex -- That's what I was getting at, in terms of "capabilities." If I advance by HD, then every +2 HD gives me another feat to play with -- PRESTO! Extra capabilities. But if I'm sinking every single feat into "Improved Natural Armor" (as was recommended upthread), then I can't be using those feats for things like Improved Grapple (handy for a dire bear) or Combat Reflexes or whatever -- or Iron Will and Improved Iron Will, for that matter, which quickly become obligatory.
Why are you trying to advance monsters by me?
It means that I'm revising my epic multiplanar quest for Cadogan, Sheraviel, Agun, and Rim (one that begins at 11th level -- just 6 to go!), and there will be some dire animals in it, and I want to be able to make them formidable without just out-and-out making up stats on the fly.
Why are you trying to advance monsters by me?It means that I'm revising my epic multiplanar quest for Cadogan, Sheraviel, Agun, and Rim (one that begins at 11th level -- just 6 to go!), and there will be some dire animals in it, and I want to be able to make them formidable without just out-and-out making up stats on the fly.
So, take combat reflexes, got it.
So, take combat reflexes, got it.Why are you trying to advance monsters by me?It means that I'm revising my epic multiplanar quest for Cadogan, Sheraviel, Agun, and Rim (one that begins at 11th level -- just 6 to go!), and there will be some dire animals in it, and I want to be able to make them formidable without just out-and-out making up stats on the fly.
We're still going to die, you know. :P
It's worth noting that not all monster types are equal. It's VERY tough to make an actually challenging high CR animal or vermin, because you can't give them magical abilities. The only way to make these things work at higher CR is to make them really big, and even then they'll generally have troubles against parties with flight. And no, I don't see this as a problem—if you're high level, it feels "right" to be fighting more magical creatures than just animals.
We're still going to die, you know. :PSo, take combat reflexes, got it.Why are you trying to advance monsters by me?It means that I'm revising my epic multiplanar quest for Cadogan, Sheraviel, Agun, and Rim (one that begins at 11th level -- just 6 to go!), and there will be some dire animals in it, and I want to be able to make them formidable without just out-and-out making up stats on the fly.
Yeah, well, by 11th level I expect to have a d-hopper so...
The movie Prophecy contains a great example of an advanced bear you'd get after it drinks contaminated water...
The movie Prophecy contains a great example of an advanced bear you'd get after it drinks contaminated water...
As it turns out, I was just re-reading Stephen King's The Waste Land and immediately wanted to make a Gargantuan half-golem dire bear...
It means that I'm revising my epic multiplanar quest for Cadogan, Sheraviel, Agun, and Rim (one that begins at 11th level -- just 6 to go!), and there will be some dire animals in it, and I want to be able to make them formidable without just out-and-out making up stats on the fly.
How can it be just 6 levels to go to reach 11th when Rim is 4th level? Did I miss something?