I do not know if this has been discussed earlier.

Another player and I have discussed whether a familiar can deliver a touch range spell-like ability with the deliver touch spells ability.

I argue that they can not. In part due to the PFB p. 304 statement "Spell-like abilities are magical and work just like spells (though they are not spells and so have no verbal, somatic, focus or material components).

I.e. In most instances they abide by the magic rules governing spells, but are not actual spells and are innate to the caster.

[Italics and bold case text are added by me for emfasis]

I agree. Spell-like abilities aren't spells. Your familiar can't deliver supernatural ability features even if they're touch. Or extraordinary abilities. The familiar feature works for spells. Not other things that aren't spells.

Spell like abilities act "Just like Spells".... They start out differently, sure, but once "cast" they act just like spells and that's refering to the rulebook under spell like abilities.

So once cast a spell like ability can be dispelled, blocked spheres of invulnerability, provoke AoO, stopped by SR and be delivered by a familiar.

Spell like abilities act "Just like Spells".... They start out differently, sure, but once "cast" they act just like spells and that's refering to the rulebook under spell like abilities.

So once cast a spell like ability can be dispelled, blocked spheres of invulnerability, provoke AoO, stopped by SR and be delivered by a familiar.

Except that you are asuming the delivery of the spell is not an inherent part of the casting.

its called spell like for a reason.
Once cast - it acts just like a spell. A cast spell can be delivered by a familiar, its not the familiar that casts it.

its called spell like for a reason.

Once cast - it acts just like a spell. A cast spell can be delivered by a familiar, its not the familiar that casts it.

As an argument that is not very solid.

as an argument your reply goes under the relevance fallacy :D

Your question does seem to be beside the point

The point should be this:
Rules as written says SLA's act just like spells once cast, and spells can be delivered by familiars. Acting like a spell lets the SLA follow the same rules as spells does.

So in a organized play setting the RAW should take precedence and familiars should be able to deliver touch spells.

So in a organized play setting the RAW should take precedence and familiars should be able to deliver touch spells.

Lets leave it at "I disagree".

:D

Then again its not like it will make to much of an impact in gameplay. Its highly situational and even combined with the SLA daze from enhantment its not all that powerfull.

You need to risk your puny and expencive familiar all to get to stun a single monster for 1 turn. its at best so so.

as an argument your reply goes under the relevance fallacy :D

Your question does seem to be beside the point

The point should be this:
Rules as written says SLA's act just like spells once cast, and spells can be delivered by familiars. Acting like a spell lets the SLA follow the same rules as spells does.

So in a organized play setting the RAW should take precedence and familiars should be able to deliver touch spells.

The question here is 'is a spell done being cast when one goes to deliver it?'

I believe that most people would *already* play it that way.

To whit: A sorcerer, while threatened casts acid arrow. He provokes an AOO for casting and if hit needs to concentrate to retain the spell. He then provokes an AOO for making a ranged attack. If hit here however he does not need to make a concentration check to retain the spell.

Likewise the sorcerer above could cast defensively and only provoke one AOO and not risk loosing the spell due to being hit by the AOO.

-James

Well, could a multi-class Wizard/Cleric deliver heals with their familiar?

My personal interpretation of the Deliver Touch special ability is that it is part of the magical bond granted with the familiar through the class offering the ability. So, I personally think that only wizard spells would be able to be delivered (even if the wizard gains spellcasting levels through a PrC, they are still *wizard* spells, in my opinion anyway).

Since I know of no spell-like abilities that are part of a class that grants a familiar, I have the opinion that no, the familiar could not deliver the touch. By their very nature, spell-like abilities are something very personal to a given character, they often represent special abilities that happen to mimic magical effects. I don't think that the flavor of a familiar is entirely compatible with being the conduit for that kind of special ability.

Granted, the above is entirely my subjective opinion, as the RAW does not expressly disallow it, I suppose it could be possible. However, with this level of ambiguity, I would think the issue becomes less about hard and fast rules, and more of a GM's discretion kind of thing.

To whit: A sorcerer, while threatened casts acid arrow. He provokes an AOO for casting and if hit needs to concentrate to retain the spell. He then provokes an AOO for making a ranged attack. If hit here however he does not need to make a concentration check to retain the spell.

Likewise the sorcerer above could cast defensively and only provoke one AOO and not risk loosing the spell due to being hit by the AOO.

Without meaning to hijack the thread...

It is an interesting topic.

FWIW I agree with The Grandfather. A spell is directed in the casting. An ability or SLA is cast the same way for all characters with that ability subject to its description. It cannot be rewritten or reworked to include a familiar. Abilities are not generally allowed metamagic feats, and do not generally demand components. They are not spells but use the description of spells to simplify the book and spare the writers rewriting them.

Magic powers are 'magic' and not a fully understood thing or something framed in the mind of the one with the ability. If an ability can be used by a familiar in any way it must say so in the description.

The ability only mentions spells. Abilities are not spells though their affects may be similar.

Sigurd

It is an interesting topic.

FWIW I agree with The Grandfather. A spell is directed in the casting. An ability or SLA is cast the same way for all characters with that ability subject to its description. It cannot be rewritten or reworked to include a familiar. Abilities are not generally allowed metamagic feats, and do not generally demand components. They are not spells but use the description of spells to simplify the book and spare the writers rewriting them.

Magic powers are 'magic' and not a fully understood thing or something framed in the mind of the one with the ability. If an ability can be used by a familiar in any way it must say so in the description.

The ability only mentions spells. Abilities are not spells though their affects may be similar.

Sigurd

I think those are very important observations.

Also, if the more lax interpretation other posters represet is used, what is to stop spell-like abilities from being scribed onto scrolls with the Scribe Scroll feat?

That should read:

The familiar ability to use touch only mentions spells. It mentions spells 3 or 4 times and makes no mention of abilities. So by strict reading that is what it does. I would not be alarmed if a power was stretched to be used as a touch attack but that is an additional power\agreement with your DM.

Sigurd