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No LA at all what if you wanna play a minotaur, for example?
You bribe the DM $50 for each point of CR. A minotuar being CR 4 requires a $200 bribe. :D
Seriously, though, a CR 4 creature is equivalent, in theory, to a 5th level PC. For CRs of creatures with only class levels you subtract 1 from CL to get CR for PC classes and you subtract 2 from CL to get CR for NPC classes. You could probably work it from there.
Ok dang, I had a lot typed up and accidently went back a page and lost it all. Argh.
So the skinny of what I had written before.
Assimar should be 1 level less then the party.
Minotaur should be 8 levels less then the party.
The reasoning on the minotaur: First it is equal in BAB and hitpoints as a 6th level fighter, then has some awesome abilities: Natural size large and can be enlarged, Secondary gore attack that does double damage on a charge, Can never be lost and never flat-footed. These coudl argueably be 1 or 2 levels of goodness. So I say a Minotaur is just about that of a 8th lvl guy.
I have done up a bunch of monster for The Cheese Grinder tournament and what level they could be if they were with other 11th level guys. Feel free to look over the site and ask questions or point out concerns if you think they are too high or too low
Monsters as Players
Ok dang, I had a lot typed up and accidently went back a page and lost it all. Argh.
So the skinny of what I had written before.
Assimar should be 1 level less then the party.
Minotaur should be 8 levels less then the party.
That's how it worked in d20 3.5 and the reasoning is sound, but that's not the rule in Pathfinder, and since this section of the boards is a Pathfinder rules section, I gave that. I'd even argue that the Aasimar and Tiefling are much more equal to the core PC races than in 3.5 (or rather, the core races have been bumped up to their level), so there's no need for a level adjustment, even if you still include one as a general rule for monster PCs.
My DM let me play an Aasimar Cleric, the only problem he had with it was the energy resistance so he reduced it to 1 at 1st level and every 2 levels after 1st I gained another point of it so at 10th level I had the proper energy resistance (that's written in the book). One of the other Pathfinder books says something about playing "more powerful races" (which is anything in the beastiary with it's racial abilities made so a player could be 1). It really says that their not too over powered but some DM's will make you make them less powerful.
My DM let me play an Aasimar Cleric, the only problem he had with it was the energy resistance so he reduced it to 1 at 1st level and every 2 levels after 1st I gained another point of it so at 10th level I had the proper energy resistance (that's written in the book). One of the other Pathfinder books says something about playing "more powerful races" (which is anything in the beastiary with it's racial abilities made so a player could be 1). It really says that their not too over powered but some DM's will make you make them less powerful.
Enh. How often does energy resistance come up anyway? Once in a while.
Using the Pathfinder SRD, Tiefling has:
- +2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, –2 Charisma: Tieflings are quick in body and mind, but are inherently strange.
- Darkvision: Tieflings see in the dark up to 60 feet.
- Skilled: Tieflings have a +2 racial bonus on Bluff and Stealth checks.
- Spell-Like Ability: Tieflings can use darkness once per day as a spell-like ability. The caster level for this ability equals the tiefling's class level.
- Fiendish Resistance: Tieflings have cold resistance 5, electricity resistance 5, and fire resistance 5.
- Fiendish Sorcery: Tiefling sorcerers with the Abyssal or Infernal bloodline treat their Charisma score as 2 points higher for all sorcerer class abilities.
- Languages Tieflings begin play speaking Common and either Abyssal or Infernal. Tieflings with high Intelligence scores can choose any of the following: Abyssal, Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Goblin, Halfling, Infernal, and Orc.
I don't see how that's any more powerful than the gnome:
- +2 Constitution, +2 Charisma, –2 Strength: Gnomes are physically weak but surprisingly hardy, and their attitude makes them naturally agreeable.
- Small: Gnomes are Small creatures and gain a +1 size bonus to their AC, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, a –1 penalty to their Combat Maneuver Bonus and Combat Maneuver Defense, and a +4 size bonus on Stealth checks.
- Slow Speed: Gnomes have a base speed of 20 feet.
- Low-Light Vision: Gnomes can see twice as far as humans in conditions of dim light. See Additional Rules.
- Defensive Training: Gnomes get a +4 dodge bonus to AC against monsters of the giant subtype.
- Gnome Magic: Gnomes add +1 to the DC of any saving throws against illusion spells that they cast. Gnomes with a Charisma of 11 or higher also gain the following spell-like abilities: 1/day—dancing lights, ghost sound, prestidigitation, and speak with animals. The caster level for these effects is equal to the gnome's level. The DC for these spells is equal to 10 + the spell's level + the gnome's Charisma modifier.
- Hatred: Gnomes receive a +1 bonus on attack rolls against humanoid creatures of the reptilian and goblinoid subtypes due to special training against these hated foes.
- Illusion Resistance: Gnomes get a +2 racial saving throw bonus against illusion spells or effects.
- Keen Senses: Gnomes receive a +2 racial bonus on Perception skill checks.
- Obsessive: Gnomes receive a +2 racial bonus on a Craft or Profession skill of their choice.
- Weapon Familiarity: Gnomes treat any weapon with the word “gnome” in its name as a martial weapon.
- Languages: Gnomes begin play speaking Common, Gnome, and Sylvan. Gnomes with high Intelligence scores can choose from the following: Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Giant, Goblin, and Orc.
My DM let me play an Aasimar Cleric, the only problem he had with it was the energy resistance so he reduced it to 1 at 1st level and every 2 levels after 1st I gained another point of it so at 10th level I had the proper energy resistance (that's written in the book). One of the other Pathfinder books says something about playing "more powerful races" (which is anything in the beastiary with it's racial abilities made so a player could be 1). It really says that their not too over powered but some DM's will make you make them less powerful.Enh. How often does energy resistance come up anyway? Once in a while.
But you DO usually have to be much higher in level to get anywhere near even a temporary energy resistance. Draconic Sorcerer is probably the earliest permanent energy resistance and that is against one type and at 3rd level.
But the Tiefling is (in PF) more or less balanced compared to other classes. The Aasimar is little more powerful in that it doesn't have a negative ability score.
Enh. How often does energy resistance come up anyway? Once in a while.
The games you play in must be far different then the ones I play in.
We get fireballed, attacked with flaming weapons, adventuring near lava, blast of code from opening a crypt, shocker lizards, breath weapons, etc. etc. etc. all the time. Maybe in low fantasy elemental resistance are not a big deal, but in high fantasy it comes up a lot.
At least in the games I play in.
A resistance 5 to three elemental types is pretty big.
Tiefling sorcerers really have 2 stat boosts and no negative due to Fiendish Sorcery
If I was playing a cleric or a paladin and Assimar was the same as human I would take assimar, stat boosts to two major stats, elemental resistance, darkvision, +2 to two class skills, a 3rd lvl spell useable 1/day! Yeah the human gives me the extra feat, but only one stat boost. Yeah I get the extra skill point at each level which is better then the assimars +bonsues at first in the long run.
All the above was in my opinion.
I would say an Assimar hands down beats a human for cleric and paladin. If a race is hands down better then another then there should be some cost to playing it to balance it out.
I think the current rule suggestion for playing monsters is NOT good enough, and not balanced. Which it says that. A new set of rules should be developed and published in the Beastiary II.
Eh they are not worse then a dwarf, elf or gnome. Sure the resistance is nice but does not come up every single combat in every single game. I mean if they had DR that be one thing, but eh how many level 1 foes throw out fireball and lighting bolts?
I have never used LA with em and have never had it be an issue
1) Where does Aasimar get +2 skill pts per level?
2) Daylight is nowhere near as useful as Darkness. "Argh, you've made this area very sunny! Bet you can't do it again!"
The stat boost with no negative and the energy resistances are really what overpowers the Aasimar.
I have to say though, removing LA and not taking a second look at 0-HD monster races was a bit bad design on Paizo's part.
Eh they are not worse then a dwarf, elf or gnome. Sure the resistance is nice but does not come up every single combat in every single game. I mean if they had DR that be one thing, but eh how many level 1 foes throw out fireball and lighting bolts?
A better question is how many creatures CR 3 and below monsters do energy damage.
If a race is hands down better then another then there should be some cost to playing it to balance it out.
BS. Halfling is hands-down better for playing a sorcerer and bard than a dwarf, but there's no level adjustment there.
I think the current rule suggestion for playing monsters is NOT good enough, and not balanced. Which it says that. A new set of rules should be developed and published in the Beastiary II.
That's great, but the OP didn't ask what you thought the rule should be, he asked what it is.
That's great, but the OP didn't ask what you thought the rule should be, he asked what it is.
There was answered in the first 2 posts so this is now about balance.
5 or so
Fire elemental,Electric eel,Lantern archon, shock lizard and mephits
As I said not a huge deal
And anyone you come across with caster levels.
And anyone you come across with caster levels.5 or so
Fire elemental,Electric eel,Lantern archon, shock lizard and mephits
As I said not a huge deal
Again not a big deal AASIMAR just use fire, oh what shall we do the elf is IMMUNE to sleep...now the sleep inducing wizards are USELESS I tell you!
And dwrves get a resistance to poison!I mean really they may pass saves easier..now snakes are less a threat.
Now if ya play a game and every single combat stuff like fire, cold and electricity based spells are flying about..yeah they are damned good..but if it does not come up every single game and almost every single session..eh big whoop, humans got the free feat which is often much more useful
Again not a big deal AASIMAR just use fire, oh what shall we do the elf is IMMUNE to sleep...now the sleep inducing wizards are USELESS I tell you!And anyone you come across with caster levels.5 or so
Fire elemental,Electric eel,Lantern archon, shock lizard and mephits
As I said not a huge deal
Are you honestly comparing elemental damage to the 1 or 2 spells that MIGHT make you fall asleep if the caster is several times your level? Really? Think about that and try again.
I had a player play a assimar. I gave the rest of the group +2 to a stat of their choosing to compensate and that worked well. It was one of the suggestion for a Tiefling in the Cot player guide. The only issue I could see is players having one player play a assimar for the +2 stat bonus on the rest of group.
On idea I thought of might be everyone gets 20 point stat buy. If you want to play a non standard race you get the 15 stat buy.
To your list of 5 monsters CR 3 or below you need to add:
Alchemist's Fire (effectively immune), Acid Flasks (the same),Burning Hands, Shocking Grasp, Chill Touch, Flaming Sphere, Scorching Ray, Acid Arrow, Produce Flame, Flame Blade, Fire Trap, Heat Metal, Elemental Ray (Sor Bloodline), and Acid Dart (Conjuration school power.)
To me those things have a fair chance of coming up even in a low level fight.
And anyone you come across with caster levels.5 or so
Fire elemental,Electric eel,Lantern archon, shock lizard and mephits
As I said not a huge deal
Again not a big deal AASIMAR just use fire, oh what shall we do the elf is IMMUNE to sleep...now the sleep inducing wizards are USELESS I tell you!
And dwarves get a resistance to poison!I mean really they may pass saves easier..now snakes are less a threat.
And depending on what bonus feat you pick, not even all humans are balanced against each other. Give the human who took Dodge a +1 level adjustment because the other human in the party took Skill Focus: Profession (Sailor).
5 points is piddling. A few resistances is a nice edge, once in a while. It's not total immnunity, and once the party hits 8th level or so, barely worth mentioning. Certainly not worth a level.
1) Where does Aasimar get +2 skill pts per level?
2) Daylight is nowhere near as useful as Darkness. "Argh, you've made this area very sunny! Bet you can't do it again!"The stat boost with no negative and the energy resistances are really what overpowers the Aasimar.
I have to say though, removing LA and not taking a second look at 0-HD monster races was a bit bad design on Paizo's part.
I have to agree that Darkness 1/day is far more useful than Daylight but Daylight comes in handy against Drow and Vampires and other creatures that are effected by light, ya sure it's very situational but it's fun. I played a Lesser Aasimar in 3.5 and went around to churches and used daylight and told people I was sent by their god to collect money :P
Resist 5 to two types will let you do cool things for the first few levels, like rush into the burning building to save the children or snatch the holy relic from the acid bath. After that, it's just a few points off from a fireball or that freezing ice trap. It seriously isn't equal to an entire level. Elemental resistance is ridiculously common on monsters, and ridiculously expensive for characters.
Personally I like the other fix from the Council of Thieves player's guide.
Replaces the 3 energy resistances with +2 on all saves vs those energy types.
Replace the 2nd level spell which scales to character level (darkness) with a cantrip of choice.
This follows the same pattern of resistances and inherent magic that the core races have. If the argument is that ER 5 to three types is piddling then it shouldn't be such a loss to replace it with something more in line with other racial resistances. Additionally the +2 to saves has a chance of making a more serious difference at critical junctions during higher levels (by helping you take half or no damage from time to time).
I have to agree that Darkness 1/day is far more useful than Daylight but Daylight comes in handy against Drow and Vampires and other creatures that are effected by light, ya sure it's very situational but it's fun. I played a Lesser Aasimar in 3.5 and went around to churches and used daylight and told people I was sent by their god to collect money :P
Even against orcs it's at least like an un-saveable bane.
But those are rules to get around LA, because there is no Level Adjustment in PF. All LA talk is just house ruling in 3.5 at this point.
I think it is strange that people seem to be arguing that the old LA was only because of the energy resistances. If you are house ruling the 3.5 LA thing it would be a buy off for 3 ER's at 5, a free 2nd level spell which gives a combat edge rather than a nice trick, and an ability that would let sorcerers treat their primary spellcasting stat count as if it were +2 to offset the only racially penalized score.
The 3.5 LA was for two reasons:
Neither of those are entirely true in Pathfinder. Both races have the same (although Aasimar have a higher total bonus thanks to not having a penalty to any stat) number of bonus stats as any of the non-human races, and they do not receive the proficiencies due to being Outsiders (for the same reason as half-orcs don't get the orc light sensitivity trait).
5 resistance to three different elements is far weaker than the dwarven +2 to all magical or poison saves or the halfling +1 to all saves, and the spell-like ability isn't any better than the multiple SLAs gnomes get. They're immune to <foo> person spells, but while that means they're immune to charm person, they're also immune to enlarge person. It balances out to being a minor benefit.
All told, IMO, Tieflings are perfectly balanced as-is, and Aasimar just need a stat penalty (I suggest Constitution).
But those are rules to get around LA, because there is no Level Adjustment in PF. All LA talk is just house ruling in 3.5 at this point.
I think it is strange that people seem to be arguing that the old LA was only because of the energy resistances. If you are house ruling the 3.5 LA thing it would be a buy off for 3 ER's at 5, a free 2nd level spell which gives a combat edge rather than a nice trick, and an ability that would let sorcerers treat their primary spellcasting stat count as if it were +2 to offset the only racially penalized score.
Yeah but that +2 Charisma is only Sorcerer class spells. Aasimar bards are hosed.
Darkness isn't that big a deal. Too many things have some way to overcome it. If their opponent has Darkvision, they're on equal footing, and that's a base ability of a lot of the creatures in the Bestiary.
Hm. If you have Darkvision but you're standing in a lighted area, can you see into the darker area of a Darkness spell?
All told, IMO, Tieflings are perfectly balanced as-is, and Aasimar just need a stat penalty (I suggest Constitution).Aasimar paladins everywhere think you're a cruel man. :)
Heh. I suggest Con because an Int penalty makes no sense and Con is the only stat that every class would rather have at least 10 of. I'm not one of those people who think having two mental stat bonuses is unbalancing, but coupling wis+cha with a penalty to strength or dex just would be no deterrent at all to any sort of caster except the wizard.
I like hard choices. I've still made Aasimar characters myself with that Con penalty. Aasimar Paladins, even ;) though that was in 3.5 when they needed both Wis and Cha.
I've got a player playing a tiefling in my FR campaign using the tiefling rules from the CoT AP. I nixed the energy resistance, but I let him choose his character's bloodline and roll on the alternative tiefling ability chart. He ended up with 15% immunity to critical hits. That seems pretty powerful to me. The immunity worked on the first critical he took.
Zo
All told, IMO, Tieflings are perfectly balanced as-is, and Aasimar just need a stat penalty (I suggest Constitution).
I suggest choosing a single of the two stat boosts to apply, a bit like the human bonus right now (but limited to wis and cha). I don't think aasimars should be less than humans in any specific way, but they may be a bit more bound to heritage and a bit less flexible.
One of the big draws of the Aasimar and Tiefling in 3.0/3,5 was that they got more ability score bonuses than other races did. That is no longer the case. Even the Drow are not what they once were. Looking at those races now, I don't think they warrant a LA. They really aren't any more powerful than other races.
Depending on your gaming style, these races can also have an unwritten weakness - prejudice. Drow are universally hated by just about everybody. With elves and dwarves, it's pretty much kill on sight. Tieflings are obviously descended from fiends - the horns, tail, red eyes, etc make that obvious. Since most people are naturally averse to anything fiendish, tieflings will have to work hard to prove themselves to a community before they'll be trusted. And aasimars may be welcome in town, but most evil creatures are going to make angel-spawn their first target, either to corrupt them or just because angel-spawn tastes better than mortal meat.
One of the big draws of the Aasimar and Tiefling in 3.0/3,5 was that they got more ability score bonuses than other races did. That is no longer the case. Even the Drow are not what they once were. Looking at those races now, I don't think they warrant a LA. They really aren't any more powerful than other races.
Depending on your gaming style, these races can also have an unwritten weakness - prejudice. Drow are universally hated by just about everybody. With elves and dwarves, it's pretty much kill on sight. Tieflings are obviously descended from fiends - the horns, tail, red eyes, etc make that obvious. Since most people are naturally averse to anything fiendish, tieflings will have to work hard to prove themselves to a community before they'll be trusted. And aasimars may be welcome in town, but most evil creatures are going to make angel-spawn their first target, either to corrupt them or just because angel-spawn tastes better than mortal meat.
If you give an aasimaar thier outsider weapon proficiencies, it will not make them any more powerful, in fact, it will be a munchkin trap.
they rightfully DO have thier proficiencies by virtue of being outsiders, it does not have a restriction based on hit dice or subtype, all that matters is that they are outsiders. it doesn't turn them into walking piles of cheese, it just gives diversity in weapon choice.even if a caster knows how to use a longsword, greatsword, or shortsword, it doesn't mean that using one is good idea, casters are squishy, the classes that do benefit from having those proficiencies already have them. it just means that you can make odd flavors of caster. such as a swashbuckling priestess of sarenrae for example.
energy resistance? heres some answers, it declines by levels 5 and after. at that point, you should be fighting giants, elementals, dire animals, and just starting the heirarchy of outsiders. most of these things are melee monsters. so energy resistance doesn't matter.
2 positive attributes and no negatives.
fluctuates based on point buy allowance. too variable in value.
racial prejudice also works as a balancing factor.
and no exchange is truly equal anyway.
they rightfully DO have thier proficiencies by virtue of being outsiders, it does not have a restriction based on hit dice or subtype, all that matters is that they are outsiders.
False. They only get what is stated in their "Aasimar Characters" entry. This has already been officially confirmed by Paizo. Aasimar and Tieflings do not get weapon proficiencies.
they rightfully DO have thier proficiencies by virtue of being outsiders,
As Zurai pointed out they do not gain these, only outsiders with race HD gain them. As they do not have race HD, they do not gain them. Which BTW was the rule in the FRCS where the races first appeared in 3.x. It may have been changed later, IDK but it worked in that book just the way Paizo is doing it
No LA at all what if you wanna play a minotaur, for example?
No Level Adjustment, as was meant in 3.5
However, per page 312=313, any race that has a CR, if allowed as a PC by the GM, does have CR levels.
For the Minotaur (which is actually the example in the book), you get the following :
A Minotaur is CR 4, and is appropriate for a level 4 party (played as is, no class levels for the Minotaur).
As the party goes up in level, the Minotaur gains extra class levels between every 2nd and 3rd level, up to a maximum of 1/2 it's CR.
So, for example :
Party Level 4 : Minotaur CR4, 0 Class Levels
Party Level 5 : Minotaur CR4, 1 Class Level
Party Level 6 : Minotaur CR4, 2 Class Levels
Party Level 6.5 : Minotaur CR3, 3 Class Levels
Party Level 7 : Minotaur CR3, 4 Class Levels
Party Level 8 : Minotaur CR3, 5 Class Levels
Party Level 9 : Minotaur CR3, 6 Class Levels
Party Level 9.5 : Minotaur CR2, 7 Class Levels
Party Level 10 : Minotaur CR2, 8 Class Levels
So, a Minotaur can only ever hit level 18 in a class thanks to his racial CR, prior to Epic Play that is.
they rightfully DO have thier proficiencies by virtue of being outsiders, it does not have a restriction based on hit dice or subtype, all that matters is that they are outsiders.False. They only get what is stated in their "Aasimar Characters" entry. This has already been officially confirmed by Paizo. Aasimar and Tieflings do not get weapon proficiencies.
i'd like to petition for Aasimaars and Tieflings to get thier outsider martial weapon proficiencies back. it was one of thier few lures. who wishes to sign. paize claimed they were stronger with thier current abiliites, but they are actualy so much weaker, that they need thier proficiencies back. i vote that they should get. they rightfully deserve to have them. give them back thier lure. i'd also like to give them back thier eternal youth too.
Aasimaars and Tieflings are underpowered. all they have is thier racial attribute bonuses, +2 to 2 skills, darkvision, a situational spell like ability and resist 5 to 3 energy types. the core races are far more powerful. and have far more interesting abilities. give them back thier blanket list of martial weapon proficiencies. who is with me.
i'd like to petition for Aasimaars and Tieflings to get thier outsider martial weapon proficiencies back.
They should have never had them, that was some goofball ruling wotc made in 3.5. If your a creature type and ya don't have HD then ya don't get the things that come from HD, like proficiency and skills and the like. I t was a really odd ruling.