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While integrating the Enlarge Spell feat, I noticed an error in D&D3.5, and in the PRD (Core Rulebook page 122)
Consider the description:
Benefit: You can alter a spell with a range of close, medium, or long to increase its range by 100%. An enlarged spell with a range of close now has a range of 50 ft. + 5 ft./level,...
This Feat doubles the ranges of spells (i.e. increase its range by 100%). This is not true for the Close range, when the caster level is an ODD number (because of the division rounding):
Example using a level 1 caster:
Close range = 25' +0' = 25'
Now, with this feat enabled (see bold formula highlighted above):
50' + 5' = 55'
As you can see, we were expecting an increase of 100% of the 25' range (expected value 50'). But the formula above gives us a bit more then a 100% increase (55')!
The Correct formula for Close range should be:
50 ft. + 10 ft./ 2 levels
I don't expect 3.5 to be fixed, but hopefully you guys can fix Pathfinder... :)
RiTz21
http://TheOnlySheet.com
While integrating the Enlarge Spell feat, I noticed an error in D&D3.5, and in the PRD (Core Rulebook page 122)
Consider the description:
Benefit: You can alter a spell with a range of close, medium, or long to increase its range by 100%. An enlarged spell with a range of close now has a range of 50 ft. + 5 ft./level,...This Feat doubles the ranges of spells (i.e. increase its range by 100%). This is not true for the Close range, when the caster level is an ODD number (because of the division rounding):
Example using a level 1 caster:
Close range = 25' +0' = 25'Now, with this feat enabled (see bold formula highlighted above):
50' + 5' = 55'As you can see, we were expecting an increase of 100% of the 25' range (expected value 50'). But the formula above gives us a bit more then a 100% increase (55')!
The Correct formula for Close range should be:
50 ft. + 10 ft./ 2 levelsI don't expect 3.5 to be fixed, but hopefully you guys can fix Pathfinder... :)
RiTz21
http://TheOnlySheet.com
You are making the assumption that rounding is not already occurring. Instead, don't round Close range spells. Now, at 1st level, the close range spell is going 27.5 ft. Because of how squares work, that is 25 ft, not 27.5. 2.5 feet has no significance when each square is 5 feet. Therefore, it is 25 ft. + 5 ft. per two levels. Each level, 2.5 feet is added. When you double that, the 2.5 feet is significant, and the feat is correct as written.
You are making the assumption that rounding is not already occurring. Instead, don't round Close range spells. Now, at 1st level, the close range spell is going 27.5 ft. Because of how squares work, that is 25 ft, not 27.5. 2.5 feet has no significance when each square is 5 feet. Therefore, it is 25 ft. + 5 ft. per two levels. Each level, 2.5 feet is added. When you double that, the 2.5 feet is significant, and the feat is correct as written.
I don't think I am assuming anything.
On the contrary, you seem to assume that the rules would 'use' fractions of distances, then round them down to the nearest 5' step. Consider the rule for Close range:
Close: The spell reaches as far as 25 feet away from you. The maximum range increases by 5 feet for every two full caster levels.
Where are you seeing that it would add 2.5' to the range? I do not see that in the above phrase. It is clear that you get a full 5' bonus for each two complete caster level you have.... No assumptions here, no 2.5' bonus...
RiTz21
http://TheOnlySheet.com
RiTz21,
I think it's correct.Normally Close range is 25+5/2 levels. It's now 50+5/level. That's doubled. The static component is twice and the variable component occurs at twice as many levels.
EDIT: So it's doubled. For a given value of doubled.
No it's not 'doubled' as I explained in the 1st post (with mathematical proof to support this...doubling 25', should not give 55')
In fact, you give a good point why this is an error (and inconsistent one at that!)
A) They took the 25'+5' per 2 levels
B) They doubled the 25' range to 50' (double the basic range)
C) They then HALVED the level requirement from 'per 2 levels' to 'per level', instead of just DOUBLING the bonus range from 5' to 10' !!
(and when I say "they", I do not mean Paizo, as they are just using the same 3.5 rules - I mean Wizards of the Cost...)
So Wizard should really have doubled the basic range AND the bonus range to get 100%.
RiTz21
http://TheOnlySheet.com
As you can see, we were expecting an increase of 100% of the 25' range (expected value 50'). But the formula above gives us a bit more then a 100% increase (55')!
But it's not a 100% increase in the value of 25 ft. It's a 100% increase in the value of 25 + floor(1/2). Normally, floor(1/2) * 2 would be zero, but in this case, the calculation is made floor(1/2 * 2), which is saying that the feat gives 100% more effect from caster levels toward range. This is not an incorrect statement.
James Risner
(Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber)
While integrating the Enlarge Spell feat, I noticed an error in D&D3.5, and in the PRD (Core Rulebook page 122)
Example using a level 1 caster:
Close range = 25' +0' = 25'Now, with this feat enabled (see bold formula highlighted above):
50' + 5' = 55'The Correct formula for Close range should be:
50 ft. + 10 ft./ 2 levels
From 3.p:
Close: The spell reaches as far as 25 feet away from you.Round down is a rule, and the range is doubled.
So you calculate the range using 25+x/2 then double the range.
From 3.p:
Close: The spell reaches as far as 25 feet away from you.Round down is a rule, and the range is doubled.
So you calculate the range using 25+x/2 then double the range.
Indeed, that is another way Wizards could have phrased the feat to avoid this Error (and it seems like a simpler way to phrase it, as it would not have required a formula in the first place!!!)
RiTz21
http://TheOnlySheet.com
From 3.p:
Close: The spell reaches as far as 25 feet away from you.Round down is a rule, and the range is doubled.
So you calculate the range using 25+x/2 then double the range.
Indeed, that is another way Wizards could have phrased the feat to avoid this Error (and it seems like a simpler way to phrase it, as it would not have required a formula in the first place!!!)
RiTz21
http://TheOnlySheet.com
The feat does not tell you when to round down. In fact, nothing in the system suggests that you would round down before multiplying. So, your 1st level range would be 27.5 ft. (round down to 25). Your 1st level Extended spell would be 55 ft. (round down to 55).