I'm not sure if this has been covered elsewhere but can you stack rapid shot with manyshot?

Also, does rapid shot still work as in 3.5? The extra attack is at your highest BA?

I'm not sure if this has been covered elsewhere but can you stack rapid shot with manyshot?

Also, does rapid shot still work as in 3.5? The extra attack is at your highest BA?

Are they both not only a part of a fullattack-action ?

Manyshot says that the first Attack of your fullattack-action fires 2 arrows at once.

And Rapidshot just states that you get a extra Attack at a fullattack-action, but all attacks suffer a -2 penalty on the attackroll.

So it should be (with just the base attack bonus):

+18/+18 (Manyshot)/+18 (Rapidshot)/+13/+8/+3 (Normal)

It would make up for the 7 attacks while dualwielding.

It would be five attacks, since Manyshot does not give an extra attack, but uses one attack roll for two arrows.

Are they both not only a part of a fullattack-action ?

Manyshot says that the first Attack of your fullattack-action fires 2 arrows at once.

And Rapidshot just states that you get a extra Attack at a fullattack-action, but all attacks suffer a -2 penalty on the attackroll.

So it should be (with just the base attack bonus):

+18/+18 (Manyshot)/+18 (Rapidshot)/+13/+8/+3 (Normal)

It would make up for the 7 attacks while dualwielding.

Manyshot requires a full-round action and so does Rapid Shot. So you can't stack them as you only get one full-round action per round to use. In 3.5 where Manshot was a standard action and rapid shot full-round action you still could not stack them.

I would have to say yes its at the highest BAB, but I also agree that its not really worded that well. Nothing seems to be saying it works any differently than it did in 3.5.

ShadowChemosh wrote:

Manyshot requires a full-round action and so does Rapid Shot. So you can't stack them as you only get one full-round action per round to use. In 3.5 where Manshot was a standard action and rapid shot full-round action you still could not stack them.

That's not correct - both Manyshot and Rapid Shot are available at the same time. They aren't separate full-round actions - they're options you can use when taking a full attack, so you can use both together (just like you can use Combat Expertise and Power attack together - they aren't separate actions, they're simply modifiers to your attacks that add damage or AC).

ShadowChemosh wrote:

I would have to say yes its at the highest BAB, but I also agree that its not really worded that well. Nothing seems to be saying it works any differently than it did in 3.5.

This is right though. It should specify that it's at the highest attack bonus, but as far as I'm aware any time an extra attack is given and a penalty isn't outright stated, it's made at your full attack bonus.

I was about to dispute that but after reading it, I notice it now says when making a full attack action as opposed to 3.5's "as a standard action..."

but uses one attack roll for two arrows

18(2 damage rolls),18,13,8,3

wrote:

but uses one attack roll for two arrows

Ah sorry got it noted as 2 seperate shots, but surely its only one roll.

18(2 damage rolls),18,13,8,3

Ah Thanks Jadeite, knew there was something missing.

1 Manyshot > turns to 2 Dam-rolls
1 Rapid shot
1 Speedweapon
3 Normal

So actually 7 Damage-rolls.

Speed don`t stack with haste?

If not, Dual Wield gets 1 attackroll as an advantage.

Ah Thanks Jadeite, knew there was something missing.

1 Manyshot > turns to 2 Dam-rolls
1 Rapid shot
1 Speedweapon
3 Normal

So actually 7 Damage-rolls.

Speed don`t stack with haste?

If not, Dual Wield gets 1 attackroll as an advantage.

...
That's not correct - both Manyshot and Rapid Shot are available at the same time. They aren't separate full-round actions - they're options you can use when taking a full attack, so you can use both together (just like you can use Combat Expertise and Power attack together - they aren't separate actions, they're simply modifiers to your attacks that add damage or AC).
.....

Now I really like the changes they did to these feats now as at first I didn't.

Thanks

Damn good catch. You are correct I read the feats too fast and too stuck in my 3.5 rules still. The wording is a little subtle, but it is saying during a full-attack not it actually requires a full-round action. I was also still stuck in the Vital Strike Cleave discussions I guess. =)

Now I really like the changes they did to these feats now as at first I didn't.

Thanks

You also get to use a buckler with archery (which gives you 7 points of AC more than dual wield).

Also the description of Speed weapons makes it's bonus attack incompatible with "similar effects, such as a Haste spell", and I think this includes Rapid Shot.

Good stuff all! Thanks!

I was thinking they might stack but I thought I better get some other thoughts on this in case I was wrong.

I guess until there is something stated more definitively, will just keep using RS at highest attack bonus.

Thanks again!:)

I thought that using a two handed weapon prevented you from including a buckler's AC bonus. Is this accurate?

Buckler: This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm. You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it. You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a –1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you lose the buckler's AC bonus until your next turn. You can cast a spell with somatic components using your shield arm, but you lose the buckler's AC bonus until your next turn. You can't make a shield bash with a buckler.

In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you lose the buckler's AC bonus until your next turn.

Does a Speed weapon not stack with Rapid Shot? I know you can't stack haste with a Speed wpn but would either/or stack with RS?

ShadowChemosh wrote:

In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you lose the buckler's AC bonus until your next turn.

This is the precise passage I was referring to. I believe that wielding a two handed weapon means that you are wielding a weapon in your off hand, and can't get the buckler's AC bonus.

The problem I have with new rules like this is very few players will remember to remove the buckler AC bonus when being attacked. Was the buckler so over powered that it needed to have this change? Never seen it cause a problem in any game I saw. Did others have the buckler being abused?

Does a Speed weapon not stack with Rapid Shot? I know you can't stack haste with a Speed wpn but would either/or stack with RS?

My own interpretation is that any single extra attack effect can be applied, but that none of them stack and give extra extra attacks. Other people may disagree with this interpretation.

Javell DeLeon wrote:

Does a Speed weapon not stack with Rapid Shot? I know you can't stack haste with a Speed wpn but would either/or stack with RS?

While the Haste spell description and the Speed weapon's description explicitly rule each other out, the Rapid Shot feat is not explicitly mentioned in either (and the Rapid Shot feat description says nothing about Haste or Speed weapons).

My own interpretation is that any single extra attack effect can be applied, but that none of them stack and give extra extra attacks. Other people may disagree with this interpretation.

It'd be nice to have a definitive answer. Sounds like one of those "whatever the DM decides" type things.

Dilvish the Danged wrote:

I thought that using a two handed weapon prevented you from including a buckler's AC bonus. Is this accurate?

Its correct as Bows and Crossbows are an exception.

Buckler: This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm. You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it. You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a –1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you lose the buckler's AC bonus until your next turn. You can cast a spell with somatic components using your shield arm, but you lose the buckler's AC bonus until your next turn. You can't make a shield bash with a buckler.

Does the last part "if you use a weapon in your off hand, you use lose the buckler's AC bonus.." not apply to the Bow or Crossbow? If not then could you not get the AC bonus with any two-handed weapon?

Konrad

Edited:
I read the Pathfinder version of Buckler and they did clarify it a bit, but I still think its worded not that well.

It now lists two handed weapons as having a -1 penalty. But at the end it does not list two handed weapons as losing the AC bonus, only off hand weapons and spells with somantic components.

I'm not arguing that two handed weapons should keep the AC bonus, just that I don't think Bows or Crossbows should get the AC bonus.

Buckler: This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm. You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it. You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a –1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you lose the buckler's AC bonus until your next turn. You can cast a spell with somatic components using your shield arm, but you lose the buckler's AC bonus until your next turn. You can't make a shield bash with a buckler.

With the way we have always interpreted the Buckler I think a better description of it would be....

Buckler: This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm. You can use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a –1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. You can use a bow or crossbow without the -1 penalty. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand or your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon, you lose the buckler's AC bonus until your next turn. You can cast a spell with somatic components using your shield arm, but you lose the buckler's AC bonus until your next turn. You can't make a shield bash with a buckler.

With the way we have always interpreted the Buckler I think a better description of it would be....

Buckler: This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm. You can use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a –1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. You can use a bow or crossbow without the -1 penalty. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand or your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon, you lose the buckler's AC bonus until your next turn. You can cast a spell with somatic components using your shield arm, but you lose the buckler's AC bonus until your next turn. You can't make a shield bash with a buckler.

ShadowChemosh wrote:

Dilvish the Danged wrote:

I thought that using a two handed weapon prevented you from including a buckler's AC bonus. Is this accurate?

Its correct as Bows and Crossbows are an exception.

Buckler: This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm. You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it. You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a –1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you lose the buckler's AC bonus until your next turn. You can cast a spell with somatic components using your shield arm, but you lose the buckler's AC bonus until your next turn. You can't make a shield bash with a buckler.

Hmm, I always took it to mean when you were using a Bow or Crossbow you did not take the -1 penalty, but you still didn't get the AC bonus.

Sorry about the mis-quote everyone. I wish I could go back and change posts to prevent such future issues...

Damn good catch. You are correct I read the feats too fast and too stuck in my 3.5 rules still. The wording is a little subtle, but it is saying during a full-attack not it actually requires a full-round action. I was also still stuck in the Vital Strike Cleave discussions I guess. =)

ShadowChemosh wrote:

Damn good catch. You are correct I read the feats too fast and too stuck in my 3.5 rules still. The wording is a little subtle, but it is saying during a full-attack not it actually requires a full-round action. I was also still stuck in the Vital Strike Cleave discussions I guess. =)

I think your first interpretation was correct and that poor wording of the feats is opening the door for misinterpretation.

You must use the full attack action to use this feat.

Ok, so does that mean it works whenever I make a full attack, or does that mean using the feat is a full attack action? If it's an action of it's own, will other feats apply to it?

The Pathfinder wording is way more clear.

When making a full-attack action with a ranged weapon, you can fire one additional time this round.

All you have to do is check "Am I making a full attack?" and "Am I using a ranged weapon?" if so, it applies, if not, it doesn't, regardless of what other feats or conditions apply.

I see your point.
Rules for TWF and sage advice did however clarify the meaning of that frase. When read in its context there is no doubt that the use of Rapid Shot itself was a full-attack action.

I think that is one of the problems facing PF right now. there is a lot of room for interpretation and we really need the designers to step up and set the rules in their right context.

Basically. Which aspects have been re-written in order to change game ballance and which have been so in order not to copy the PHB word by word.

Rules for TWF and sage advice did however clarify the meaning of that phrase. When read in its context there is no doubt that the use of Rapid Shot itself was a full-attack action.

I believe you're mistaken, and possibly misremembering something. The Sage (as well as the official 3.5 FAQ) had a question regarding the use of Manyshot and Rapidshot together, and both answered that they could not be used together because the 3.5 version of Manyshot was used "as a standard action" and Rapid Shot can only be used with the Full-Attack action. This in no way indicates that Rapid Shot is a Full-round action, only that it's effects are only applied to full attacks, and thus, was incompatible with Manyshot.

I was in a v.3.5 game a few weeks ago and witnessed some craziness surrounding the use of rapid shot and manyshot together. I posted a thread about it here.

As for Pathfinder RPG, can someone summarize for us where we've landed with this thread. What is our current Pathfinder RPG understanding, please? Thanks.
—Pax

In Pathfinder, you can use manyshot and rapid shot together.

When you do, your first shot shoots two arrows, your all shots suffer a -2 penalty and you gain one extra attack at highest attack bonus.

In 3.5 you can't use manyshot with rapid shot.

In Pathfinder, you can use manyshot and rapid shot together.

When you do, your first shot shoots two arrows, your all shots suffer a -2 penalty and you gain one extra attack at highest attack bonus.

In 3.5 you can't use manyshot with rapid shot.

Last night the party's 6th level ranger was firing 4 arrows per round at his favored enemies and (assuming they all hit, and he is very good, so most did) doing 4d8+4(str)+16(favored enemy) damage - that is an AVERAGE of 36 point of damage per round for a 6th level character!!! - This is in a campaign where most of his encounters will be against his favored enemy (Second Darkness...). He was an unstoppable killing machine and had more kills than the rest of the party combined.

I don't mind the change in action type, or the fact that it can be combined with rapid shot, but why was the -4 removed????

Am i the only one who thinks this is broken???

Last night the party's 6th level ranger was firing 4 arrows per round at his favored enemies and (assuming they all hit, and he is very good, so most did) doing 4d8+4(str)+16(favored enemy) damage - that is an AVERAGE of 36 point of damage per round for a 6th level character!!! - This is in a campaign where most of his encounters will be against his favored enemy (Second Darkness...). He was an unstoppable killing machine and had more kills than the rest of the party combined.

Am i the only one who thinks this is broken???

Last night the party's 6th level ranger was firing 4 arrows per round at his favored enemies and (assuming they all hit, and he is very good, so most did) doing 4d8+4(str)+16(favored enemy) damage - that is an AVERAGE of 36 point of damage per round for a 6th level character!!! - This is in a campaign where most of his encounters will be against his favored enemy (Second Darkness...). He was an unstoppable killing machine and had more kills than the rest of the party combined.

I don't mind the change in action type, or the fact that it can be combined with rapid shot, but why was the -4 removed????

Ranger archers doubly so, since they can take improved precise shot at 6th level and forget about cover and concealment. They don't have to move around to get that clear shot when they can just full attack round after round after round.

Lehmuska wrote:

In Pathfinder, you can use manyshot and rapid shot together.

When you do, your first shot shoots two arrows, your all shots suffer a -2 penalty and you gain one extra attack at highest attack bonus.

In 3.5 you can't use manyshot with rapid shot.

Am i the only one who thinks this is broken???

Last night the party's 6th level ranger was firing 4 arrows per round at his favored enemies and (assuming they all hit, and he is very good, so most did) doing 4d8+4(str)+16(favored enemy) damage - that is an AVERAGE of 36 point of damage per round for a 6th level character!!! - This is in a campaign where most of his encounters will be against his favored enemy (Second Darkness...). He was an unstoppable killing machine and had more kills than the rest of the party combined.

I don't mind the change in action type, or the fact that it can be combined with rapid shot, but why was the -4 removed????

Am i the only one who thinks this is broken???

Last night the party's 6th level ranger was firing 4 arrows per round at his favored enemies and (assuming they all hit, and he is very good, so most did) doing 4d8+4(str)+16(favored enemy) damage - that is an AVERAGE of 36 point of damage per round for a 6th level character!!! - This is in a campaign where most of his encounters will be against his favored enemy (Second Darkness...). He was an unstoppable killing machine and had more kills than the rest of the party combined.

I don't mind the change in action type, or the fact that it can be combined with rapid shot, but why was the -4 removed????

The -4 was removed because it's no longer a standard action. Otherwise it would be a rather bad feat. At the moment, ranged, TWF, THF and weapon and shield are rather nicely balanced.

And a ranger is supposed to shine while fighting his favored enemy.

And a ranger is supposed to shine while fighting his favored enemy.

It was just shocking to see the overnight transformation of the ranger. Suddenly he had an extra attack, an extra arrow and his favored enemy bonus was getting added in 4 times a round. He was unstoppable. Great for him, it was definitely his epic night and he earned a significant amount of credibility with the rest of the party. Terrible for the GM... i wasn't able to cause any havoc at all :(

I'm not sure if this has been covered elsewhere but can you stack rapid shot with manyshot?

Also, does rapid shot still work as in 3.5? The extra attack is at your highest BA?

Javell DeLeon wrote:

I'm not sure if this has been covered elsewhere but can you stack rapid shot with manyshot?

Also, does rapid shot still work as in 3.5? The extra attack is at your highest BA?

Has there been any official word on this issue?

One friend have a problem with these feats, It will be great any oficial word about this for finish the discussion with his players.