According to the pathfinder Core book At 4th level you can stat bump your animal companions intelligence to 3 and then pick linguistics skill and give them the ability to speak and understand common. At that point you don't need handle animal anymore? Is this correct?

According to the pathfinder Core book At 4th level you can stat bump your animal companions intelligence to 3 and then pick linguistics skill and give them the ability to speak and understand common. At that point you don't need handle animal anymore? Is this correct?

Correct. Technically, once your companion gains the ability to speak, it shouldn't even be qualified as an animal anymore, but a magical beast. But that's got a host of game mechanics implications, so we decided to keep this as an animal companion and an exception to the rule that animals never have an Intelligene of 3 or higher.

In any event, yeah; once an animal gains an Intelligence of 3 and once it takes a rank in Linguistics it can understand a language. I'd say that most animals can't speak the language, of course, since they lack the anatomy to make those sounds, but they can certainly understand languages and perhaps even spell words out in the dirt or whatever. In any case, if a druid assigns a language to an animal companion that he can speak, he can then simply use speech to direct the animal companion's actions. You'd only need Handle Animal at this point if you wanted to change your animal's attitude, but you could also use Diplomacy at this point or Intimidate.

stuff

So with a 4 Int can my animal communicate things to me, like "Timmy's trapped in the well"? I ask because my animal companion in Crypt of the Everflame happens to be a collie.

Timmy's trapped in the well?

*BARK! BARK!*

The "Animals can't have an Int over 2" rule is one of the things that really irratated me about 3.5.
Given that various promates have reguly been taught basic sign language the ide is ridiculous, given that the basic DnD rule is that at Int 3+ you can understand/learn a language.
When you consider the frequency of success in teaching such I'm left with the logical assumption that "average Int" for animals should probably be 2-3, climbing as high as 6 for unboosted animals (in the same way that 18 is the standard max for PC races).

Stephen E

The "Animals can't have an Int over 2" rule is one of the things that really irratated me about 3.5.

Given that various promates have reguly been taught basic sign language the ide is ridiculous, given that the basic DnD rule is that at Int 3+ you can understand/learn a language.
When you consider the frequency of success in teaching such I'm left with the logical assumption that "average Int" for animals should probably be 2-3, climbing as high as 6 for unboosted animals (in the same way that 18 is the standard max for PC races).

Stephen E

While I can understand your frustrations... the game isn't built to support a wide range of sub-human intelligence. I realize that a lot of animals like apes and dogs and the wily octopus are a LOT smarter than other animals. And by the same extension, invertebrates aren't completely mindless like the game presents them.

But that's the way the monster types (for animal and vermin) work.

You can, of course, look at it this way. Animals that learn sign language are not typical animals. They're exceptional animals. Rather than having base stats of 10, 10, 10, 11, 11, 11, exceptional animals gain different stats and some of those will have higher intelligence scores as a result. But they're exceptions.

And in the end, this is really just a variant of the age-old argument about "what alignment is Batman." The game is supposed to be a simulation of reality, not a super-accurate recreation of it.

AND: I'm not sure, but I think I just implied that Batman is real.

AND: I'm not sure, but I think I just implied that Batman is real.

He's real as long as he lives in our hearts....

Stephen Ede wrote:

The "Animals can't have an Int over 2" rule is one of the things that really irratated me about 3.5.

Given that various promates have reguly been taught basic sign language the ide is ridiculous, given that the basic DnD rule is that at Int 3+ you can understand/learn a language.
When you consider the frequency of success in teaching such I'm left with the logical assumption that "average Int" for animals should probably be 2-3, climbing as high as 6 for unboosted animals (in the same way that 18 is the standard max for PC races).

Stephen E

While I can understand your frustrations... the game isn't built to support a wide range of sub-human intelligence. I realize that a lot of animals like apes and dogs and the wily octopus are a LOT smarter than other animals. And by the same extension, invertebrates aren't completely mindless like the game presents them.

But that's the way the monster types (for animal and vermin) work.

James, you missed my point. I like Pathfinder because it does inherently accept the existance of animals having 3+ Int scores in it's handling of Animal Companions. While animals start with Int 1 or 2, they can then spend their +1 stat increase for every 4HD to increase their Int above 2, and they're still animals.

#.5 implicitly said if a animal had Int higher than 2 it was no longer an animal. Pathfinder has gone away from that.

Stephen E

so a dog or wolf AC with a 3 int can learn gnoll and not only understand it but speak it?

so a dog or wolf AC with a 3 int can learn gnoll and not only understand it but speak it?

Understand it, yes, speak it, no, write it, maybe.

Dogs and Wolves don't have the vocal cords and possibly mouth arrangement to speak Gnoll, and having 3 Int won't help any.

Also keep in mind that their understanding of the language would be that of a humanoid of Int 3. In other words, poor. If you've ever spoken with significantly intelectually handicapped people you know how difficult and frustrating it is for both parties to communicate if you haven't had considerable experiance/practice.

There's a book series, Dhampir by Barb and J.C. Hendee, which has an intelligent fey Dog. It's Int score would be above human average at the minimum but it still can't talk and has trouble communicating until a scholar puts together a "talking cloth" with various words and letters on it for him to point at with his paw, and even then communication can be painfully slow at times.

Stephen E

Regardless of whether or not dogs can form words with their vocal chords in the real world, I would like to mention that talking animals isn't exactly rare in fantasy.

Personally with my animal companion I'm not increasing its Int to 3 or higher because I want to really delve into the tricks system with this character (and with the other companions he collects through the Animal Lord PrC), but any player of mine who did I'd let the companion speak.

Dogs and Wolves don't have the vocal cords and possibly mouth arrangement to speak Gnoll,

and having 3 Int won't help any.

Where can I find this anatomy book for Gnoll physiology? ;-)

Stephen Ede wrote:

Dogs and Wolves don't have the vocal cords and possibly mouth arrangement to speak Gnoll,

and having 3 Int won't help any.

Where can I find this anatomy book for Gnoll physiology? ;-)

"Grey's Anatomy of Humanoid Monsters". It's a must for any serious conniseur. :-)

AND: I'm not sure, but I think I just implied that Batman is real.

I'm BATMAN!

You know, for a game that has wizards casting fireballs, barbarians going into frenzy rages, clerics channeling energy to damage undead, and druids shapechanging into animals... I am NOT going to complain if an animal companion with 3 INT or higher SPEAKS.

last time I looked humans did not have the physiology to shape change either, but they do in the game... so I think a talking dog is easily within the realm of acceptance.

Besides didn't you ever watch Mr Ed as a kid? OBVIOUSLY horses can talk, and pigs, cows, chickens and more talk in Babe... I mean CHICKENS can TALK! WHOOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAAA they don't even have lips! lol

:)

I'm BATMAN!

I mean CHICKENS can TALK! WHOOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAAA they don't even have lips! lol

Neither do parrots ;)

Krome wrote:

I mean CHICKENS can TALK! WHOOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAAA they don't even have lips! lol

Neither do parrots ;)

lol I was going to make a joke but realized it was seriously R-rated! and thought better not.

though I a not sure what carrots have to do with this thread...

Increasing the intelligence of the animal companion and allowing it to take any feat it can qualify opens up the companion to a whole new level.

Lets take a 9 level druid with its ape animal companion.

feat 1 light armor prof
feat 2 combat reflexes
4th level bump int, ape gets large and can now understand common
feat 3 weapon prof great sword
feat 4 stand still

at 9th level the ape has 6 bab

so you have an ape with 24 str 2 attacks a round with a large great sword and a bite attack that can basically control all the squares 10' around him with stand still. He also has 25+ ac

Now the real fun. animal growth!

So you have a huge ape wrecking machine with 32 str and a huge great sword with 15 foot reach attacking with +17/+12 to hit and damaging for 4-24+16 damage 2x a round and that don't include magic items. Not to shabby...if I am correct in my assumptions and math...I see a massive influx of ape animal companions in the near future...

Keep in mind the Ape does have low HD and onlt D8 for it's HD.

But otherwise, yes, you have a great bodyguard.

so you have an ape with 24 str 2 attacks a round with a large great sword and a bite attack that can basically control all the squares 10' around him with stand still. He also has 25+ ac

Now the real fun. animal growth!

So you have a huge ape wrecking machine with 32 str and a huge great sword with 15 foot reach attacking with +17/+12 to hit and damaging for 4-24+16 damage 2x a round and that don't include magic items. Not to shabby...if I am correct in my assumptions and math...I see a massive influx of ape animal companions in the near future...

Needs less greatsword and more reach weapon + standstill.

30' threatened area where enemies just don't move is hard to beat.

Edit: Unfortunately, this actually doesn't work as well as I'd hoped. Replace reach weapon with guisarme and tripping will work as well.

That is pretty good. The only problem i see is the 15' around the ape that he can't threaten. Maybe drop stand still and pick up another weapon prof instead. Use heavy flail(trip disarm) for close encounters and Guisarme(trip) for far away attacks.