I just have a quick question about multi classing. If at first level I create a cleric, then at second level, I decide to take a level of wizard, so I have a cleric / wizard 1/1, what do I get for taking a level of wizard? Do I get a spell book and bonded item or do I have to purchase these items? thanks

I just have a quick question about multi classing. If at first level I create a cleric, then at second level, I decide to take a level of wizard, so I have a cleric / wizard 1/1, what do I get for taking a level of wizard? Do I get a spell book and bonded item or do I have to purchase these items? thanks

Unless the PC defeats a Wizard and takes his spell book, he has to buy it. He will have to purchase the item to bond with.

ElyasRavenwood wrote:

I just have a quick question about multi classing. If at first level I create a cleric, then at second level, I decide to take a level of wizard, so I have a cleric / wizard 1/1, what do I get for taking a level of wizard? Do I get a spell book and bonded item or do I have to purchase these items? thanks

Unless the PC defeats a Wizard and takes his spell book, he has to buy it. He will have to purchase the item to bond with.

In other words, do it the other way around.

In other words, do it the other way around.

Yeah, you'll save yourself some gold if you go wizard first then cleric. I myself just started an Arcane Archer, Wizard 1/Fighter 8/AA 10/EK 1, got to start with a masterwork composite longbow (14 str requried) worth 600 gp for free. Of course, I'm not proficient in it yet...but proficiency is overrated when you've got True Strike.

Revil Fox wrote:

In other words, do it the other way around.

Yeah, you'll save yourself some gold if you go wizard first then cleric. I myself just started an Arcane Archer, Wizard 1/Fighter 8/AA 10/EK 1, got to start with a masterwork composite longbow (14 str requried) worth 600 gp for free. Of course, I'm not proficient in it yet...but proficiency is overrated when you've got True Strike.

Elves are trained... so I'd have to assume it's a half-elf? I myself am doing a pretty similar thing for PFS, Wizard 2/Fighter 5/AA 5. Elf is pretty good for it though, +2 Dex and Int.

Unless the PC defeats a Wizard and takes his spell book, he has to buy it. He will have to purchase the item to bond with.

Where does this appear in the rules ? It makes absolutely no sense to me that the order in which you multiclass would have such a costly impact.

Charles Scholz wrote:

Unless the PC defeats a Wizard and takes his spell book, he has to buy it. He will have to purchase the item to bond with.

Where does this appear in the rules ? It makes absolutely no sense to me that the order in which you multiclass would have such a costly impact.

Well, technically the rules state that a Wizard starts with a spellbook and their bonded item. In practice however, you're supposed to play through 1st level. These items don't just appear in your pack out of nowhere.

On the other hand, one might presume that you've been studying to be a wizard all along (since it does presumably take awhile) and at 2nd level is about where you had that eureka moment and poof, you're a wizard. Now you can actually use that spellbook you've been lugging around. The arcane bonded item however is a little stickier. I wouldn't allow you to have a masterwork weapon at 1st level for free just because you said you planned to take a wizard level at 2nd. However, if you were playing in my game you might happen to find a masterwork weapon (or other item) that suits your needs around the time you'd be leveling up. Funny how things work out that way.

Of course the character gets the spellbook free at that point. Rulewise: Nowhere it says that you need to spend a lot of money to multiclass to wizard. Balancewise: It makes no sense to penalize that. RPwise:

You don't become a wizards overnight. The character has to study for years or even decades. He has done that even during the first level. As he gains second level, he won't go from "A character who cared nothing about arcane magic" to "A wizard" instantly. Rather he has been a cleric who has also been studying arcane magic. As he gains level, he finally gets to the point where he can cast his first spells.

Yeah, technically it would be reasonable that first spells would be cantrips, etc... But that is the crux of level based system. If intelligence 20 wizard has no ranks in knowledge planes, he can't use the skill. If he takes 1 rank, he gets a very good modifier of +9. That doesn't happen overnight but with the level based system we just need to accept that existing skills and abilities below certain limit just won't be represented in the character sheet.

If you are bothered by the "Where did this expensive book come from?", there is a simple explanation. Before the wizard has gained the ability to cast spells, his spellbook is unfinished and nearly useless. It is completely useless for people other than the wizard. (Even finished spells require spellcraft check for other people to interpret, unfinished low-level spells might just not be worth the effort it would take to finish those pages) As such, it has effectively had near zero value during the first level.

I just had a player do exactly this (Cleric 1 -> Wizard 1). I made him purchase the actual spellbook (15gp), but scribe his beginning spells in it for free (still taking the normal amount of time).

Assuming "it was there all along" is fine if you don't pay attention to things like characters falling in a sewer or being set on fire, but considering that I do, it's entirely unfair to the character who's already a wizard that he has to be careful of such things but the one who's "not a wizard yet" doesn't... even though later, retroactively, they both supposedly had spellbooks with them.

Also, it's 15 gold. Barely more than scribing one 1st-level scroll (which is where most of both casters' cash actually goes).

scribe his beginning spells in it for free (still taking the normal amount of time).

Which is, of course, 0 rounds.

... right? ;)

Free spells from leveling up take no time or money to scribe.

I just have a quick question about multi classing. If at first level I create a cleric, then at second level, I decide to take a level of wizard, so I have a cleric / wizard 1/1, what do I get for taking a level of wizard? Do I get a spell book and bonded item or do I have to purchase these items? thanks

Have you considered the apprentice rules in the 3.0 DMG? This would allow you to be a 0 level cleric and a 0 level wizard (Orisons, cantrips and a few 1st level spells from both lists). When you reach 2nd level, you become a 1st level cleric and a 1st level wizard.

I would talk to your GM before hand, to verify their take on it. For myself, it would depend on the campaign and the back story of the character. And on what the bonded item was (weapon, ring amulet, etc.). But most likely, yes you would get the bonded item and the spellbook.

Have you captured a spellbook from an enemy? If so, it would be fairly easy to convert it to "your" spellbook.

If you go the other way (wizard to cleric), would you be upset with having to buy a holy symbol, a better weapon and heavier armor?

If you go the other way (wizard to cleric), would you be upset with having to buy a holy symbol, a better weapon and heavier armor?

Considering none of those are provided for free at 1st level, I don't see how it's relevant. Not to mention that it's probably not a good idea for the character in question to start wearing heavier armor, not if he wants to be able to still cast arcane spells reliably.

Not sure where this idea of not paying for the spellbook came from, nor why it's unfair to make him pay for it if he doesn't have it.

When you start at 1st level, you spend your starting funds on what you have with you. You don't get that spellbook for free at 1st level, you have to pay for it. Not sure why it would be considered 'unfair' to pay for it when you multiclass. I wouldn't charge them for starting spells in this spellbook. I've always taken it as 'Oh! That's how it works! Wow, lemme write this down'. And the writing down is how you cast those spells, it makes sense to you. So whatever time it would take to scribe them normally is how long it takes you to write them down (not like it takes a lot of time to scribe in some cantrips and 1st level spells). I treat them as 'bonus' spells you get for leveling up to 1st level, just like the ones you get when you hit 2nd or 3rd level with the wizard, IE: No gold cost.

That's not 'unfair'. What would be 'unfair' is suddenly giving one of the PC's a thousand gold pieces worth equipment and not giving it to the other PC's. I do the same thing for someone taking a level of cleric, they have to get a holy symbol before they have one, they don't just magically get one.

Mistwalker wrote:

If you go the other way (wizard to cleric), would you be upset with having to buy a holy symbol, a better weapon and heavier armor?

Considering none of those are provided for free at 1st level, I don't see how it's relevant. Not to mention that it's probably not a good idea for the character in question to start wearing heavier armor, not if he wants to be able to still cast arcane spells reliably.

A cleric starts with twice as much starting gold as does a wizard. I have always taken it for granted that the reason for this was to permit the cleric to purchase armor and a decent weapon.

As for wearing heavier armor, it would in part depend on the armor, then on the feat choice and finally on willing the caster is to have a spell fail on them.

Not sure where this idea of not paying for the spellbook came from, nor why it's unfair to make him pay for it if he doesn't have it.

When you start at 1st level, you spend your starting funds on what you have with you. You don't get that spellbook for free at 1st level, you have to pay for it.

Actually, a 1st level wizard starts with a free spellbook, as per the core, page 79, in the description of the wizard, spellbook section.

That's not 'unfair'. What would be 'unfair' is suddenly giving one of the PC's a thousand gold pieces worth equipment and not giving it to the other PC's. I do the same thing for someone taking a level of cleric, they have to get a holy symbol before they have one, they don't just magically get one.

Considering that a holy symbol only costs 1 gold (for a wooden one), I have always allowed a 1st level cleric to have one for free.

mdt wrote:

Not sure where this idea of not paying for the spellbook came from, nor why it's unfair to make him pay for it if he doesn't have it.

When you start at 1st level, you spend your starting funds on what you have with you. You don't get that spellbook for free at 1st level, you have to pay for it.

Actually, a 1st level wizard starts with a free spellbook, as per the core, page 79, in the description of the wizard, spellbook section.

Ah,

mdt wrote:

That's not 'unfair'. What would be 'unfair' is suddenly giving one of the PC's a thousand gold pieces worth equipment and not giving it to the other PC's. I do the same thing for someone taking a level of cleric, they have to get a holy symbol before they have one, they don't just magically get one.

Considering that a holy symbol only costs 1 gold (for a wooden one), I have always allowed a 1st level cleric to have one for free.

It all depends, if they are in the city, I usually do myself, but then again, I usually ask my players to take 10 gold off every couple of games for 'various sundries' and have them write that on their character sheet with a weight of 5 lbs. That's usually considered to be soap, plate, fork, spoon, change of clothes or two, small eating knife (not even a dagger, little 1d2 knife), flint & steel, canteen (full) and a cup. It's assumed that while you are adventuring that bad things happen to your various sundries over time (fork get's bent or breaks off, knife get's too dull to use, things get lost, cup get's cracked, etc). Usually it's about 5gp every couple of months of game time. I usually add small class specific things into that (small vial of oil for thief, wooden holy symbol for cleric, cloth and bottle of oil for fighter (polishing weapons and armor), pouch with spell components for wizard).

But I certainly don't give 15gp books to someone in the middle of nowhere "Oh, yeah, I had this book in my backpack. Oh the fire elemental burned it last week? Uh... it was magic so it didn't burn, right?"

I do agree with the above statement about the wizard starting with less gold, it makes sense, the stuff he's getting for free at 1st level (spell book with spells) certainly counts for most of the reduction in starting gold.

ZappoHisbane wrote:

Mistwalker wrote:

If you go the other way (wizard to cleric), would you be upset with having to buy a holy symbol, a better weapon and heavier armor?

Considering none of those are provided for free at 1st level, I don't see how it's relevant. Not to mention that it's probably not a good idea for the character in question to start wearing heavier armor, not if he wants to be able to still cast arcane spells reliably.

A cleric starts with twice as much starting gold as does a wizard. I have always taken it for granted that the reason for this was to permit the cleric to purchase armor and a decent weapon.

The fact remains that the character has to pay for it though. The starting gold is a balancing factor, so that the Fighter isn't running around naked. Consider it a class feature even, to allow those classes that require equipment to be playable at first level. A monk or Sorcerer can survive starting with 20 GP, perhaps even less. The fighter? Not so much.

When you decide to multiclass, you don't get gold coins magically appearing in your pouch to help pay for all the new equipment you'll need for that class. Once you're past 1st level you have to earn all of your gold and equipment the old fashioned way.

The fact remains that the character has to pay for it though. The starting gold is a balancing factor, so that the Fighter isn't running around naked. Consider it a class feature even, to allow those classes that require equipment to be playable at first level. A monk or Sorcerer can survive starting with 20 GP, perhaps even less. The fighter? Not so much.

When you decide to multiclass, you don't get gold coins magically appearing in your pouch to help pay for all the new equipment you'll need for that class. Once you're past 1st level you have to earn all of your gold and equipment the old fashioned way.

+1

Free spells from leveling up take no time or money to scribe.

Generally so, but in this case I decided otherwise because (A) he had downtime anyway, and (B) he didn't have the usual handwave of "you've been working on it all this time" because, as mentioned, he didn't actually have the book yet. :)

The fact remains that the character has to pay for it though. The starting gold is a balancing factor.

When you decide to multiclass, you don't get gold coins magically appearing in your pouch to help pay for all the new equipment you'll need for that class. Once you're past 1st level you have to earn all of your gold and equipment the old fashioned way.

I think that we are saying the same thing, just using different words/approach to do so.

My comment was directed at those who seemed to feel that you "had" to give a character who took a level in wizard a free spellbook and a MW item.

While a wizard who starts play at 1st level gets those items for "free", it was taken into consideration when the designers established the wizard's starting gold.

Start as a Cleric and at 2nd level you average +55 gp (+70 -15 for the spellbook) and +1 hit point compared to if you start as a Wizard. If you find a magic item while adventuring as a 1st level Cleric, you can make it your bonded item when you go to 2nd level. So there is a reasonable chance you won't ever need to buy a MW item to serve as your bonded item.

If you started as a Wizard and got the most expensive item (e.g., Composite Longbow), you would begin with +345gp (400gp MW item - 55gp difference between Cleric and Wizard).

When you sell your bonded item for 400gp (if you can get full price), you net 345gp. So, if you don't mind powergaming to such an extent that it hurts, IMO, you are trading a hit point for 345gp when you start as a Wizard. Of course, most players can't stomach being such blatant power-gamers.

ElyasRavenwood wrote:

I just have a quick question about multi classing. If at first level I create a cleric, then at second level, I decide to take a level of wizard, so I have a cleric / wizard 1/1, what do I get for taking a level of wizard? Do I get a spell book and bonded item or do I have to purchase these items? thanks

Have you considered the apprentice rules in the 3.0 DMG? This would allow you to be a 0 level cleric and a 0 level wizard (Orisons, cantrips and a few 1st level spells from both lists). When you reach 2nd level, you become a 1st level cleric and a 1st level wizard.

I love those 0-level rules, and that would be my recommendation as well. You need to work on them to make them fit for 3.5 or PFRPG, but that would be minor work overall.

EDIT: I just found some alternate and expanded apprentice level rules. They look interesting.

Stefan

Mistwalker wrote:

Have you considered the apprentice rules in the 3.0 DMG? This would allow you to be a 0 level cleric and a 0 level wizard

I love those 0-level rules, and that would be my recommendation as well. You need to work on them to make them fit for 3.5 or PFRPG, but that would be minor work overall.

I have used these rules MANY times to great effect with "concept-driven" PCs. Often they are Rogue/Wizards, Fighter/Rogues and so forth where a single Class doesn't really hit the mark and they are too low-level for a PrC.

FWIW, I do generally grant the PCs at 2nd level the balance of Skill Points from their better-skilled Class (Rogue or Ranger, usually) as if they had multi-classed normally with that class at 1st level, just to encourage/reward the RP of a "half-half" PC while not "cheating" them of Skill Points they would normally have gained from going a more traditional route.

I pull the same cheat with NPCs ... a War1/Exp2 blacksmith who retired after a few years in the town guard into his trade skill gets full Exp points at 2nd level as if he had done it at 1st (since he's on a slow progression anyway), while I reduce his War1 points (usually, some Exp stuff "overflows" to retroactively cover his War stuff, though).

Doesn't work the same for adventuring PCs, though.

FWIW,

Rez