The Dragon Disciple prestige class says it "adds his level to his sorcerer levels when determining the powers gained from his bloodline". Does that include bonus feats?

I.e., consider a sorcerer 5/dragon disciple 2. Does he get:

• one bloodline feat (from dragon disciple 2), or
  
• two bloodline feats (from dragon disciple 2 and effective sorcerer 7)?

My first reaction would have been to say the character above gets one feat (because bonus feats aren't bloodline powers, per se), but it looks like it's intended to give the bonus known spells associated with the bloodline too.

Any ideas?

To me it reads just powers. So a level 5 sorc/ 5DD gains the 9th level power, a 5/10 gains the 15th level power and a 10/10 gains the 20th.

It says bloodline powers. Not class features, and not advancing the bloodline as a sorc. So just the powers

It says bloodline powers. So just the powers

You also get the bonus spells.

It says bloodline powers. Not class features, and not advancing the bloodline as a sorc. So just the powers

That's what I thought, but then in the same paragraph it mentions the bonus spells known.

I would say no. It says bloodline powers.

If you notic the bloodline is broken down into a few parts. It lists a skill, Bonus Spells, Bonus feats, Arcana and then bloodline power.

As it says only powers and not you advance your bloodline. Powers are granted at 1,3,9,15 and 20. You would not grant every thing you would from being a single class sorc.

If you stay single class you gain the feats, and spells. The DD allows you to gain your powers but not everything

seekerofshadowlight wrote:

It says bloodline powers. Not class features, and not advancing the bloodline as a sorc. So just the powers

That's what I thought, but then in the same paragraph it mentions the bonus spells known.

I see that a bit confuing it says

"This ability does not grant bonus spells to a sorcerer unless he possesses spell slots of an appropriate level. Such bonus spells are automatically granted if the sorcerer gains spell slots of the spell's level."

So you would gain them but slower it seems, as you lose 3 casting levels. Still I would say no on feats as it does not say them at all

I don't agree. The sentences indicates that you advance in all aspekt of the Bloodline as you advance in the Dragon Diciple prestige class.

A statement/clarification of the desingers would be nice.

I don't agree. The sentences indicates that you advance in all aspekt of the Bloodline as you advance in the Dragon Diciple prestige class.

A statement/clarification of the desingers would be nice.

After reading the relevant passages carefully I think the kicker is that the bloodline only gives you access to some feats. What is does not is saying when you gain these feats, like it does for the bonus spells. So, since you don't advance as a sorcerer you miss the bloodline feat progression from the sorcerers progression table.

Of course this could be a simple omission and you indeed get both the dragon disciples and the sorceres feat progession, but ...

... once again I feel the urge to quote Caelic's 10th commandment of Practical Optimization: If something seems too good to be true, it probably is.

:)

... once again I feel the urge to quote Caelic's 10th commandment of Practical Optimization: If something seems too good to be true, it probably is.

:)

Definitely. :-)

I'm not saying I want it to be true, I'm just saying it's currently a little vague.

Isn't there a Paizo official around who can clarify this issue?

Isn't there a Paizo official around who can clarify this issue?

They're all suffering from PGCSD (post-Gen Con stress disorder) at the moment. :-)

Blood of Dragons grants only the Draconic Bloodline Powers if the PC does not have any levels in Sorcerer. If the PC does have levels in Sorcerer, and he possesses spell slots of an appropriate level equal to the bonus spells, then those are acquired as well.

Bonus feats are covered under Bloodline Feat, granted at 2nd, 5th, and 8th Dragon Disciple levels.

A sorcerer 5 / dragon disciple 2 would have:
- Bloodline Powers as a 7th level Draconic Sorcerer
- Bloodline Bonus Spells as a 7th level Draconic Sorcerer (if he could cast the appropriate spells)
- One Bloodline bonus feat, from being a 2nd level Dragon Disciple

In terms of spells, the above example would gain Mage Armor at 3rd level Sorcerer and Resist Energy at 5th level Sorcerer. At Sorc 5 / DD 2, he is a 6th level Caster and may cast 3rd level spells, so he will still gain the Fly spell (7th level).

A Sorc 5 / DD 6, however, has a caster level of 9. So despite having reached 11th level, he would not gain the Spell Resistance spell as he could not cast 5th level spells. Once he has reached Caster Level 10 (and can cast 5th level spells), he will gain the bonus spell automatically.

Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys

Blood of Dragons grants only the Draconic Bloodline Powers if the PC does not have any levels in Sorcerer. If the PC does have levels in Sorcerer, and he possesses spell slots of an appropriate level equal to the bonus spells, then those are acquired as well.

Bonus feats are covered under Bloodline Feat, granted at 2nd, 5th, and 8th Dragon Disciple levels.

A sorcerer 5 / dragon disciple 2 would have:
- Bloodline Powers as a 7th level Draconic Sorcerer
- Bloodline Bonus Spells as a 7th level Draconic Sorcerer (if he could cast the appropriate spells)
- One Bloodline bonus feat, from being a 2nd level Dragon Disciple

In terms of spells, the above example would gain Mage Armor at 3rd level Sorcerer and Resist Energy at 5th level Sorcerer. At Sorc 5 / DD 2, he is a 6th level Caster and may cast 3rd level spells, so he will still gain the Fly spell (7th level).

A Sorc 5 / DD 6, however, has a caster level of 9. So despite having reached 11th level, he would not gain the Spell Resistance spell as he could not cast 5th level spells. Once he has reached Caster Level 10 (and can cast 5th level spells), he will gain the bonus spell automatically.

Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys

I am not conviced. You state a lot of things but you can't back them up.

If the PC does have levels in Sorcerer, and he possesses spell slots of an appropriate level equal to the bonus spells, then those are acquired as well.

Thats just a gues. It is not written this way. It only makes sense to gain the Bloodline Spells if you also get the feats.

It's not even slightly ambiguous.

Even if it was I think common-sense would say that no, you don't get two classes worth of bonus feats.

The PFRPG simply calls the Bloodlines; "Bloodlines."

These are then broken down in each category into:
Class Skill
Bonus Spells
Bonus Feats
Bloodline Arcana
Bloodline Powers

So when Blood Of Dragons refers to; "Powers gained from his bloodline." And to; "Bloodline powers..." it is clearly referring simply to Bloodline Powers and not Bloodline Arcana or Bonus Feats.

The reference to Bonus spells is actually an attempt to remove ambiguity by making it clear that bonus spells are gained at a rate consistent with Spells per Day even though bloodline powers are gained more swiftly (at a rate of combined sorc/dd levels).

Isn't there a Paizo official around who can clarify this issue?

They are all trying to get back from GenCon and having a hell of a time at it.

I am not conviced. You state a lot of things but you can't back them up.

Blood of Dragons mentions "the powers gained from his bloodline" and "bonuses" like speaking of all aspects of the bloodline.

Blood of Dragons excerpt

"If the dragon disciple does not have levels of sorcerer he instead gains bloodline powers of the draconic bloodline , using his dragon disciple level as his sorcerer level to determine the bonuses gained."

bonus is a multi-purpose word in PFRPG referring to many different extra benefits. However the PFRPG consistently uses the term 'bonus spells' to refer to bonus spells, not the vaguer 'bonuses'

bloodline power has a singular meaning in PFRPG and it refers to the powers gained by sorcerers at levels 1, 3, 9, 15 and 20.

Whilst the language might have been less opaque the meaning is easily unraveled.

So no one really knows, and Jason hasn't noticed this question?

I wouldn't mind seeing more feats on dragon disciples. There are not that many reasons to go dragon disciplining instead of single-class sorcerer.

Hm...

Blood of Dragons:A dragon disciple adds his levels to his sorcerer levels to determine the powers gained from his bloodline. If the dragon disciple does not have levels sorcerer, he instead gains powers from the draconic bloodline, using his dragon disciple level as sorcerer levle to determine the bonuses gained. He must choose a dragon type upon gaining his first level of this class and thet type must be the same as his sorcerer type. This ability does not grant bonus spells to a sorcerer unless he possesses spell slots of an appropriate level. Such bonus spells are automatically granted if the sorcerer gains spell slots of the spell's level.

Now if bonuses equal feats, bonus spells, bloodline arcana, and bloodline abilities, than the DD is much stronger than it appears to be, IMO, at first glance.

So no one really knows, and Jason hasn't noticed this question?

It probably slipped under the radar. As other folks have said, I'm 99% sure that bonus feats aren't supposed to be advanced.

I am not conviced. You state a lot of things but you can't back them up.
Blood of Dragons mentions "the powers gained from his bloodline" and "bonuses" like speaking of all aspects of the bloodline.

Oh silly mortals.

Here, I shall go over this piece by piece.

Blood of Dragons: A dragon disciple adds his level to his sorcerer levels when determining the powers gained from his bloodline. If the dragon disciple does not have levels of sorcerer, he instead gains bloodline powers of the draconic bloodline, using his dragon disciple level as his sorcerer level to determine the bonuses gained. He must choose a dragon type upon gaining his first level in this class and that type must be the same as his sorcerer type.

This ability only grants the Bloodline Powers. This does not include feats, and I would not say it included spells except the last line covers this (which I will go into later).

The question on whether or not "Bloodline Powers" includes Feats is a simple one. Look at the Sorcerer class bloodlines. The bonuses are divided up into Class Skill, Bonus Spells, Bonus Feats, Bloodline Arcana, and Bloodline Powers. Blood of the Dragons is therefore referencing anything under the Bloodline Powers header. In the case of Draconic, this means Claws, Dragon Resistances, Breath Weapon, Wings, and Power of Wyrms (if very high level).

Spells are granted because of the last couple sentences under Blood of Dragons.

This ability does not grant bonus spells to a sorcerer unless he possesses spell slots of an appropriate level. Such bonus spells are automatically granted if the sorcerer gains spell slots of the spell's level.

By this text, you can see that if a sorcerer does possess spell slots of an appropriate level then he gains the bloodline bonus spells. If he does not, they are still automatically granted if the sorcerer gains spell slots of the spell's level.

Simple enough. As for feats?

Bloodline Feat: Upon reaching 2nd level, and every three levels thereafter, a dragon disciple receives one bonus feat, chosen from the draconic bloodline's bonus feat list.

The Dragon Disciple receives bonus feats off of the Bloodline's feat list at 2nd level, 5th level, and 8th level. One time each.

Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys

One more time with the bloodline bonus spells known, this time with a bard lead in for the dragon disciple class.

Example: Bard 5 Dragon Disciple 4

No bloodline bonus spells for a Bard. The only time bonus spells are mentioned are in regards to Blood of Dragons, and then only if the character is a Sorcerer.

Though my godly instincts have a feeling this may be clarified in an errata.

Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys

-Blood of Dragons
Q: What does this the powers gained from his bloodline and bloodline powers refer to? Only Bloodline Powers from the draconic bloodline sorcerer, or Bonus Spells in addition to the Bloodline Powers, or Bonus Feats and Bonus Spells in addition to the Bloodline Powers.
A:(Jason Bulmahn 8/26/2009) Just the abilities listed under Bloodline Powers in each Bloodlines description. In addition, you gain the bloodline spells if you have levels of sorcerer and the appropriate slots available to you. You gain the feats at the rate indicated by the pclass.

Jason said this in the List of Errata in Pathfinder Core Rulebook thread. Hopefully this helps give a bit of an official answer. =)

Excellent.

Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys

So in the case of a Sor 15 / DD 5 do i get all of the bonus spells as well as bloodline powers???

So in the case of a Sor 15 / DD 5 do i get all of the bonus spells as well as bloodline powers???

Why you care? You fighter, not twitchy finger sorcerer.

so a sorcerer 10/ DD 5 has +7 natural armour?

or a Ftr 2/sorc 4/DD 7 has a +5 natural armour bonus?

That seems like a lot.

I'm having a little conflict with my GM regarding one aspect of these Bloodline Powers.

My character is currently Sorcerer-5/Dragon Disciple-3

At 3rd level DD, I get a breath weapon and it refers you to page 75.

Under Blood of Dragons, it says "A dragon disciple adds his level to his sorcerer levels when determining the powers gained from his bloodline."

This tells me that my breath weapon should do 8d6 damage 1x/day, and when I gain another character level, I will have a 9d6 breath weapon that I can use 2x/day.

My GM says that my breath weapon only does 5d6, and will remain that way until I gain more levels of sorcerer.

Which is it? 5d6 damage? or 8d6?

Which is it? 5d6 damage? or 8d6?

8d6.

Since the breath weapon ability is one of the bloodline powers of the draconic bloodline, you add your dragon disciple level to your sorcerer level to determine its damage.

so a sorcerer 10/ DD 5 has +7 natural armour?

or a Ftr 2/sorc 4/DD 7 has a +5 natural armour bonus?

That seems like a lot.

I would like some clarification on this, though I suspect the natural armor bonus from dragon disciple does not stack at all with those from the bloodline sorcerer (or that from dragon form).

Werecorpse wrote:

so a sorcerer 10/ DD 5 has +7 natural armour?

or a Ftr 2/sorc 4/DD 7 has a +5 natural armour bonus?

That seems like a lot.

I would like some clarification on this, though I suspect the natural armor bonus from dragon disciple does not stack at all with those from the bloodline sorcerer (or that from dragon form).

I am not sure about form of the dragon but why wouldn't it stack from both the sorc and DD levels?

One of the reasons I loved the improvements to the dragon disciple is that it gets so many new tricks! and doesn't lose that much (besides 2-3 spellcasting levels) but keeps the bloodline powers growing as well.

This class is meant to be the eldritch knight for sorcerers, since it has a very good hd (d12) decent attack progression (3/4) some attribute bonuses, natural armor class, you name it, I really liked the concept so much I made one for a campaign, needless to say I had so many options in my hands it was crazy, I was mainly the buffer of the group, and concentrated in raising my strength with a few damage spells that didnt require a saving throw, fun times indeed. Made him a half-orc to boot too!

*winces* sorry for the delayed post I know this is two months old now. I just felt that it hadn't come to any real conclusion. ( And I've only really just gotten around to making a dragon disciple for the first time so : P )

When I looked at the list of class abilities for the sorcerer it puts bloodline powers and blood line feats in separate entries so I think it's clear that you wouldn't get a sorcerer bonus feat by virtue of the dragon disciple class as it only states gaining blood line powers and bonus spells of the sorcerer line not anything else.

How ever all things listed under bloodline powers would be accrued by the nature of the power of blood ability ( so a 10th level sorcerer 10th level dragon disciple would still be immune to it's energy type for example and by that same logic would end up with a fairly crazy +7 natural armor from the way I've read it. I hope this clears things up a little bit more but my english isn't fantastic really so *winces again*

Sorry to raise this old beast again, but the bonus to NA from sorc and DD do stack. However, you take the better one when polymorphing into a dragon via form of the dragon.

Ruyan.

I know I would love to see this closed as well, here is my argument for gaining the feats via the wording of the text:

Blood of Dragons: A dragon disciple adds his level to his sorcerer levels when determining the powers gained from his bloodline. If the dragon disciple does not have levels of sorcerer, he instead gains bloodline powers of the draconic bloodline, using his dragon disciple level as his sorcerer level to determine the bonuses gained. He must choose a dragon type upon gaining his first level in this class and that type must be the same as his sorcerer type.

If the above was all there was, I would argue DDs get just the bloodline powers, however the last sentence is what confuses me and makes me believe you get the feats:

Blood of Dragons(cont.): This ability does not grant bonus spells to a sorcerer unless he possesses spell slots of an appropriate level. Such bonus spells are automatically granted if the sorcerer gains spell slots of the spell’s level.

Because of that last sentence's wording, it implies that you gain more then just powers. The statement doesn't say you get spells in addition to powers, it says you don't get spells unless a certain condition is met, implying to me that when they refer to bloodline powers, it is referring to the spells as well, meaning that they don't literally mean the things listed as Bloodline Powers This caused me to look at the Bloodline entry of the Sorcerer (since it is the only entry on anything related to bloodlines), the last paragraph of which is below.

Bloodline(3rd Paragraph): At 7th level, and every six levels thereafter, a sorcerer receives one bonus feat, chosen from a list specific to each bloodline. The sorcerer must meet the prerequisites for these bonus feats.

That statement to me says that the feats are one of the powers you get from the Bloodline. I feel that the grouping of the categories in the bloodline details (such as Bonus Spells Known and Bonus Feats) is more for easy readability. Let me ask you this as well, if only the items categorized as Bloodline Powers are granted, then a Bard/DD wouldn't gain the Bloodline Aracane power from a Draconic Bloodline, which seems a bit silly to me.

Any other thoughts?

I noticed that I had posted to this thread, and I was curious what I had to contribute. Surprise! I was actually the person who had asked the question in the first place. :-)

It is good to seet this thread because I had the same question. I could not access the link from Jason about the no sorcerer feat rule, and I guess that makes sense that you wouldn't get the extra feats, but I do agree that the Player's Guide is written in a way that makes you think that yoor DD does get the extra feats.

Can someone post the link so that I can read the origional post in the context of the thread?

Thanks