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Sprain Ogre, Thu, Nov 5, 2009, 01:56 PM

Just started running my first game in Pathfinder, and already got side swiped by a rule question on some feats. Namely, Rapid Shot and Manyshot. Can they both be used in the same full-attack action? (Giving the first shot two arrows, then the arrow from Rapid Shot, then whatever else from high BAB, all at a -2.) The rules have changed since 3.5 when Manyshot was a standard action, and not part of a full-attack action.

Is there a ruling on this? Did I miss something in the rules? Is this just how it works now? Thanks all!

grasshopper_ea, Thu, Nov 5, 2009, 02:18 PM

Sprain Ogre wrote:

Just started running my first game in Pathfinder, and already got side swiped by a rule question on some feats. Namely, Rapid Shot and Manyshot. Can they both be used in the same full-attack action? (Giving the first shot two arrows, then the arrow from Rapid Shot, then whatever else from high BAB, all at a -2.) The rules have changed since 3.5 when Manyshot was a standard action, and not part of a full-attack action.

Is there a ruling on this? Did I miss something in the rules? Is this just how it works now? Thanks all!

Yah, Basically rapid shot just gives you an extra attack, but all attacks suffer a -2 penalty, manyshot gives you another shot, so it's sort of like two weapon fighting and improved two weapon fighting. Neither of them are a full round action, but they affect your full attack action. Kinda confusing hope that helps.

seekerofshadowlight, Thu, Nov 5, 2009, 02:34 PM

ya know ya can not take any kind of extra attack unless it's a full round action. Or am I missing something?

Sprain Ogre, Thu, Nov 5, 2009, 02:39 PM

grasshopper_ea wrote:

Sprain Ogre wrote:

Just started running my first game in Pathfinder, and already got side swiped by a rule question on some feats. Namely, Rapid Shot and Manyshot. Can they both be used in the same full-attack action? (Giving the first shot two arrows, then the arrow from Rapid Shot, then whatever else from high BAB, all at a -2.) The rules have changed since 3.5 when Manyshot was a standard action, and not part of a full-attack action.

Is there a ruling on this? Did I miss something in the rules? Is this just how it works now? Thanks all!

Yah, Basically rapid shot just gives you an extra attack, but all attacks suffer a -2 penalty, manyshot gives you another shot, so it's sort of like two weapon fighting and improved two weapon fighting. Neither of them are a full round action, but they affect your full attack action. Kinda confusing hope that helps.

Right, okay, that makes sense. Thanks!

Dennis da Ogre, Thu, Nov 5, 2009, 02:47 PM

So if you normally have 2 attacks per round taking both feats gives you three shots with 4 arrows

1st shot fires 2 arrows with 1 attack roll at -2

2nd shot fires 1 arrow at -2

3rd shot fires 1 arrow at -7

Xum, Thu, Nov 5, 2009, 03:34 PM

Technically you could use Many shot while moving full speed and even using shot on the run ;)

Abraham spalding, Thu, Nov 5, 2009, 03:55 PM

Xum wrote:

Technically you could use Many shot while moving full speed and even using shot on the run ;)

Shot on the Run could work like that...

tejón (Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber), Thu, Nov 5, 2009, 04:01 PM

Manyshot: When making a full-attack action...

Shot on the Run: As a full-round action...

Not the same thing. :)

Farabor, Thu, Nov 5, 2009, 06:34 PM

seekerofshadowlight wrote:

ya know ya can not take any kind of extra attack unless it's a full round action. Or am I missing something?

Umm....no. Feats/spells can possibly allow this. For instance, that's one of the nice things about the new cleave/great cleave: The ability to take a move action and still get more than one attack per round (With the limitations inherent in the feats). Most things that grant extra attacks will either be a specific kind of new standard action, or say as part of a full attack action, which'll let you know whether or not you need the full round full attack action to get it.

Xum, Fri, Nov 6, 2009, 01:06 PM

tejón wrote:

Manyshot: When making a full-attack action...

Shot on the Run: As a full-round action...

Not the same thing. :)

You are pretty good Téjon. But you r wrong in this one.

Manyshot would work cause you make ONE attack and 2 arrows go out, and Shot on the run is a Full round action where u can only make ONE attack.

That's the way it goes in my view anyway.

Fake Healer, Fri, Nov 6, 2009, 01:21 PM

Xum wrote:

tejón wrote:

Manyshot: When making a full-attack action...

Shot on the Run: As a full-round action...

Not the same thing. :)

You are pretty good Téjon. But you r wrong in this one.

Manyshot would work cause you make ONE attack and 2 arrows go out, and Shot on the run is a Full round action where u can only make ONE attack.

That's the way it goes in my view anyway.

Sorry but it says in Manyshot that it is an extra shot as part of a full attack action. Shot on the Run is a full round action that allows you to make a single ranged attack. A single ranged attack is not even close to a full attack action.
Using rapid shot and manyshot together though should work with the first attack doing 2 arrows of damage if it hits and rapid shot adding an attack but imposing a -2 to hit to all the attack rolls. Not too shabby that, with a +6/+1 full attack you would have
1st attack at +4, if it hits there are 2 arrows of damage.
2nd attack at -2, normal damage if it hits.
3rd attack (rapid shot) at presumably a +4, if it is at your highest attack bonus, that does normal damage if it hits.
Not bad that, 3 attacks for 4 arrows of damage with only 1 iterative attack at +6BAB.

PirateDevon, Fri, Nov 6, 2009, 01:22 PM

Xum wrote:

tejón wrote:

Manyshot: When making a full-attack action...

Shot on the Run: As a full-round action...

Not the same thing. :)

You are pretty good Téjon. But you r wrong in this one.

Manyshot would work cause you make ONE attack and 2 arrows go out, and Shot on the run is a Full round action where u can only make ONE attack.

That's the way it goes in my view anyway.

It is a definition issue though, right?

"When making a full-attack action with a bow, your first attack fires two arrows"

Are you taking a full attack action with a bow? No, you are taking a Shot on the Run that allows you to make a single ranged attack.

Isn't this basically the Vital Strike argument redux?

Edit: Fake Healer beat me to it.

GentleGiant (Pathfinder Adventure Path, Pathfinder Chronicles, Pathfinder Companion Subscriber), Fri, Nov 6, 2009, 01:27 PM

Fake Healer wrote:

Using rapid shot and manyshot together though should work with the first attack doing 2 arrows of damage if it hits and rapid shot adding an attack but imposing a -2 to hit to all the attack rolls. Not too shabby that, with a +6/+1 full attack you would have
1st attack at +4, if it hits there are 2 arrows of damage.
2nd attack at -1, normal damage if it hits.
3rd attack (rapid shot) at presumably a +4, if it is at your highest attack bonus, that does normal damage if it hits.
Not bad that, 3 attacks for 4 arrows of damage with only 1 iterative attack at +6BAB.

If following your other progression, the bolded part should only be -1 - but yes, it's -2 to your normal +1 shot. I think you just got the two jumbled together. :-)

seekerofshadowlight, Fri, Nov 6, 2009, 02:33 PM

After looking them over I say they would stack. They are part of the same feat chain, but many shot seems like something that is always on, and just allows 2 arrows where rapid shot your giving up accuracy for extra attacks.

The wording on manyshot, seems that it happens anytime you use a full round action to do ranged attacks, where as rapid shot, it has the words You can in it. Seems to me manyshot is always one with full attack with rapid shot is like changing the setting to burst fire or something

James Risner (Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Pathfinder Adventure Path, Pathfinder Chronicles, Pathfinder Companion Subscriber), Fri, Nov 6, 2009, 11:17 PM

Xum wrote:

You are pretty good Téjon. But you r wrong in this one.

That's the way it goes in my view anyway.

Téjon is correct, you can't combine them in any way.

Torment, Tue, Nov 10, 2009, 09:07 AM

I'm playing level 6 ranger and just leveled up and am taking a level of wizard. I have the following feats: manyshot, rapid shot, precise shot, weapon focus. If I want to take vital strike as my next feat, would that stack with manyshot and rapid shot. My attack right now is +13/+8.

I am just wondering how all those would work together.

Paul Watson (Pathfinder Chronicles Superscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Planet Stories Subscriber), Tue, Nov 10, 2009, 09:21 AM

Torment wrote:

I'm playing level 6 ranger and just leveled up and am taking a level of wizard. I have the following feats: manyshot, rapid shot, precise shot, weapon focus. If I want to take vital strike as my next feat, would that stack with manyshot and rapid shot. My attack right now is +13/+8.

I am just wondering how all those would work together.

Manyshot and Rapid shot would not stack with Vital Strike. They are both full attacks and vital strike only functions on a single (standard) attack action.

EDIT: So you could make one attack which would do a base 2d8 damage (using Vital Strike) and still make a move action. Or you could make a full attack at +13/+8. Or a full attack at +11/+11/+6 (Rapid shot). Or a full attack at +13 (to hit with two arrows)/+8 (one arrow) (Many shot). Or a full attack at +11 (to hit with two arrows)/+11 (one arrow)/+6 (one arrow) (Both).