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So... I can't take Improved Grapple with my animal companion without him having a 3 int and taking improved unarmed strike first?
It probably cannot, since it needs too have an unarmed attack (which most animals don't) in order to take improved unarmed strike and improved grapple. By RAW you could however make a weak case for taking the feats.
But what does the Int have anything to do with that?
So... I can't take Improved Grapple with my animal companion without him having a 3 int and taking improved unarmed strike first?It probably cannot, since it needs too have an unarmed attack (which most animals don't, in order to take improved unarmed strike and improved grapple. By RAW you could however make a weak case for taking the feats.
But what does the Int have anything to do with that?
Animal companions with an intelligence lower than 3 can not take feats outside the set described for animals in the Animal companion Section of the PHB.
Animal companions with an intelligence lower than 3 can not take feats outside the set described for animals in the Animal companion Section of the PHB.So... I can't take Improved Grapple with my animal companion without him having a 3 int and taking improved unarmed strike first?It probably cannot, since it needs too have an unarmed attack (which most animals don't, in order to take improved unarmed strike and improved grapple. By RAW you could however make a weak case for taking the feats.
But what does the Int have anything to do with that?
You should look in the PRPG in stead. The PHB is dead.
So... I can't take Improved Grapple with my animal companion without him having a 3 int and taking improved unarmed strike first?
Even if the prerequisite of Improved Unarmed Strike were waived, Improved Grapple is not on the "Animal Feats" list, so the companion would still need 3 Int to take it as a feat.
You should look in the PRPG in stead. The PHB is dead.
Obviously he was referring to the PFRPG, since the PHB has no such list and the PFRPG book does.
So... I can't take Improved Grapple with my animal companion without him having a 3 int and taking improved unarmed strike first?Even if the prerequisite of Improved Unarmed Strike were waived, Improved Grapple is not on the "Animal Feats" list, so the companion would still need 3 Int to take it as a feat.
You should look in the PRPG in stead. The PHB is dead.Obviously he was referring to the PFRPG, since the PHB has no such list and the PFRPG book does.
Thanks :)
In that case it is really up to the GM to allow animals improved grapple.
I might consider it for certain grapple prone animals (despite prereqs.) but in general they would be outside an animals reach - even an intelligent animal.
Even if intelligent animals have capabilities that exceed their normal counterparts the feat list is also a reflection upon an animals anatomic limitations.
So... I can't take Improved Grapple with my animal companion without him having a 3 int and taking improved unarmed strike first?Even if the prerequisite of Improved Unarmed Strike were waived, Improved Grapple is not on the "Animal Feats" list, so the companion would still need 3 Int to take it as a feat.
You should look in the PRPG in stead. The PHB is dead.Obviously he was referring to the PFRPG, since the PHB has no such list and the PFRPG book does.Thanks :)
In that case it is really up to the GM to allow animals improved grapple.
I might consider it for certain grapple prone animals (despite prereqs.) but in general they would be outside an animals reach - even an intelligent animal.
Even if intelligent animals have capabilities that exceed their normal counterparts the feat list is also a reflection upon an animals anatomic limitations.
Yeah, but, for instance, Improved Grapple makes sense for a Constrictor Snake...
Yeah, but, for instance, Improved Grapple makes sense for a Constrictor Snake...
I'm not sure I agree. Certainly a snake should be able to get a bonus to grapples, and it does -- the Grab special ability gives +4 to grapple checks. I could even see an exceptionally squeezy snake taking Weapon Focus (grapple) to give another +1. But I'm not sure that teaching an unintelligent snake a special wrestling technique (that doesn't just involve "bite and squeeze") would be easy or even possible.
Yeah, but, for instance, Improved Grapple makes sense for a Constrictor Snake...Not realy. The Grab ability the constrictor has grants a +4 to grapple checks (it already has the benefit of both inproved grapple and greater grapple and more). It would make more sense for you to convice your GM to make a Superior grapple feat allowing it to substitute BA for HD when grappling.
As hogarth says Improved grapple are wrestling moves or at least something you will expect humanoids and other non-natural grapplers to train.Likewise, Weapon Focus (grapple) would give another +1.I disagree. There is no such thing as Weapon Focus (grapple). Grapple is a combat maneuver and not a weapon.
Likewise, Weapon Focus (grapple) would give another +1.I disagree. There is no such thing as Weapon Focus (grapple). Grapple is a combat maneuver and not a weapon.
The PFRPG rules disagree with you:
"Weapon Focus (Combat)
Choose one type of weapon. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple (or ray, if you are a spellcaster) as your weapon for the purposes of this feat.
[Etc.]"
Christopher Van Horn
(Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Battles Case Subscriber)
I also agree that the grab ability should not stack with improved grapple, the idea behind grab is being able to do the maneuver and do it well. Besides which if it wasn't grappling with the appendage or body part that gets grab it wouldn't be getting the bonus anyways. It would then be using an unarmed strike and only getting a +2.
Yeah, but, for instance, Improved Grapple makes sense for a Constrictor Snake...I'm not sure I agree. Certainly a snake should be able to get a bonus to grapples, and it does -- the Grab special ability gives +4 to grapple checks. I could even see an exceptionally squeezy snake taking Weapon Focus (grapple) to give another +1. But I'm not sure that teaching an unintelligent snake a special wrestling technique (that doesn't just involve "bite and squeeze") would be easy or even possible.
Thus the extra point in intelligence to give it a 3
I also agree that the grab ability should not stack with improved grapple, the idea behind grab is being able to do the maneuver and do it well. Besides which if it wasn't grappling with the appendage or body part that gets grab it wouldn't be getting the bonus anyways. It would then be using an unarmed strike and only getting a +2.
Technically the Grab ability allows you to start a normal grapple or start a grapple with the attack form that triggered the grab ability. In the snakes case he can choose to perform a normal grapple by coiling around his victim or choose to start the grapple with his bite attack instead. In the case of the bite attack he has a -20 penalty to his cmb. However, if he succeeds, the opponent is considered grappled, but he is not.
Thus the extra point in intelligence to give it a 3Yeah, but, for instance, Improved Grapple makes sense for a Constrictor Snake...I'm not sure I agree. Certainly a snake should be able to get a bonus to grapples, and it does -- the Grab special ability gives +4 to grapple checks. I could even see an exceptionally squeezy snake taking Weapon Focus (grapple) to give another +1. But I'm not sure that teaching an unintelligent snake a special wrestling technique (that doesn't just involve "bite and squeeze") would be easy or even possible.
Agreed -- it's appropriate for an Int 3 creature, but not for an Int 1 creature like a snake. (Note -- you would need 2 "extra points", not an "extra point" of intelligence.)
Agreed -- it's appropriate for an Int 3 creature, but not for an Int 1 creature like a snake. (Note -- you would need 2 "extra points", not an "extra point" of intelligence.)Thus the extra point in intelligence to give it a 3Yeah, but, for instance, Improved Grapple makes sense for a Constrictor Snake...I'm not sure I agree. Certainly a snake should be able to get a bonus to grapples, and it does -- the Grab special ability gives +4 to grapple checks. I could even see an exceptionally squeezy snake taking Weapon Focus (grapple) to give another +1. But I'm not sure that teaching an unintelligent snake a special wrestling technique (that doesn't just involve "bite and squeeze") would be easy or even possible.
Oops. yeah you're right. I guess I made the erroneous assumption that all the animal companions were int 2.
What about Ability Focus(grapple or constrict or rake)?
The pre-req being a Special attack, and the snake has constrict as a special attack, the leopard has rake.
At the very worst the animal won't get the bonus on the check to initiate the grapple, but will get it to maintain the grapple & use the particular special attack.
What about Ability Focus(grapple or constrict or rake)?
The pre-req being a Special attack, and the snake has constrict as a special attack, the leopard has rake.At the very worst the animal won't get the bonus on the check to initiate the grapple, but will get it to maintain the grapple & use the particular special attack.
Ability Focus is not on the base list so your companion would need an int of 3 to take it.
Likewise, Weapon Focus (grapple) would give another +1.I disagree. There is no such thing as Weapon Focus (grapple). Grapple is a combat maneuver and not a weapon.The PFRPG rules disagree with you:
"Weapon Focus (Combat)
Choose one type of weapon. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple (or ray, if you are a spellcaster) as your weapon for the purposes of this feat.
[Etc.]"
I stand corrected.
I also agree that the grab ability should not stack with improved grapple, the idea behind grab is being able to do the maneuver and do it well. Besides which if it wasn't grappling with the appendage or body part that gets grab it wouldn't be getting the bonus anyways. It would then be using an unarmed strike and only getting a +2.
I did not say that they do not stack.
I say that in this example it makes no sense to give the animal improved grapple and that its grab ability already does more for it than improved and greater grab ever would.
Thus the extra point in intelligence to give it a 3Yeah, but, for instance, Improved Grapple makes sense for a Constrictor Snake...I'm not sure I agree. Certainly a snake should be able to get a bonus to grapples, and it does -- the Grab special ability gives +4 to grapple checks. I could even see an exceptionally squeezy snake taking Weapon Focus (grapple) to give another +1. But I'm not sure that teaching an unintelligent snake a special wrestling technique (that doesn't just involve "bite and squeeze") would be easy or even possible.
Still the feat is not on the animal companion feat list, which is as atributable to anatomy as it is to intelligence.
Intelligence of 3 does not in it self qualify the constrictor companion for improved grapple.
What about Ability Focus(grapple or constrict or rake)?
The pre-req being a Special attack, and the snake has constrict as a special attack, the leopard has rake.At the very worst the animal won't get the bonus on the check to initiate the grapple, but will get it to maintain the grapple & use the particular special attack.
No. Ability focus increases the DC of abilities by +2. Since there are no saving throws in grapples ability focus will not do any good.