I know Paizo released a full list of what would be in the Bestiary in the bonus bestiary pdf, but for some reason it slipped my mind when looking at it, and now that I have my pdf of the Bestiary, I have realized what I did not notice before.

The Pathfinder Bestiary does not include the variant stats for the different subtypes of the PC races. They include the three "deep" versions, ie: Drow (deep elf), Duerguar (deep dwarf), and Svirfneblin (deep gnome), but otherwise did not carry over the rest of the crew.

I really liked the Elves of Golarion book and how they fit the subtypes into their world, even if my mountain dwelling grey elf became a cliff diver for some reason when our game converted from 3.5 to Pathfinder, but not getting any Bestiary love wounds me :P

Are there any official conversions of the subraces that were present in the 3.5 book? Are all of the elves supposed to be +2 dex, +2 int, -2 con now? If there's nothing official yet, what are people's opinions of the stats for:

Wild Elf
Wood Elf
Grey Elf
Aquatic Elf
Forest Gnome
Tallfolk Halfling

That's probably not all of them, but you guys know what races I'm talking about.

Personally I like the subraces were left out. An elf is an elf is an elf.

The only thing seperating a "wild" elf or "wood" elf from a "high" elf is now flavor text.

I'm with Lazaro... don't miss subraces a bit. Paizo has a great supplement on elves that talks about all the different elf cultures and civilizations in Golarian, I know there is a similar thing for Forgotten Realms and Eberron. Sub-race type flavor belongs with the campaign setting more than the bestiary.

Edit: Seems like the biggest thing the subraces were used for wasn't for creating elf cultures but for players who wanted to make elves with various stat bonuses. If you want to let your players arbitrarily pick stats why not just open it up for all races and be done with it?

The only thing seperating a "wild" elf or "wood" elf from a "high" elf is now flavor text.

So far we've house ruled that the party wild elf is +2 dex, +2 wis, -2 int (in 3.5 it was +2 dex, -2 int), and my grey elf is +2 dex, +2 int, +2 wis, -2 str, -2 con (in 3.5 it was +2 dex, +2 int, -2 str, -2 con)

Personally I like the subraces were left out. An elf is an elf is an elf.

The only thing seperating a "wild" elf or "wood" elf from a "high" elf is now flavor text.

Subraces should be mostly flavor anyway - I think things like stats should remain the same, but mostly cultural racial traits (like Dwarves' hatred for goblinoids) might be subject to change.

An elf is not elf. Drow are not surface elves, wild elves are not aquatic elves. Bring back the forest gnome!

I was just wondering if that was going to be Paizo's official stance on the matter, or if they had to be cut for space.

An elf is not elf. Drow are not surface elves, wild elves are not aquatic elves. Bring back the forest gnome!

An elf is not elf. Drow are not surface elves, wild elves are not aquatic elves. Bring back the forest gnome!

Dragonborn3 wrote:

An elf is not elf. Drow are not surface elves, wild elves are not aquatic elves. Bring back the forest gnome!

An elf is an elf. Drow are not elves any longer really but something new. Forest gnomes are fey, which fits and aquatic could be a templet and it works just as well

I've been asking, repeatedly, when able (consider this another plug Paizo Peeps) for Alternate Build stuff in the Advanced Player Guide. That includes Alternate Class builds, and Alternate Race Builds (Elemental Builds, Wild Builds, Aquatic Builds, etc). I'd be perfectly happy with some quick neat little templates, say, 1/4 per page, a paragraph of fluff and neat easy to read adjustments. They shouldn't take up much (For Aquatic template, add breath water and swim speed, reduce land speed by 10 feet and decrease str by two and increase dex by two as an example).

I know I can do these myself, but it's much less of a headache if the players have something official to look over instead of me having to do all the work.

I have to say I love the quick templates, they have saved me so much time and head ach of late have to love em. I would be behind this ideal

ya know stuff like forest, subterranean, fey , winged , centaur a, multi legged and such would be grand

We decided relatively early to NOT include pages for halflings, humans, elves, and the like in the Bestiary. The Bestiary was to be and is first and foremost a monster book... and player races don't really have a place in a monster book. The core races are supported quite well by their entries in Chapter 2 of the core RPG, and we'll eventually have a 32 page support book for all of them in our Companion line (we've done elves already, dwarves should be out soon, and gnomes are coming up next). In those books we do talk a bit about racial variants, but they're not really anything different game-mechanics wise. Just as Golarion has 14 different ethnicities of humanity (such as Chelaxian, Vudran, Varisian, Taldan, etc.), there are different ethnicities for all of the demihuman races. Things like wild elves, gray elves, high elves, etc. But in Pathfinder, their racial modifiers and abilities are pretty much identical. We chose this route partially from customer feedback, but primarily because of our own preference. It's kind of stupid and more than a little racist, I think, to assign different abilities to different human ethnicities in the same way it's stupid to assign different abilities by gender. That's not the type of game we wanted to present to the world. And since we didn't detail different game stats for different types of humans, it made no sense to do something different for the demihumans.

Now that said, for drow, duergar, and svirfneblin... they're special cases. They've always been more "monstrous" than the core races, and when they were first created were meant to serve as NPCs or, more commonly, as antagonists or villains. They have additional powers and abilities over and above what a typical elf, dwarf, or gnome would have, and we can justifiably give them these abilities by assuming they'll be used mostly as monsters and not as PC races. But they're not merely subraces; they are very much their own races. That's why they're listed in the Bestiary under Drow, Duergar, and Svirfneblin, not like "Elf, Drow" or "Gnome, Svirfneblin."

I've been asking, repeatedly, when able (consider this another plug Paizo Peeps) for Alternate Build stuff in the Advanced Player Guide. That includes Alternate Class builds, and Alternate Race Builds (Elemental Builds, Wild Builds, Aquatic Builds, etc). I'd be perfectly happy with some quick neat little templates, say, 1/4 per page, a paragraph of fluff and neat easy to read adjustments. They shouldn't take up much (For Aquatic template, add breath water and swim speed, reduce land speed by 10 feet and decrease str by two and increase dex by two as an example).

I know I can do these myself, but it's much less of a headache if the players have something official to look over instead of me having to do all the work.

*whistles innocently*

We decided relatively early to NOT include pages for halflings, humans, elves, and the like in the Bestiary. The Bestiary was to be and is first and foremost a monster book... and player races don't really have a place in a monster book. The core races are supported quite well by their entries in Chapter 2 of the core RPG, and we'll eventually have a 32 page support book for all of them in our Companion line (we've done elves already, dwarves should be out soon, and gnomes are coming up next). In those books we do talk a bit about racial variants, but they're not really anything different game-mechanics wise. Just as Golarion has 14 different ethnicities of humanity (such as Chelaxian, Vudran, Varisian, Taldan, etc.), there are different ethnicities for all of the demihuman races. Things like wild elves, gray elves, high elves, etc. But in Pathfinder, their racial modifiers and abilities are pretty much identical. We chose this route partially from customer feedback, but primarily because of our own preference. It's kind of stupid and more than a little racist, I think, to assign different abilities to different human ethnicities in the same way it's stupid to assign different abilities by gender. That's not the type of game we wanted to present to the world. And since we didn't detail different game stats for different types of humans, it made no sense to do something different for the demihumans.

Now that said, for drow, duergar, and svirfneblin... they're special cases. They've always been more "monstrous" than the core races, and when they were first created were meant to serve as NPCs or, more commonly, as antagonists or villains. They have additional powers and abilities over and above what a typical elf, dwarf, or gnome would have, and we can justifiably give them these abilities by assuming they'll be used mostly as monsters and not as PC races. But they're not merely subraces; they are very much their own races. That's why they're listed in the Bestiary under Drow, Duergar, and Svirfneblin, not like...

MDT wrote:

I know I can do these myself, but it's much less of a headache if the players have something official to look over instead of me having to do all the work.

Yeah, the players argue less.

*whistles innocently*

Exactly...

Whistles innocently...

I've been asking, repeatedly, when able (consider this another plug Paizo Peeps) for Alternate Build stuff in the Advanced Player Guide. That includes Alternate Class builds, and Alternate Race Builds (Elemental Builds, Wild Builds, Aquatic Builds, etc). I'd be perfectly happy with some quick neat little templates, say, 1/4 per page, a paragraph of fluff and neat easy to read adjustments. They shouldn't take up much (For Aquatic template, add breath water and swim speed, reduce land speed by 10 feet and decrease str by two and increase dex by two as an example).

I know I can do these myself, but it's much less of a headache if the players have something official to look over instead of me having to do all the work.

I'm with Lazaro... don't miss subraces a bit.

stuff

mdt wrote:

I've been asking, repeatedly, when able (consider this another plug Paizo Peeps) for Alternate Build stuff in the Advanced Player Guide. That includes Alternate Class builds, and Alternate Race Builds (Elemental Builds, Wild Builds, Aquatic Builds, etc). I'd be perfectly happy with some quick neat little templates, say, 1/4 per page, a paragraph of fluff and neat easy to read adjustments. They shouldn't take up much (For Aquatic template, add breath water and swim speed, reduce land speed by 10 feet and decrease str by two and increase dex by two as an example).

I know I can do these myself, but it's much less of a headache if the players have something official to look over instead of me having to do all the work.

Umm... I hope not. I would be really disappointed if the APG was filled with stuff like this.

1) The book is not solely for your pleasure. All of us are customers, and every customer has different desires/needs.

2) I didn't ask for the book to be filled with stuff like this. I would like a chapter filled with stuff like this.

1) The book is not solely for your pleasure. All of us are customers, and every customer has different desires/needs.

2) I didn't ask for the book to be filled with stuff like this. I would like a chapter filled with stuff like this.

The ever increasing number of sub-races always bothered me.

Usually the only difference I saw between them was cultural.

Elves for example: Wood Elf, Wild Elf, High Elf, Grey Elf.....those always appear more to me to be cultural difference and ethnic variations.

If there are not going to be statistical differences between human ethnic groups, then I dont feel there should be between non-human ethnic groups either. If Keleshites use the same stats as the Ulfen who are the same as the Varisians, then the various elves should as well. Difference being purely cultural and appearance.

THe exceptions to this to me are obvious 'cousin races'....back to elves: the only sub-races I feel should have statistical difference are aquatic elves and drow. These have such a big shift, often magical reason for that shift.

Dwarves come down to Mountain and Hill Dwarves are just ethnic groups to me. Duergar are a cousin race. There are numerous reasons in most settings for the races to diverge.

If you are going to have subraces of races like elves, dwarves, gnomes and halfling then you should do the same for humans and orcs.

Personally, I would be happy if Paizo keeps it to Elves-Drow-Aquatic Elf (they really need another name)...dwarf-duergar...gnome-spriggan-svirfneblin...human...orc

-Weylin

I'll be honest, I'm all for racial variants. I like diferentiating them differently.

Oh, and guys, you don't NEED to racially vary the human cultures, the GM can do that himself with the human racial +2, for random example, GM could decide Chelaxians get +2 con or whatever. But the other races aren't independently variable ya know?

Be nice if they were official so I could use them when I play in other GM's campaigns, but I'll continue to run them myself.

mdt wrote:

1) The book is not solely for your pleasure. All of us are customers, and every customer has different desires/needs.

Just expressing my opinion as you did... it is likewise not solely for your pleasure.

mdt wrote:

2) I didn't ask for the book to be filled with stuff like this. I would like a chapter filled with stuff like this.

When I say stuff like this I don't mean stuff identical to this.

Then I don't know what you could have been referring to. When you quote my post and say 'I don't want stuff like this in the book', I don't see how I could take that to mean 'I don't want stuff like this, but, this stuff I guess is ok, but nothing like it'.

And I agree that options, like the 3.X Unearthed Arcana had in plenty, would be awesome, including alternate racial and class options. Taking it to the level of the 2E Player's Options books would, IMO, be a step too far in that direction, 'though.

I don't feel as if the sub-races are 'necessity', but I did enjoy playing one or two of them. I have to agree that the elven sub-races were indeed cultural, not ethnic.

However that can be handled by roleplay or even a minor bonus to a 'set of skills'(ex: woodelf - climb, swim, handle animal; greyelf - diplomacy, sense motive, profession/craft) if you really feel the need to be different. You wouldn't be able to use it in 'Society' play, but that's part of the charm of being able to take any character any where to any DM's table.

What would be acceptable variations among subraces to me would be switching out racial Weapon Familiarity or actual skill bonuses.

For humans I could see restricting their bonus feat to "must be selected from their class related or regional feats".

But large alteration of racial abilities among sub-races really annoys me without a really detailed and well-thought out explanation for it...such as Drow, Duerger and Svirfneblin.

-Weylin

I don't know about golarion but in FR the elven sub-races where indeed ethnic groups. A wood elf in a nice suit still could not pass as a sun elf, nr a sun elf for a moon elf, nor could a sea elf pass at all for the other races. The skin tons among other things were very different

I don't know about golarion but in FR the elven sub-races where indeed ethnic groups. A wood elf in a nice suit still could not pass as a sun elf, nr a sun elf for a moon elf, nor could a sea elf pass at all for the other races. The skin tons among other things were very different

There is some real world precedent for actual physical differences based on ethnic derivation. That's not being racist, that's just stating that people of asian descent tend (as an average) to be shorter than people of the western european decent. By the same token, males tend (as an average) to be stronger than females. Neither is better than the other, although specific situations may find one or the other more advantageous (when fighting, bigger & stronger is usually better when all other things are equal, when food is in short supply, having less body mass is generally much better for survival).

Now, is it worth the effort though to add that into an abstract class/race system for a game? Depends on how much detail you want.

I agree personally with the above, most of the time, smaller bits can handle it, weapon proficiencies, skill bonuses, etc. There may be occasions though, like Drow vs Elves, where you need to differentiate. For example, if your catfolk are vastly different by clan (tiger vs lion vs cheetah), or if a race is highly differentiated by sex (a really good example would be Trolls/Trollops from Robert Asprin's Myth series. Trollops have good str, dex, and uber cha, while Trolls have uber str, good con, and negative cha).

In the end, it all comes down to what you need from a race for your game or game system. I'm sure we may eventually see some other related races for PathFinder (After all, Jason and James have stated repeatedly they want to do a bestiary every year or two, so that's lots of options right there).

seekerofshadowlight wrote:

I don't know about golarion but in FR the elven sub-races where indeed ethnic groups. A wood elf in a nice suit still could not pass as a sun elf, nr a sun elf for a moon elf, nor could a sea elf pass at all for the other races. The skin tons among other things were very different

And body builds. From what I remember wood elves were alot stockier and a little shorter than the primary elves. (forget what they were called in FR)

Just didnt not like the different ability score modifiers and in some cases racial abilities that came with them.

I thought the descriptions of the Elven races in Faerun were great in all incarnations of that setting...at least up to 3.5.
-Weylin

seekerofshadowlight wrote:

I don't know about golarion but in FR the elven sub-races where indeed ethnic groups. A wood elf in a nice suit still could not pass as a sun elf, nr a sun elf for a moon elf, nor could a sea elf pass at all for the other races. The skin tons among other things were very different

And body builds. From what I remember wood elves were alot stockier and a little shorter than the primary elves. (forget what they were called in FR)

STarting weight was

70 lbs Avariels
90 f0r sun, and moon elves
100 for sea, cooper and green elves

Nothing there that demands separate states for them, save maybe the avariel being winged and all

kyrt-ryder wrote:

seekerofshadowlight wrote:

I don't know about golarion but in FR the elven sub-races where indeed ethnic groups. A wood elf in a nice suit still could not pass as a sun elf, nr a sun elf for a moon elf, nor could a sea elf pass at all for the other races. The skin tons among other things were very different

And body builds. From what I remember wood elves were alot stockier and a little shorter than the primary elves. (forget what they were called in FR)

All elves in FR save the avariel were the same base height 5'-6'6" Avariels where from 5'2"-6'2"

STarting weight was

70 lbs Avariels
90 f0r sun, and moon elves
100 for sea, cooper and green elves

Nothing there that demands separate states for them, save maybe the avariel being winged and all

The rest could have been covered by a single elf race write-up.

The sub-races in Realms were actually given different heights in Races of Faerun and the Player's Guide to Realms....if i recall Gold Elves were the tallest, with wild elves being the smallest surface elf subrace.

In Realms, the only elven races I felt needed seperate statistical changes were the Drow, the Avariel and the Aquatic Elves. But in offical books, each subrace had different ability modifiers and some racial abilities.

The rest could have been covered by a single elf race write-up.

The sub-races in Realms were actually given different heights in Races of Faerun and the Player's Guide to Realms....if i recall Gold Elves were the tallest, with wild elves being the smallest surface elf subrace.

And the height came from races of faerun. All elves save the avariels have the same height. Drow have the same height but reversed with females being taller then males

Weylin wrote:

In Realms, the only elven races I felt needed seperate statistical changes were the Drow, the Avariel and the Aquatic Elves. But in offical books, each subrace had different ability modifiers and some racial abilities.

The rest could have been covered by a single elf race write-up.

The sub-races in Realms were actually given different heights in Races of Faerun and the Player's Guide to Realms....if i recall Gold Elves were the tallest, with wild elves being the smallest surface elf subrace.

Your right on needless subrace stats, but even sea elves just needed some add on not whole new states

And the height came from races of faerun. All elves save the avariels have the same height. Drow have the same height but reversed with females being taller then males

I agree. Avariel and Aquatics could have been handled just by adding on instead of whole new stats. Though I can see arguments for whole new stats based on the radical changes these two races underwent...a higher constiution for Avariels would make sense for a race that spent so much time flying while an increase in strength for Sea Elves from adapting to their underwater habitat.

-Weylin

Dennis da Ogre wrote:

mdt wrote:

1) The book is not solely for your pleasure. All of us are customers, and every customer has different desires/needs.

Just expressing my opinion as you did... it is likewise not solely for your pleasure.

To me, the difference being I didn't ask for things you want to be removed, I only asked for things I'd like to be added. Honestly, I'd happily pay $60 for a AGP that's as thick as the core book. And I'd be happy if I only ended up using half of it, more than I usually got with a WoTC splatbook. And I'd know that whatever was in there I didn't like, there'd be someone out there that wanted it.

mdt wrote:

Dennis da Ogre wrote:

mdt wrote:

1) The book is not solely for your pleasure. All of us are customers, and every customer has different desires/needs.

Just expressing my opinion as you did... it is likewise not solely for your pleasure.

To me, the difference being I didn't ask for things you want to be removed, I only asked for things I'd like to be added. Honestly, I'd happily pay $60 for a AGP that's as thick as the core book. And I'd be happy if I only ended up using half of it, more than I usually got with a WoTC splatbook. And I'd know that whatever was in there I didn't like, there'd be someone out there that wanted it.

He didn't ask that anything be 'removed' either. He asked that it not be added in the first place. And since they are doing the race companions that James mentioned, it isn't needed in the APG. It would be repetitive and waste valuable space.

B) Not all of us use Golarian. I don't do Golarian, and those race companions are all targeted at races in Golarian. I would like setting neutral information without having to pick up a dozen books that have 80% of the information needing to be altered. It would not be a waste of valuable space. Unless James also mentioned that the Race Companions would be Non-Golarian specific, which was not what I saw in his posts.

Will have to recheck by books. I recall Drow being markedly shorter than other elves with males averaging around 5'.

-Weylin

Weylin wrote:

Will have to recheck by books. I recall Drow being markedly shorter than other elves with males averaging around 5'.

-Weylin

You are correct sir, they use PHB ht/wt charts so are smaller then other elves

Never had a drow pc and it slipped my mind. Drow do however have one of the coolist gods in FR, shes the non evil on e:)

Never had a drow pc and it slipped my mind. Drow do however have one of the coolist gods in FR, shes the non evil on e:)

seekerofshadowlight wrote:

Never had a drow pc and it slipped my mind. Drow do however have one of the coolist gods in FR, shes the non evil on e:)

I always import her into my universe if Drow are present. :)

mdt wrote:

seekerofshadowlight wrote:

Never had a drow pc and it slipped my mind. Drow do however have one of the coolist gods in FR, shes the non evil on e:)

I always import her into my universe if Drow are present. :)

unfortunately, in 4th edition Realms she (Eilistraee) is now a dead god. Like many other things I like about that world.

MDT she is a most awesome goddess

Loved the whole story behind Eilistraee. I dont think it was a story they ever should have resolved, especially not how it was resolved.

Was more than a little annoyed when she got decapitated and they redeeemed some of the drow back into the Ilythiir they were before Lolth.

MDT she is a most awesome goddess

I do not know what madness you speak, weylin but never happened.

Loved the whole story behind Eilistraee. I dont think it was a story they ever should have resolved, especially not how it was resolved.

Was more than a little annoyed when she got decapitated and they redeeemed some of the drow back into the Ilythiir they were before Lolth.

seekerofshadowlight wrote:

MDT she is a most awesome goddess

The fact that she prefers to be naked, seemed to help. :)