Note... there'll be a few SRD monsters that will NEVER make it into a bestiary for various reasons (mostly because the staff at Paizo feels that not all SRD monsters are "winners" and there's better things to do with those pages), but that number is pretty small.

I'd also like to say I would prefer no one "lobby" for these SRD monster's inclusions. Meaning, I have no problem with some hate on various SRD mobs. I'm just curious so we can debate the finer points contributing to their hated existence.

James? Care to spill it? I offer immunity from prosecution.

there was a big thread on this about a year ago, where they asked which SRD monsters people have never seen used/fought against.. I'll see if I can find it when I get to work in the morning... I want to say either James or Erik started it.

Since I don't want to set up an expectation that the SRD monsters we choose to not put in any Pathfinder Bestiaries is up for voting... I'd rather not share the list. But poke around on the boards and I'm sure you'll find one of us spewing hate for the tojinada or the delver or a few others here and there.

I'd rather not share the list.

Anyone else got links to where the hate is spewed? I'll Google and see if I can find some. Maybe we can compile the list ourselves. ;-)

Tojanida and Delver were both frequently called out as examples of "what were they smoking ?" monsters.

Tojanida and Delver

Gorbacz wrote:

Tojanida and Delver

Personally, I immensely enjoy the idea that these weird critters exist somewhere in the multiverse. It's just hard for me to imagine why the players would fight them.

"Hated Monsters Revisited"!

Could be fun, and insulated from the bestiaries...

I'd be curious to see if Paizo could contextualize these poor critters into something useable!

"Hated Monsters Revisited"!

How about the darkmantle? Apparently a reimagining of another useless monster into something slightly less, but nevertheless still, completely useless.

How about the darkmantle? Apparently a reimagining of another useless monster into something slightly less, but nevertheless still, completely useless.

How about the darkmantle? Apparently a reimagining of another useless monster into something slightly less, but nevertheless still, completely useless.

RPG Superstar 2010 Contest Guidelines:

Explain in 200 words or less how you would make the tojanida not suck.

Flumph!

RPG Superstar 2010 Contest Guidelines:

Explain in 200 words or less how you would make the tojanida not suck.

James Jacobs wrote:

Note... there'll be a few SRD monsters that will NEVER make it into a bestiary for various reasons (mostly because the staff at Paizo feels that not all SRD monsters are "winners" and there's better things to do with those pages), but that number is pretty small.

Epic Meepo wrote:

RPG Superstar 2010 Contest Guidelines:

Explain in 200 words or less how you would make the tojanida not suck.

I think 90% of what people don't like is the picture.

One other thing that annoy me about it are the fact that it's got 3 distinct stat blocks for an easy, medium, and hard tojinada. This route felt somewhat lazy to me; rather than try to augment four elemental creature niches like they did with the toijanada, the xorn, the arrowhawk, and the salamander, I would have preferred to have actual different monsters. You'll note that the two of those we picked up for the Bestairy already, the xorn and the salamander, are back to having only one stat block.

Another thing that annoys me about the tojinada is that it simply doesn't bring anything NEW to the table. The game already had the giant octopus and giant squid (and their normal variants) as aquatic creatures that have grab attacks and ink cloud abilities. It would have been more interesting if the tojinada had some sort of attack mechanic unique to it and not something that poached from an existing monster of a similar CR niche.

And another thing is that it's a brand new monster that doesn't have any tradition or momentum behind it. The salamander has a history of myth behind it, while the xorn has 3 decades of history in the game. Now certainly the xorn when it first showed up in 1st edition was a new monster out of the blue as the tojanida was in 3rd edition, but the fact that the xorn survived 3 editions while other monsters made up out of the blue did not (such as the masher or the barkburr) tells me that there was SOMETHING that the xorn had going on that other monsters did not. And after seeing the tojinada in action for a decade, I don't think it's gained the traction that the xorn did in the same amount of time.

Frankly, the art (as strange as it is) is probably the fourth thing down the list that annoys me about the monster.

James Risner wrote:

James Jacobs wrote:

Note... there'll be a few SRD monsters that will NEVER make it into a bestiary for various reasons (mostly because the staff at Paizo feels that not all SRD monsters are "winners" and there's better things to do with those pages), but that number is pretty small.

Eh, I don't think I agree with this. I believe that if it's in the SRD it should be reprinted at some point. I can understand not getting those critters in the first, or even second bestiary, but I'm slightly disappointed to hear it won't happen at all. Oh well, I'm sure I'll see something shiny in the next couple of minutes that'll make me forget about it.

Ive mentioned this before. The tojanida is part of an elemental set in 3rd edition.
Xorns and Salamander have existed long before tojanidas....BUT if you check out those 3 plus the Arrowhawk you will notice the pattern.
All 4 races come in 3 different sizes and are the same challenge ratings.
Leaving Tojanida's out now just seems like hating on the elemental plane of water.

I still have yet to see the bestiary....but Im scared for the 3rd edition monsters that TO ME are now just as iconic as rust monsters and bulettes. Grey Renders, Gricks & Destrachans are just a few.

EDIT - Just read above that the 3 sizes and CR is a thing of the past.

Just because they won't show up in a Bestiary doesn't mean we won't do something with them... but at the same time, NO new edition of the game has preserved EVERY monster from the previous edition.

RPG Superstar 2010 Contest Guidelines:

Explain in 200 words or less how you would make the tojanida not suck.

"The tojanida is an intelligent omnivorous ambush predator similar to a giant snapping turtle given the habits a of a beaver. Much like a turtle, the beast has four flippers a short tail and a head with a very long neck (reach 10-20' depending on size and hit dice). Unlike a turtle however, it can rotate itself within the shell and a hole that once held a flipper or tail can easily be replaced with the head and the the creature can not be flanked). Typcially the tojanida never reveals its body leading some people to think they've been attacked by a large unknown species of eel if they survive or manage to decapitate it.

In the event that it is unable to kill something that it's attacked, the tojanida will typically flee after expelling a quantity of slit and mud it stores within its shell for just such a purpose. This acts and blocks stie as per Obscuring Mist cast by a 10th level sorceror. It also suffocates some water breathing creatures who's gills cannot handle the silt (treat as drowning.)

In the event that it cannot flee, the creature will pull itself entirely inside the shell, giving itself DR 20 against physical attacks which usually protects the creature sufficiently that non intelligent predators give up and go after easier prey. This tactic is usually only used to distract a predator from it's den much like some birds will pretend to be wounded to distract a fox from their nest.

As to their home, the tojanida maintains a symbitoic relationship with sponges and corals in the elemental plane of water by collecting debris and mud which then provide a surface for flora and small fauna to grow on. When not rearranging it's home or adding to it, the tojanaida can often be found burrowed in mud with only it's eyes showing waiting for food to pass by or tending to it's eggs in the central chamber of the den. Though encounters with adventurers are rare in the elemental plane of water, large tojanida that have made their way to the prime material plane, often incorportate the hulls of shipwrecks into their homes. This often leads to conflict during salvage operations as the tojanida use shiny objects in their den in much the same manner as civilized humanoids use mobiles above a crib."

(And yeah that picture is horrible. just make it a symetrical turtle and drop the claws.)

James Jacobs wrote:

Just because they won't show up in a Bestiary doesn't mean we won't do something with them... but at the same time, NO new edition of the game has preserved EVERY monster from the previous edition.

Very true, but no new edition of the game has given backwards compatibility before and part of that, for me at least, would be eventually getting all of the SRD converted. I understand were you're coming from, I guess I was just a little surprised to hear it. Not upset or mad, just surprised.

And 2nd edition had PLENTY of monsters that weren't updated in their first Monster Manual that were core. The roper, for example, had to wait for the second Monstrous Compendium to show up, while devils and demons had to wait several years before they showed up (albeit with the names "tanar'ri" and "baaetzu").

EDIT - Just read above that the 3 sizes and CR is a thing of the past.

Having just read the Delver's entry, with interest, for the first time, I've convinced that the roughly square-shaped monster that exudes hagfish-like acidic slime as it burrows through solid rock, presumably leaving its tunnels strewn with aforementioned acidic slime, is the progenitor for gelatinous cubes.

Actually, 2nd edition was very backwards compatible with 1st edition, to the extent that you could use accessories for either with almost no problem at all.

And 2nd edition had PLENTY of monsters that weren't updated in their first Monster Manual that were core. The roper, for example, had to wait for the second Monstrous Compendium to show up, while devils and demons had to wait several years before they showed up (albeit with the names "tanar'ri" and "baaetzu").

but for elementals the multiple sizes thing is still going strong.

hogarth wrote:

but for elementals the multiple sizes thing is still going strong.

As they SHOULD be, IMO.

Ah crap 340+ words.

"The tojanida is an intelligent omnivorous ambush predator similar to a giant snapping turtle given the habits a of a beaver. Much like a turtle, the beast has four flippers a short tail and a head with a very long neck (reach 10-20' depending on size and hit dice). Unlike a turtle however, it can rotate itself within the shell and a hole that once held a flipper or tail can easily be replaced with the head and the the creature can not be flanked). Typcially the tojanida never reveals its body leading some people to think they've been attacked by a large unknown species of eel if they survive or manage to decapitate it.

In the event that it is unable to kill something that it's attacked, the tojanida will typically flee after expelling a quantity of slit and mud it stores within its shell for just such a purpose. This acts and blocks stie as per Obscuring Mist cast by a 10th level sorceror. It also suffocates some water breathing creatures who's gills cannot handle the silt (treat as drowning.)

In the event that it cannot flee, the creature will pull itself entirely inside the shell, giving itself DR 20 against physical attacks which usually protects the creature sufficiently that non intelligent predators give up and go after easier prey. This tactic is usually only used to distract a predator from it's den much like some birds will pretend to be wounded to distract a fox from their nest.

As to their home, the tojanida maintains a symbitoic relationship with sponges and corals in the elemental plane of water by collecting debris and mud which then provide a surface for flora and small fauna to grow on. When not rearranging it's home or adding to it, the tojanaida can often be found burrowed in mud with only it's eyes showing waiting for food to pass by or tending to it's eggs in the central chamber of the den. Though encounters...

Aaron Bitman wrote:

hogarth wrote:

but for elementals the multiple sizes thing is still going strong.

As they SHOULD be, IMO.

Definitely. I don't need Elementoid Sparkflingers, Elementoid Emberstrikes and Elementoid Blazetitans; Medium, Large and Huge Fire Elementals will do just fine, thanks.

...

...isn't there?

I still think elementals are too humanoid in nature. They don't feel like "living (fire/water/wind/earth)" at all; they feel more like something a mortal wizard would shape a given elemental into.

If they needed another water creature, I would have preferred bringing back the Water Weird, or some sort of Grue, than the Tojanida anyway. Given the desperate attempts to get sonic attacks into the game (Yrthak, really?) making a Siren or similar water creature that produces a damaging sonic 'song' could be neat.

Wasn't the Invisible Stalker an air elemental entity, originally? If so, there's the four elements; Xorn, Salamander, Water Weird and Invisible Stalker.

Or you could use those Fiend Folio flying snakes that zap you with lightning. Volts, IIRC. I like the idea of a flying critter that builds up a static charge slithering through the air, and then zaps you with it, then flies away to build up another charge for X rounds, if the first zap didn't get you...

Wasn't the Invisible Stalker an air elemental entity, originally?

Or you could use those Fiend Folio flying snakes that zap you with lightning. Volts, IIRC. I like the idea of a flying critter that builds up a static charge slithering through the air, and then zaps you with it, then flies away to build up another charge for X rounds, if the first zap didn't get you...

I still think elementals are too humanoid in nature. They don't feel like "living (fire/water/wind/earth)" at all; they feel more like something a mortal wizard would shape a given elemental into.

AIR: A weird multilegged bird thing and a tornado type thing.
EARTH: A dog made of rocks and a man made of rocks.
FIRE: A dragon/snake made of fire and a bat made out of smoke.
WATER: A shark made of water and a wave with a distorted face.

So yeah, I'd agree that elementals aren't necessarily humanoid shaped. In that only 12.5% of those we illustrate in the Bestiary are humanoid shaped.

i think that's a lot cooler than the faceless dudes in the 3e MM, but if it were up to me a fire elemental's stats would be less like a creature and more like the stats for an actual fire. They'd be what you throw at players when mundane natural disasters stop being a serious threat.

An ice elemental is an avalanche that WANTS to kill you.

So yeah, I'd agree that elementals aren't necessarily humanoid shaped. In that only 12.5% of those we illustrate in the Bestiary are humanoid shaped.

But every time I look at the page of Earth Elemental with the Dog, it just freaks me out. A dog? Really? There is no love for this one.

But every time I look at the page of Earth Elemental with the Dog, it just freaks me out. A dog? Really? There is no love for this one.

An ice elemental is an avalanche that WANTS to kill you.

Or that, yea. Either way.

Aubrey the Malformed wrote:

How about the darkmantle? Apparently a reimagining of another useless monster into something slightly less, but nevertheless still, completely useless.

Darkmantles are in the Bestiary. We hardly think they're "useless" and have done some work already as a result in exploring them.

I love Darkmantles. The first game of D&D I ever ran with a group featured a Darkmantle encounter. There were two small characters in the group (a gnome witch and a vanara psion (note: vanaras were small in my CS)). There was a small tunnel too tight for the medium characters to fit through but the small characters would get through without problems. When the Vanara crawled through the Darkmantle dropped from the ceiling onto his head and began choking him. The gnome immediately started thwacking it with her broomstick, after a couple of rounds the Darkmantle finally let go and flapped away. The pair refused to check any small tunnels without backup from that point.

I <3 Darkmantles.

i think that's a lot cooler than the faceless dudes in the 3e MM, but if it were up to me a fire elemental's stats would be less like a creature and more like the stats for an actual fire. They'd be what you throw at players when mundane natural disasters stop being a serious threat.

An ice elemental is an avalanche that WANTS to kill you.

Hydro wrote:

i think that's a lot cooler than the faceless dudes in the 3e MM, but if it were up to me a fire elemental's stats would be less like a creature and more like the stats for an actual fire. They'd be what you throw at players when mundane natural disasters stop being a serious threat.

An ice elemental is an avalanche that WANTS to kill you.

Fire elementals are the one kind that would make sense as a Swarm to me. It doesn't stand off and punch you like the other elementals, it can just engulf and burn you alive...

Hmmm (puts on monster design hat).

Hmmm (puts on monster design hat).

I still think "Hated Monsters Revisited" has potential.

I have absolutely no love for these creatures, but I would be really curious to see a paizo-style reimagining of them. After all, they are a part of the game, even though nobody likes them.

Strange to say, but I think it might be a big seller. Everyone seems to have one critter they don't think should be on the &(*&-list.

I stand corrected on darkmantles. I guess the flying snail thing never appealed to me, but they can clearly be creepy in the right hands. Does anybody know of any modules (Paizo, WotC, Dungeon, Dragon) where they have been used because it seems to me they haven't received a massive amount of love from designers?

I stand corrected on darkmantles. I guess the flying snail thing never appealed to me, but they can clearly be creepy in the right hands. Does anybody know of any modules (Paizo, WotC, Dungeon, Dragon) where they have been used because it seems to me they haven't received a massive amount of love from designers?

I stand corrected on darkmantles. I guess the flying snail thing never appealed to me, but they can clearly be creepy in the right hands. Does anybody know of any modules (Paizo, WotC, Dungeon, Dragon) where they have been used because it seems to me they haven't received a massive amount of love from designers?

Aubrey the Malformed wrote:

I stand corrected on darkmantles. I guess the flying snail thing never appealed to me, but they can clearly be creepy in the right hands. Does anybody know of any modules (Paizo, WotC, Dungeon, Dragon) where they have been used because it seems to me they haven't received a massive amount of love from designers?

World's Largest Dungeon (we used to call "The $100 Dungeon") had several rooms near the beginning with Darkmantles in them. We were traumatized by the time we got out of that area.

Flumph!

Air elemental swarm would suffocate you.