I'm starting to wonder if the entire test wasn't one big trick and his actual calculated CR isn't something stupidly low like 10 or 11 (ala Mokmurian in Rise of the Runelords).

Well, if only one guy got the answer correct because he spied out all the clues, that wasn't me. If I was supposed to determine he MUST be a Ftr 3/Clr 11, I missed the boat. The stat block presented a 14 HD COnstruct with no class levels. Certainly I would have sent him back to author with some recommendations (does he have class levels? please name them. Also, change ring bonus to deflection bonus, and combine enhancement bonus and armor bonus into one armor bonus), but in terms of taking the Contrsuct at face vaule, I felt like a gave him a pretty good mechanical look.

And I would much rather face this guy than a Marut any day. Marut's have SR, great DR, and fh 10. They are about the same power level I think, but this guy gives you whacked out treasure and is much easier to kill.

Well, if only one guy got the answer correct because he spied out all the clues, that wasn't me. If I was supposed to determine he MUST be a Ftr 3/Clr 11, I missed the boat. The stat block presented a 14 HD COnstruct with no class levels. Certainly I would have sent him back to author with some recommendations (does he have class levels? please name them. Also, change ring bonus to deflection bonus, and combine enhancement bonus and armor bonus into one armor bonus), but in terms of taking the Contrsuct at face vaule, I felt like a gave him a pretty good mechanical look.

And I would much rather face this guy than a Marut any day. Marut's have SR, great DR, and fh 10. They are about the same power level I think, but this guy gives you whacked out treasure and is much easier to kill.

Also, this thing's SR is 2 higher than Marut lol

a lot

I wonder how one would evalutate his CR thinking of him as a fighter3/cleric11. I guess he would have a CR of 14 for class levels, +2 for abilities that enhance him in combat, +1 or 2 for amped ability scores beyond the elite array. That's 17-18. I'd still have to dock him 2 for being soft.

Meh. It's the weekend. Maybe I'll put the shabby NPCs from the DMG up against him and see how it goes. I am betting he gets smoked at CR 15.

Who wants his hammer when I am done? No one that plays here can have it! : }

Zurai wrote:

a lot

I haven't seen him since the night I turned in my answer, but I didn't remember SR for Makesh. I do know that DR 15/chaotic is a better defense than anything Makesh has.

The DR and the DC 31 2d6 round blindness are the big strengths of the marut over this thing, but IMO Makesh wins out pretty much everywhere else.

I did note in my response a lot of "inconsistencies" (as I put them) with his stat block, and I obviously didn't come up with the "correct" CR for him either as it's been stated only one person got it right and Epic Meepo gave the same CR 18 response I did. Also, I didn't dig deep enough to uncover a trail of bread crumbs leading to the CR; I assumed it wasn't a trick question.

Oh. Yeah. His SR doesn't go into CR because it comes from a spell. And the marut's SR is 2 higher. The marut will be able to attack instead of get whacked for a round while he casts the spell. This will pretty much even them out on damage for the combat.

I'm intrigued, and I worked a little on my sick day. So now I'm gonna pit 4 poorly designed 15th level template PCs up against our buddy here and see who dies. Gimme half an hour.

Oh. Yeah. His SR doesn't go into CR because it comes from a spell. And the marut's SR is 2 higher. The marut will be able to attack instead of get whacked for a round while he casts the spell. This will pretty much even them out on damage for the combat.

tejón wrote:

Tom is correct about the BAB. It's not a total-fiat custom monster, it's a Ftr 3/Clr 11, for a RAW base CR 14. Check out the saving throws and the feat count, that diagnosis is consistent across all three.

Actually, the feat count is only correct if he started as a human. A 14th level 3.5 character gets 5 feats, and there are two bonus feats in the first three levels of fighter; that only adds to 7, and he has 8. So, he must have started out as a human. I still can't figure out how he has a +22 Spellcraft check, though. Even without considering that it's a cross-class skill for Fighters, that's only 17 ranks and +3 from Intelligence.

(Also the DC of his spell saves should be 1 higher).

Edit: Oh, coming in late, but I'd have said CR 15, based on the stats. Based on class levels, template, and high stats it's probably CR 17 officially. But you could count the fighter levels as non-associated and drop it by 2.

I obviously didn't come up with the "correct" CR for him either as it's been stated only one person got it right and Epic Meepo gave the same CR 18 response I did.

However, I didn't get my email until the following day and may have been disqualified for failing the 24-hour window. If as a result of that LMP hadn't even read my submission, you could still be the star. ;)

Zurai wrote:

I obviously didn't come up with the "correct" CR for him either as it's been stated only one person got it right and Epic Meepo gave the same CR 18 response I did.

That was me, actually. Meepo came up with 17.

However, I didn't get my email until the following day and may have been disqualified for failing the 24-hour window. If as a result of that LMP hadn't even read my submission, you could still be the star. ;)

1. He's stronger than a Marut, estimation CR 17 (I had a little more analysis in there, but nothing even as in-depth of the comparison I did a few posts up in this thread).
2. He's got PC-level wealth, so CR+1.

That's it.

I still stand by CR 18, though I could live with 17. :p

Has anyone actually put together a group (you choose the CR) to face off against Makesh to see how tough he really is?

For what it's worth, 8 feats is right. 5 for 14th level, 2 from fighter, and Weapon Focus from War Domain.

Nah, I didn't follow the trail of bread crumbs.

I still stand by CR 18, though I could live with 17.

Depending on who initially set the CR, though, it could "correctly" be as low as 15. It all depends on how one values tactics, the disgusting combo which is necrogenesis + trembling strike + reach, abnormally high attributes and wealth, etc. After coming to the conclusion that this was a once-simple NPC with applied templates, I started browsing templates for how much they bumped CR's, because that would be the "correct" (RAW) way to value him, however practically inaccurate; but if the creator did a total-package monster comparison like yours and came to the "not scarier than a marut" conclusion (which IMO completely ignores the relative tactical depth of the two) 15 might be it.

Edit:

Has anyone actually put together a group (you choose the CR) to face off against Makesh to see how tough he really is?

That said, I'm curious of the outcome. That's the truly correct way to determine CR.

Edit:

LMPjr007 wrote:

Has anyone actually put together a group (you choose the CR) to face off against Makesh to see how tough he really is?

That's a lot of work, unless you're the sort who has a bunch of 15th-18th level character sheets sitting around, which I don't. And we're not getting paid yet. So not me. ;)

That said, I'm curious of the outcome. That's the truly correct way to determine CR.

Well...I was convinced that a group of four random, and medium-build characters could handle him at 15. And there was some good news and bad news.

We don't know what context Makesh is in, so I assumed an encounter distance of 100 feet, and no surprise. I used four characters from the DMG - scrubs by anyone's definition - who are statted and equipped (badly) at 15th level. That helped make the random, though I ruled out the paladin, as an extra advantage for Makesh. I went with human bard 15, human monk 15, hobgoblin fighter 15 and kobold sorcerer 15. I decided these guys, as underbuilt and underequipped as they were going to be, were fair at cooperating, and might even give up attacks to keep each other alive.

I gave Makesh a 20 initiative, and let him have symbol of pain, righteous might, divine favor, and even spell resistance. The PCs got only a 4 round guarantee for inspired greatness and whatever spells or effects are likely to last all day (mage armor, for example) Here's how it went down:

Round OneDING!
Makesh figures at a hundred feet away he;ll try to eliminate the weakling. He flame strikes the kobold and proves right. Someone built a kobold sorcerer with a mere 42 hit points. The sorcerer makes his save, but starts the fight down to 31 (including temp hp from greatness). Uncool. Makesh moves forward to get his symbol of pain closer.
Monk drinks potion of heroism, moves forward 20', passes Fort save.
Fighterdrinks potion of heroism, moves forward 20', passes Fort save. They don't have much out of the DMG, so I'm gonna use what they have.
Sorcererdrinks potion of invisibility and moves between and behind warriors, hoping he can't be targeted.
Bardmoves to correct range, stays away from symbol, and inspires courage

Round Two
Makeshseeing the two fighters coming on, activates his animated shield. Some might perform a trembling strike here, but I need AC (39!), I'm going to get opportunity attacks when they come into range, and I'm not interested in being a one-trick pony. I figure I should use the strike to prevent full attacks and to get hit points back. Finally, I have given Makesh enough advantages, we'll throw the PCs one bone. Also, I get a shot at paining the bard and invisible sorcerer, who both fail their saves. Now they are even worse at attacking or making skill checks.
Monkcharges the left side, makes his Balance check (because I am the kind of guy that forces Balance checks on charges[DC 10 in this case, for worked stone floor], and the PCs need more oportunities to fail). He gets whacked for 37! as an attack of opportunity, and just misses a hit by rolling a 14 (+13 base +2 charge +7 bonuses = 36). Well, he's only there to take a little off the top.
FighterCharges, makes his Balance roll, and learns that Makesh has Combat Reflexes. But Makesh rolls a 1 and misses. The fighter Power Attacks for his charge amount, rolls a 12 and hits for 21.
SorcererPops out of nowhere, moves to avoid his friends (easy enough, Makesh started this fight as a Huge creature),takes a total -8 to hit (friends in combat plus symbol of pain, and hits his mark with a disintegrate spell. Hey, it's on his character sheet. The kobold rolls a very average 106 points of damage and Makesh reduces that to 53 with a good Fort save. But now he is visible, and Makesh is unlikely to let that happen again.
BardGiving up on his songs, the bard moves behind the sorcerer and casts a lowly cure moderate, but gets 22 points out of it. Not bad!

Round Three
MakeshConsiders Trembling Strike, but can't let the sorcerer hit him again. If the sorcerer dies, things get better fast. So he suceeds on his Concentration check to cast blade barrier, snagging both the kobold and the monk. A smarter sorcerer would have taken the fighter's side of the combat, but oh well. The sorcerer blows his save and drops to 13 hit points. This had better be a good round for the good guys. The monk (sigh) rolls a one on his save and falls to 17. Great. Maybe I'm wrong, but I still have a full round of PCs to deal some damage.
MonkIn it for the long haul, the monk moves to flank and get quantity over quality. 4, 17, 20, 19. Two hits for a total of 21 damage (subpar on 4d6+10). Makesh is down to 75 hit points.
FighterKicks in the boots of speed again. Decides not to power attack and maximize the chance to hit. Rolls a 7, 16, 9, 14 for only two hits. At 2d10+24, deals a fair amount of damage (36).
SorcererSmelling blood, fires a lightning bolt through Makesh's head. Barely makes caster level check by rolling a 12. Makesh blows Reflex save on a 10 and takes 33 damage. Makesh is down to 6.
BardWants to end the fight now. Casts shout and beats SR with a 17. Only rolls 16 damage. The Construct makes his save, but expires without a chance to escape with word of recall. Because the bard can't aim the cone well enough from the ground, he gets the Fighter, who makes his save and also only takes 8 damage.

The combat is over.

Now, terrain, different rolls at different times, less tight players (but really...how much synergy did they have to have?), maybe different tactics by Makesh could have made a difference. But that's the point. This is a fight won by very subpar characters at level 15. They aren't equipped well, made decisions most players won't make, and didn't really wow anyone with their damage rolls. I gave Makesh a lot of consideration pre-combat, and didn't get into the bard's real strategy, which was hold-counterspell. If one segment of the fight went well, I would say it was SR checks. I couldn't find a way to rule without doing more research than I wanted, but I assumed the symbol of pain would include caster level checks in its penalties.

I believe had Makesh spent more time with Trembling Strike, disintegrate would have been the end of him. The blade barrier may or may not have happened, and the monk may have died on that decision, but Makesh still is onyl a little spooky for a party of well-equipped PCs who, somewhere in their party, might have developed even a single amulet of health to give to the monk or sorcerer.

That said, Makesh still has some potential, and almost got two party members. I think a 15 is accurate for him, especially if his numbers get corrected back down to reality.

Edit: Oh, coming in late, but I'd have said CR 15, based on the stats. Based on class levels, template, and high stats it's probably CR 17 officially. But you could count the fighter levels as non-associated and drop it by 2.

But, once again, he has 14d10 for hit points, no Con score, and +30 hp for being a Construct. While the author might have wanted some multiclass stuff out of him, he blew up the rules to do it, which a stats chief can't let happen. If he has class levels, he has 11 d8s and 3 d10s. Since he doesn not, anyhting in his stat block indicating he has class levels is in error. Either the saves and feats are wrong, or the hit dice (and essentially even type) are wrong. He can be molded to fit the mechanics that DMs expect, of course. But any assumption that he is a fighter 3/cleric 11 is ignoring the first two lines of his stat block.

I am growing to kind of like Makesh as a gate-guardian type of charcter. I might patch him up and put him in my Rokugam game.

Right, so I'm not going to actually run any simulation right now but I do want to suggest an alternate take on that fight based on the actual strategy actually provided in the actual description.

Round 1: Makesh notices that the PCs intend to fight with him. Word of Recall.

Six days later at 3am after the party has had a hard day, achaierai bomb from forty feet in the air.

...even in your head-on collision scenario, I would have opened round 2 with Trembling Strike. A solid chance to regain 40HP, prevent full-round attacks from the melee and prevent anyone from leaving the area without taking a lot of additional hits? Yes, please.

Edit: Oh, right, don't forget the 8 ghasts surrounding him at the beginning of the fight (because he's not going to show up to the real party without killing a few people to make ghasts first). Meaningful threat to the party? Nah. Interrupt charge lines? Hell yeah.

(That's the version of the fight where he's inexplicably on the ground.)

Oh, right, don't forget the 8 ghasts surrounding him at the beginning of the fight (because he's not going to show up to the real party without killing a few people to make ghasts first). Meaningful threat to the party? Nah. Interrupt charge lines? Hell yeah.

tejón wrote:

Oh, right, don't forget the 8 ghasts surrounding him at the beginning of the fight (because he's not going to show up to the real party without killing a few people to make ghasts first). Meaningful threat to the party? Nah. Interrupt charge lines? Hell yeah.

Interrupt charge lines? Screw that. Makesh keeps those eight ghasts around so he can trembling strike his own minions to regain 80 hit points. It's the same reason he'll want to carry around a Bag of Kittens(tm). ;P

In the offered alternative combat, it is true that several things could have been done differently. Although he couldn't have gotten more than 20 hit points out of a trembling strike in round 2, since only two would have been within range.

I think the most importnt thing about this simulation is that the PCs in any game are going to be much much tougher. Makesh has his own fresh rules. Do PCs make characters only out of the SRD? Give me a tripmaster fighter with improved wepaon focus and something a little better than a +3 sword, and we'll be a lot scarier than 'Human Fighter 15'.

I think the most importnt thing about this simulation is that the PCs in any game are going to be much much tougher. Makesh has his own fresh rules. Do PCs make characters only out of the SRD? Give me a tripmaster fighter with improved wepaon focus and something a little better than a +3 sword, and we'll be a lot scarier than 'Human Fighter 15'.

I went with the following breakdown:

CR 17

Steven T. Helt wrote:

I think the most importnt thing about this simulation is that the PCs in any game are going to be much much tougher. Makesh has his own fresh rules. Do PCs make characters only out of the SRD? Give me a tripmaster fighter with improved wepaon focus and something a little better than a +3 sword, and we'll be a lot scarier than 'Human Fighter 15'.

I think for a situation like this, you have to go with a baseline, and that would be the SRD for the player's opposing him.

I went with the following breakdown:

CR 17

+3.5 -- 14 Hit Die Contruct (MM p. 294)

+1 -- Large

+2 -- "Divine" Attribute Buy

+4 -- Special Abilities appropriate to its HD

+1 -- Equipped as Lvl 14 PC

+5.5 -- Non-Associated Lvls (assumed to be the source of the +30 HP, but should be +50 for Lvl 11 Cleric)

Now, I agree that with his weaknesses that he is seriously underpowered for this CR, but I could not see where I should have "docked" the creature for that.

First, it does no good to just use base line SRD characters to playtest him. First, that's what I did, and they didn't even have the equipment they are supposed to have, and the fight wasn't very strenuous for them. Hopefully they'd have a better game plan than 'frontal charge after we let him hop up on crack'.

Second, no PC this guy ever faces will only be baseline SRD. When Makesh sees a well-built samurai or malconvoker or war-wizard, or after he has to put up with just one or two spells from the Spell COmpendium, or some whacked out smite-heavy paladin with power attack and a greatsword..the number of real PCs out there who would be much more challenging at the same level is endless.

Third - you don't award the Construct a CR for every 4 HD. That's for every HD of advancement. There really isn't a formula for building a monster for the ground up. You have to have some sort of comparison. Some went with Marut as a starting point, I went with a Construct with no special abilities, we all more or less ended up in the same range. The 30 hp comes from the construct type. That's the sort of thing that is built into his CR, if you have something to compare it to. All constructs get bonus hp based on size.

Four - Equipment doesn't adjust your CR, although special equipment that makes a huge difference (say, the rod of seven parts may add to rate the challenge of the encounter. In general, if items or abilities significantly enhance his combat abvility, you give the monster a single +2 bonus to CR. He can't use all the actions available to him in one round, which puts him into a situation like my combat last night. He'd have maybe killed everybody if he could flame strike and charge in the same round.

What's great about a discussion like this is it offers everyone a chance to learn something. Experienced players can critique the monster, and the system opens up for folk with either less experience, or who never had time hone their 'black art of encounter design'. And likely, everyone from every level of experience as a DM (and you ungrateful players who don't have to think about this stuff : } ), learned or brushed up on something. Not only is it fun, but it's edifying and builds up the game.

You should all take your expanded skills and rush out to your local store to put together a fun, free encounter for new players. Build the brand, enjoy more writers and maybe lower book prices!

The assumption, I believe, is that he'll be pre-buffed. Spell resistance lasts 11 minutes for him, so plenty of time to cast it before combat. His tactics block does say he immediately word of recalls out of combat if he's caught with his metaphorical pants down.

How embarrassing!

Right, so I'm not going to actually run any simulation right now but I do want to suggest an alternate take on that fight based on the actual strategy actually provided in the actual description.

Round 1: Makesh notices that the PCs intend to fight with him. Word of Recall.

Six days later at 3am after the party has had a hard day, achaierai bomb from forty feet in the air.

...even in your head-on collision scenario, I would have opened round 2 with Trembling Strike. A solid chance to regain 40HP, prevent full-round attacks from the melee and prevent anyone from leaving the area without taking a lot of additional hits? Yes, please.

Edit: Oh, right, don't forget the 8 ghasts surrounding him at the beginning of the fight (because he's not going to show up to the real party without killing a few people to make ghasts first). Meaningful threat to the party? Nah. Interrupt charge lines? Hell yeah.

(That's the version of the fight where he's inexplicably on the ground.)

B) yeah, and the party could have scryd him after the fight and then teleported to his hidey hole and dimensional anchored him before he could word of recalled in response. Lets not contradict things with, "well the monster should have done x" If you want to run a combat like that, that's fine, but that scenario posted above is what makesh does, the tactics say he enters combat with the assumed buffs. He had the assumed buffs, fair fight. Because if you give him more, you have to assume the PCs get more preparation than he gave them as well, as he said better equipment and stronger tactics.

C) they beat him, but it sounds like he sucked down more than 1/4th of their resources, not by much, but enough that it makes me feel confident in my answer that he was a CR16, because after that combat to keep going on they'll want to heal etc, granted a scroll or two of heal and that means they burned less than 1/4th, but I think a CR 15-16 is exactly right for this guy, I'll post my own combat later using a party with two 15s and two 16s and we'll see how it plays out.

okay so beware a makesh critical, scary scary stuff. So I played him to his description to a T, I gave him average hit die HP + max first level +30 for a total of 111hp since everyone said he was built with class levels,, since that's the standard for NPCs in 3.5. I will say this, I gave him the buffs the description says he starts with. which was divine power, righteous might, and symbol of pain. Rolled initiative, the wizard/warlock/theurge starts off with a disintegrate but makesh makes his save. the theif/assasin type dim doored to the opposite side while the paladin warhorse charged with his axe both beat makesh on init, the dwarf paladin misses with his smite (rolled a 2) while makesh AoOs him for 40 damage and heals. Makesh goes and wants to not be flanked so he smashes the paladins horse with a crit, one hit kills the horse, gains back HP and moves out of the flank, dwarf makes his ride check to rapid dismount without damage, and hits with AoO for 13 damage (horribly built NPC out of the complete warrior the knight protector). The druid/holt warden casts call lightning storm. Oh by the way both paladin and rogue make their saves against symbol of pain. New round Makesh at 98 HP and no longer flanked, Theurge moves into symbol of pain range fails save and vitriolic blasts Makesh down to 76, rogue moves into flanking position, and uses an ability to give herself 50% miss chance, which saves her from the hammer. attacks and misses. dwarf charges Makesh hits and I roll big paladin is down to 25 hp. He smites and hits for 16 damage (can't power attack because of Makesh's high AC. Makesh seeing how low the paladin is and back up to 86-16 from pally to make him 70. Decides to finish off the dwarf with a full attack, first roll nat 20, confirm 18, makesh deals approx 70-80 damage, I gave up on adding it up after 50 since the dwarf was paste. then since he still has full attacks and is back up to 80 he decides to paste the rogue, but two bad rolls leaves the rogue with an AC of 33 at full health. Druids spell completes and takes 15 damage making him at 65, then she flame strikes for 63 damage makesh rolls 7. New round vitriolic blast from last round deals 2d6 acid damage Makesh dead.

Took a total of 4 spells, 3 class abilities (2 smite evils and one dimensional step), and one horribly built paladin. who could be brought back after combat that lasted 3 rounds, a better built meleer would have done better, but damn does Makesh have a frightening crit. And this was a party of two 15 and two 16. I was planning on having makesh do more spellcasting, but until that flame strike, he was doing just fine and thought he was in control (after all with more than 3/4 of his HP and a dead paladin he looked pretty good.) All in all I'd say the CR 15-16 is just right.

yeah..I imagine similar results from different combats. But a tightly built party of experienced gamers I think will own him pretty easily. A great example is a nonmelee cleric (or one hopped on dmage reduction) that casts shield other. Or suppose a good build for a hand to hand cleric casts righteous might also. Suddenly, Makesh has a near-equal (though no one in my game would ever have a weapon like that), who has three allies.

I just don't see him being that tough. I agree that 1/4 of the party's resources seems like a fair assessment after healing. Sort of. One mass cure moderate and things are looking much better, with no real loss of resources by anyone. But again, the focal point is I used some very bottom-rung characters, and they had fairly mediocre luck. Maybe okay luck, with the monk hitting twice out of 6 attempts,and no one failing a caster level check made tougher by the symbol of pain.

But a party built by four of us would easily handle Makesh. We'd wince when we took some damage. We'd have to blow a mass cure serious right away if anyone got critted. But we'd win and blow up his necro-nexus thingy.

Oh..and remember, I let him have his max hp and all of the favorable errors on his stat block. I raised his spell dcs and made every decision in his favor. And I let him keep his incorrect attack bonus, and incorrect damage dice for the maul. So last night a crit would ONLY have been 6d8+72+2d6 force. : }

A party of optimized characters is going to blow up anything in the monster manual unless it's wildly level-inappropriate or miss-CR'd (Dragons, Mokmurian).

okay so beware a makesh critical, scary scary stuff. So I played him to his description to a T, I gave him average hit die HP + max first level +30 for a total of 111hp since everyone said he was built with class levels,, since that's the standard for NPCs in 3.5. I will say this, I gave him the buffs the description says he starts with. which was divine power, righteous might, and symbol of pain.

Sounds like fun..I just have to find out who they are and where to find them.

Tomorrow. Cause it's late.

ANd I imagine the fight would be bad. You'd add a combatant that Makesh can cooperate with. And I really think that might be bad for the world in general.

Sounds like fun..I just have to find out who they are and where to find them.

Tomorrow. Cause it's late.

ANd I imagine the fight would be bad. You'd add a combatant that Makesh can cooperate with. And I really think that might be bad for the world in general.

I wonder if the fight would have ended the same if the other members of the Folding Circle were there. See another hint for those still interested.

...14? Seriously? That only accounts for his character levels. :(

...14? Seriously? That only accounts for his character levels. :(

tejón wrote:

...14? Seriously? That only accounts for his character levels. :(

Where did you get 14 from?

shalandar wrote:

tejón wrote:

...14? Seriously? That only accounts for his character levels. :(

Where did you get 14 from?

here

Being immune to mind-influencing effects, poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, disease, death effects, necromantic effects, critical hits, subdual damage, ability damage, energy drain, effects that require Fort saves, and death by massive damage, is not the same as just being a human.

I always thought the Folding Circle was a cadre of old crones with a penchant for neatly displayed laundry.

Zurai wrote:

shalandar wrote:

tejón wrote:

...14? Seriously? That only accounts for his character levels. :(

Where did you get 14 from?

here

I see it, but I don't think you can call something that has 11 levels of cleric and 3 levels of fighter AND construct traits still a CR 14.

Being immune to mind-influencing effects, poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, disease, death effects, necromantic effects, critical hits, subdual damage, ability damage, energy drain, effects that require Fort saves, and death by massive damage, is not the same as just being a human.

...14? Seriously? That only accounts for his character levels. :(

And because the 3.5 CR 'rules' are poorly written and implemented, there can be quite a bit of debate on that.

Well, I streuggle with the idea that he has 14 class levels, but I don't think 14 is out of the question. He dropped pretty quickly against the scrub 15th level characters, and they didn't even have a divine caster or a sneak atacl guy (don't hit me with 'Makesh is immune to sneak attack and crits' - we all know there are ways).

But - kitted with a crazy magic weapon, statted incorrectly, and using a 54-point buy to sky his two key ability scores, it does seem like the system would call for a 15 or 16. Certainly on class levels alone, he'd be a 14.

I do think the Construct type is basically a push. You get some immunities, but there are plenty of ways to affect you, and you have a crappy Fort save. SO maybe 14 by the numbers is a fair start. I stick by the consensus of 15. Not that Mr. Porter nor anyone else has to listen to me. : }

I think we appreciate the exercise and I know I'm looking forward to the announcement tomorrow. Good luck and congratulations to everyone who was a part of it!

Using the tools given in that edition of the game, Makesh is CR 14.

But how are the base creatures valued? How are those template values derived? I'm aware of no structured set of rules to handle this. It starts with trial and error and playtesting, and now that we've got many hundreds of prior examples, comparison.

Maybe I just missed something. I'll admit I never looked too hard, because CRs always seemed like fuzzy estimate to me anyway. Again, I'll accept any link or reference from a WotC source.

(PFRPG Bestiary apparently has done more work in this area, which I'm happy to hear and can't wait to see, but it's not relevant to a 3.5 discussion.)

Please give me a link or a page reference for these tools, because I have never encountered them.

But "fuzzy estimate" is more than right, it's a best-case scenario.

tejón wrote:

Please give me a link or a page reference for these tools, because I have never encountered them.

MM, somewhere near the back - it's not in the SRD. In or around the monster creation guidelines. (My MM is currently supporting my monitor.)

But "fuzzy estimate" is more than right, it's a best-case scenario.

Another issue is power creep. He might be a fiar 16 or even 17 against characters out of the SRD, but in a complete, backwards-compatible campaign, he can't do much better than 14-15. One only has to find ways to sneak attack him, turn their attack into a touch attack, etc.

First off thank you everyone who submitted CR levels for this test. It was a difficult and complex test that made you have to look at a lot of different things to get the correct CR. SO first off the correct CR for Makesh is 14.

While getting the CR was important what was more important it was why you go that number and how you went about getting that number. Lots of people gave one or two sentence answers that were not helpful to understand why they came up with the CR they give. Other just did not understand the math and the “art” of creating a CR. Before we announce the TWO WINNERS, I wanted to give honorable mention to 2 individuals that both gave very detailed answers and understood the process of what we at LPJ Design were looking for:

Robert J. Grady who said CR 16 but he also was the only person to notice that there was a web preview of Makesh (good Google-Fu) online already.

Steven Helt who started off with CR 15 and then after a very detailed analysis he said CR 16. Basically, he convinced himself of the CR 16 answer; while at the same time not thinking CR 16 was correct. Great effort.

Now with all the said the TWO WINNERS are:

Mark Spano with CR 15

Thomas Baumbach with CR 14

I will be contacting the winner later, with details of the upcoming projects and all the good “hidden” and “secret” stuff we can’t talk about. So congrats to the winner and for those who didn’t win better luck and try again next time!

PS: We are going to be announcing another contest, similar to this one, very, very soon so if you want to break into the RPG business as a RPG writer or game developer, keep your eyes open for a upcoming announcement.

Congratulations to Mark and Thomas. Good luck t you and can't wait for the next contest!

I will submit that I only threw out CR 16 to appease you if I stepped on your toes! : } My email pretty much said so. But that's really in jest, because this dialogue was fun.

Big hand to our winners!

All I can say is congratulations to the two winners, next time I'll make sure I don't rush an answer out the door late at night but go over every little detail with a fine toothed comb. So expect to be hearing from me again.

Is this still happening? I've received no response to my last email.

Is this still happening? I've received no response to my last email.

Tom Baumbach wrote:

Is this still happening? I've received no response to my last email.

Yes this is. Just in the middle of something and I will be sending out e-mails this weekend.

The stat block was sort of mysterious, but going by his spellcasting ability, domain, and feat count, I decided to treat him as Cle 11/Ft 3 with a unique template. Going the MM, "unique abilities" add +2 Cr, which is basically how I decided to treat construct immunities, unlimited ability to spawn undead, and a weapon attack that does force damage.

I don't think CR can be considered correct. Strictly by the rules, a normal humanoid NPC with his class features is CR 14 (13 in Pathfinder, but this was a 3.5 test). He is obviously much stronger than a normal NPC, with higher ability scores, special attacks, and many immunities. Based on that comparison, he would qualify at a minimum of CR 15 (14 in Pathfinder), if you didn't consider his abilities "significant." Keep in mind that the fiendish template alone would increase his CR by +1, and his special abilties are rather on the strong side.

However, it is pretty well known that NPCs create weird CRs, and their stats range a lot more than a "balanced" monster. Looking at him as a monster, any answer higher than CR 16 is incorrect because HD +2 is what the MM states is the practical limit for CR. In my view, either a strong CR 15 or a soft 16 is acceptable. His attacks are consistent with CR 13 but his damage is high and he does force damage. His AC is very high. His saves are very low, but he's immune to so many things it probably doesn't matter. Even staring at the CR 14 in the preview, I felt it was manifestly too low. I pegged him as a strong double threat caster and melee monster.

Even with his Wosdom score, he isn't much of a spellcaster, really. Just a basic buff cleric.