Just to add fuel to this fire, for people who include sieges in their campaign, or storming a castle, you might want to include a Polybolos, which is a Greek-made repeating ballista using a chain-drive, and in fact is one of the earliest known uses of a chain-drive anywhere in the world. Simply put, it's an emplacement weapon scale crossbow with a magazine of oversized bolts. It has two flat-link chains attached to a windlass at the end of the stock, and two people turning it will cause the weapon to rapidly fire, reload, and fire again until the magazine, holding dozens of bolts, is empty. It was written about by Philo of Byzantium, and was reportedly invented by Dionysus of Alexandria, who worked in the Arsenal of Rhodes.
Leonardo DaVinci also may have been working on a similar device, but I'm not sure about that.
http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/RepCatapult.htm
Have seen working models of those on specials about Philo, Dionysus and Heron. Amazing machines.
DaVinci redefined "great crossbow" with this:
http://www.redstoneprojects.com/trebuchetstore/davincicrossbow.html
As a standard action, make a single ranged attack. The target does not gain any armor, natural armor, or shield bonuses to its Armor Class. You do not gain the benefit of this feat if you move this round.
Vital Strike wrote:
When you use the attack action, you can make one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals additional damage. Roll the damage dice for the attack twice and add the results together, but do not multiply damage bonuses from Strength, weapon abilities (such as flaming), or precision-based damage (such as sneak attack). This bonus damage is not multiplied on a critical hit (although other damage bonuses are multiplied normally).
Oh my goooooood Vital Strike is so horribly written *melts*
Okay. Do we want to get into an argument about whether these two abilities work together, or can we just set that aside and I skip to the part where I point out that 24 damage at level 12 is peanuts?
I can go either way.
As pinpoint is a standard action and I am prettu sure you can move and hit someone with vital strike (i am yet to hear a DM banning this) and the designers made it as a skirmish feat by their admission its likely it works.
The damage stated is without any effort or focus or buffing and considering its an auto hit really I for one have seen plenty of situations where such an attack (ignoring armour and SR and saves) for gaurenteed damage would be well worth it as everyone else is doing nothing.
Its really there as a situationally powerful cheap secondary option for a melee build.
Neverming when your DM has a natural armour rorted templated buffed abomination and your party doesn't have enough dispels to get thru its rings of counterspell !
If vital strike is so horribly written, what would your version look like?
Assuming the intent is that it does not play nicely with other feats...
"As a standard action, make a single attack with a melee weapon, ranged weapon, unarmed attack, or natural attack. This attack gains extra damage equal to base weapon damage, if it hits. This bonus damage is not multiplied on a critical hit. For example, an attack with a longsword using Vital Strike would do an additional 1d8 damage."
insaneogeddon wrote:
As pinpoint is a standard action and I am prettu sure you can move and hit someone with vital strike (i am yet to hear a DM banning this) and the designers made it as a skirmish feat by their admission its likely it works.
The damage stated is without any effort or focus or buffing and considering its an auto hit really I for one have seen plenty of situations where such an attack (ignoring armour and SR and saves) for gaurenteed damage would be well worth it as everyone else is doing nothing.
Its really there as a situationally powerful cheap secondary option for a melee build.
It costs five feats. That isn't "cheap" by any traditional definition of the word, unless you didn't have anything at all else you wanted to do with those feats.
I thought about the crossbow-problem too and came up with this nice Item, which I used sucessfully ingame:
3D Model here:
http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/search?q=crossbow&styp=m
(1st picture)
The "Springlauncher" is a gnome masterwork weapon.
Once drawn back with a winch, springs in the interiour hold enough power for 50 shots
The crossbow can be loaded with 6bolts, 12bullets and 6shuriken dealing different types of damage. (p/b/s) as well as one splash wapon like thunderstones or alchemical fire at the same time.
Reloading a magazine requires a full round action.
It has 3 shot modes:
"Normal" 1w8 crit 19-20x2 range 80ft (bolts, bullets, or shuriken)
"tripple shot" 3w4 crit 20x2 range 20ft (but -2 on attack rolls and uses 3 bolts or bullets per shot)
"precision" 3w6 crit 18-20 x2 range 120ft (requires 4 rounds of preparation, only bolts)
Splash weapons are thrown with a range of 20 ft and -2 on the attack roll
The bayonet uses following stats: 1w6 crit 20x2 -2 on attack rolls
The whole crossbow weights 15 lb it is a simple weapon and should cost about 4300 GP
Lokie(Pathfinder Charter Superscriber; GameMastery Cards Subscriber)
That kind of "assault crossbow" sounds like something that would almost make a modern soldier happy.
However... it kinda kills the flavor of the game a little bit for me.
It might be a little hard to hit a Dragon though unless you immobilized it somehow. Even mounted to a cart its gotta be pretty hard to aim quickly.
Telekenesis? Or multiple Greater Floating Disks? Or a Gnomish swivel mount!
Lokie(Pathfinder Charter Superscriber; GameMastery Cards Subscriber)
Mirror, Mirror wrote:
Lokie wrote:
Yeah...
It might be a little hard to hit a Dragon though unless you immobilized it somehow. Even mounted to a cart its gotta be pretty hard to aim quickly.
Telekenesis? Or multiple Greater Floating Disks? Or a Gnomish swivel mount!
Heh... mounting the whole thing on a intricate gearing system would be cool. As the dragon is flying around you have a crew of characters frantically turning huge crank handles to spin and adjust the weapon until the gunner fires.
Lokie(Pathfinder Charter Superscriber; GameMastery Cards Subscriber)
ok, dual wielding hand crossbows. quick draw, tie them to you with a string. drop one as free action. reload one, then drop while drawing the other. reload. draw other one. yes no maybe?
Lokie wrote:
Multishot vs. Crossbow sniper...
Multishot gives you a free extra shot with full modifiers. (strength mod, weapon spec, weapon training, etc.)
VS...
Crossbow Sniper gives 1/2 dex mod as damage.
...no comparison. If it gave full Dex mod on damage, maybe you'd have something.
i disagree here. while multishot may give str mod, how much is an archer upping str? dex determines your to hit, and i'm not sure you can ever have too much to hit.
for a character that's dedicated to crossbow, crossbow sniper is very nice. you're going to be bumping dex to the exclusion of all else, and this gives you bonus damage without sacrificing any to hit. a fighter could get it at level 1, a rogue by level 3, and it's +2 damage to every bolt with an 18 dex. by level 16 you're easily at +5 damage. if your gm is gonna let you find any stat boosting books, +6 or +7 is in reach. not exactly earthshaking maybe, but no to hit penalty and you can still add deadly aim.
it's obviously better for rogues who aren't expected to front line, since it also extends your sneak attack range. combine it with deadeye shot (which should work with vital strike, btw), also from the phb2, and i think crossbows become the range weapon of choice for rogues (hooray for ranged flanking and sniping). thematically this just fits for me, as it leaves rogues preferring crossbows (easier to conceal both the weapon and the ammo, and easier to shoot from prone: see rogue crawl and stand up), rangers preferring bows, and fighters able to play for either team based on their build.
Lokie(Pathfinder Charter Superscriber; GameMastery Cards Subscriber)
angryscrub wrote:
ok, dual wielding hand crossbows. quick draw, tie them to you with a string. drop one as free action. reload one, then drop while drawing the other. reload. draw other one. yes no maybe?
Lokie wrote:
Multishot vs. Crossbow sniper...
Multishot gives you a free extra shot with full modifiers. (strength mod, weapon spec, weapon training, etc.)
VS...
Crossbow Sniper gives 1/2 dex mod as damage.
...no comparison. If it gave full Dex mod on damage, maybe you'd have something.
i disagree here. while multishot may give str mod, how much is an archer upping str? dex determines your to hit, and i'm not sure you can ever have too much to hit.
for a character that's dedicated to crossbow, crossbow sniper is very nice. you're going to be bumping dex to the exclusion of all else, and this gives you bonus damage without sacrificing any to hit. a fighter could get it at level 1, a rogue by level 3, and it's +2 damage to every bolt with an 18 dex. by level 16 you're easily at +5 damage. if your gm is gonna let you find any stat boosting books, +6 or +7 is in reach. not exactly earthshaking maybe, but no to hit penalty and you can still add deadly aim.
it's obviously better for rogues who aren't expected to front line, since it also extends your sneak attack range. combine it with deadeye shot (which should work with vital strike, btw), also from the phb2, and i think crossbows become the range weapon of choice for rogues (hooray for ranged flanking and sniping). thematically this just fits for me, as it leaves rogues preferring crossbows (easier to conceal both the weapon and the ammo, and easier to shoot from prone: see rogue crawl and stand up), rangers preferring bows, and fighters able to play for either team based on their build.
I did not say it was not useful. However, the two feats do not measure up damage wise. Even if you are maxing out your DEX it normally does not climb above a 28-30 for the majority of the game which only equals 4 to 5 extra points of damage. Multishot gives you a full extra shot for free on every full attack which includes FULL strength modifier, and any other damage bonuses you might get on TOP of that. (Weapon Specialization, Weapon Training, etc...)
I did not say it was not useful. However, the two feats do not measure up damage wise. Even if you are maxing out your DEX it normally does not climb above a 28-30 for the majority of the game which only equals 4 to 5 extra...
hmmm, i assume we're actually talking about manyshot here?
and how are you getting all this str bonus? 15 point buy, i can get an 18 dex at first level by dropping int and cha to 9 each. what is the bow guy doing? if he's not also taking 18 dex he's sacrificing to hit. if he does take 18 dex, he's got nothing left for a strength bonus without lowering even more scores.
a level one fighter can take weapon focus and crossbow sniper. that's +2 damage. to equal that as a bowman you could take weapon focus and deadly aim, but now you're down 1 to hit. alternatively you could drop int and cha down to 7 each and buy your way up to a 14 str, and find some way to afford a +2 str bow at first level. and be semiretarded.
by the time manyshot comes up at 6th level, the bowman can probably afford some str enhancing item, but the crossbowman can get a dex enhancing one, and up both his to hit and damage.
the bowman does have the feat advantage as he only requires manyshot, while the crossbowman requires crossbow sniper and rapid reload. i'm assuming that otherwise they'll be taking exactly the same feats. but my point is it's hardly a huge advantage for the bowman, if there's any advantage at all.
i could see that the higher the point buy helps the bowman out, but in that case i imagine the crossbowman will invest in wisdom to help out will saves and perception.
Manyshot multiplies all damage increases, including Weapon Training, Weapon Specialization, extra damage from magic weapons, other class abilities, buffs, etc. You're going to have at least +4 from that at sixth level.
If vital strike is so horribly written, what would your version look like?
Assuming the intent is that it does not play nicely with other feats...
"As a standard action, make a single attack with a melee weapon, ranged weapon, unarmed attack, or natural attack. This attack gains extra damage equal to base weapon damage, if it hits. This bonus damage is not multiplied on a critical hit. For example, an attack with a longsword using Vital Strike would do an additional 1d8 damage."
insaneogeddon wrote:
As pinpoint is a standard action and I am prettu sure you can move and hit someone with vital strike (i am yet to hear a DM banning this) and the designers made it as a skirmish feat by their admission its likely it works.
The damage stated is without any effort or focus or buffing and considering its an auto hit really I for one have seen plenty of situations where such an attack (ignoring armour and SR and saves) for gaurenteed damage would be well worth it as everyone else is doing nothing.
Its really there as a situationally powerful cheap secondary option for a melee build.
It costs five feats. That isn't "cheap" by any traditional definition of the word, unless you didn't have anything at all else you wanted to do with those feats.
For a ranger its cheap and you get it early so you get to hit above your weight range. For others... not so. But why play to a strength another class out classes you at?
I know why but I tend to avoid, and suggest against, charaters where character undermines mechanics!
Manyshot multiplies all damage increases, including Weapon Training, Weapon Specialization, extra damage from magic weapons, other class abilities, buffs, etc. You're going to have at least +4 from that at sixth level.
Mmkay, brass tacks time. 2 fighters, 15 point buy. str 10, dex 18, con 10, int 9, wis 10, cha 9.
when not full attacking, both exactly the same. when full attacking, bowman's first arrow does double damage if it hits. definitely advantage bowman.
level 7 is interesting. crossbowman can now take weapon specialization. based on zurai's build in another thread, iron will or far shot is probably reasonable for the bowman here. so now crossbowman is 1d8+9 damage on every arrow. still advantage bowman in a full attack, but crossbowman isn't doing too bad, and in a single attack is better. jump to level 16, both more or less following the zurai build, and we see both characters with a 22 dex, and to hit +22(+16 bab, +6 dex, +3 weapon training, +2 weapon focus, -5 deadly aim).
still seems like a big advantage for the bowman during a full attack, even considering crossbowman will crit twice as often. however, when you bring magic items into it, things change a bit. a belt of physical might +6 is 90000gp. a belt of dexterity +6 is 36000 gp, and does almost as much for the crossbowman (+3 to hit, +1.5 damage). how free is the gm with magic items? is the mage gonna graciously agree to craft wondrous items for you? or maybe you'll have to invest a couple of feats into master craftsman to get exactly what you want. either way it's going to cost, but it's going to cost a crossbowman less (as an aside, i dunno if things have changed in 3.pf, but it used to be that weaponsmithing was for bolts, crossbows, and arrowheads. bowyers couldn't even make their own ammo).
in a run and gun type game where you're stuck with what you can find or make and you rarely have time to stand around making full attacks, i think crossbow sniper makes crossbows extremely viable, and probably even desirable, especially if you throw in some occasional two weapon fighting action with preloaded crossbows. in a game where you can go to a shop and customize your magical inventory to exactly your liking, and enemies stand around waiting for you to shoot them in the face with full attacks, manyshot does indeed give the bowman a nice damage boost, but at the cost of a much higher investment in strength boosting items.
notice in zurai's build, fighterman has a +7 to damage from str. that same build as a crossbow sniper would have a +6 damage from dex without investing in any strength boosting items, easily getting back 150000gp to invest in other things, like tricking out your armor, for instance.
hmmm. my only question now is if dual wielding crossbows works in conjunction with sniping. if it does...
Manyshot multiplies all damage increases, including Weapon Training, Weapon Specialization, extra damage from magic weapons, other class abilities, buffs, etc. You're going to have at least +4 from that at sixth level.
Mmkay, brass tacks time. 2 fighters, 15 point buy. str 10, dex 18, con 10, int 9, wis 10, cha 9.
math
level 7 is interesting. crossbowman can now take weapon specialization. based on zurai's build in another thread, iron will or far shot is probably reasonable for the bowman here.
No, both of them want Iron Will, Far Shot, or Weapon Specialization equally. Weapon Specialization is not crossbow specific. Then you go on to say, "Well, I know there are rules for wealth by level, but what if you don't have wealth by level?" The answer is that the crossbow is still inferior.
The bow is going to be at least equal all of the time, and better much of the time.
No, both of them want Iron Will, Far Shot, or Weapon Specialization equally. Weapon Specialization is not crossbow specific. Then you go on to say, "Well, I know there are rules for wealth by level, but what if you don't have wealth by level?" The answer is that the crossbow is still inferior.
The bow is going to be at least equal all of the time, and better much of the time.
umm, that is not what i said. wealth by level is not the same as getting whatever magic items you want by level. if you can't show that a concept works mechanically without depending on a particular set of magic items, you either need to build the character with the proper item crafting feats or go home.
and i did state that the crossbowman would have basically the same build as zurai's bowman, putting him roughly one level behind on feat selection, but not necessarily damage or combat effectiveness.
all the math you hand waved away showed two things. first, that crossbow sniper feat allows a crossbowman to be better when not full attacking. second, by bringing magic item customization into it, the crossbow sniper feat saves so much money on not investing in str enhancing books and belts, you can spend it on other things to really enable some different character concepts.
for instance, a level 10 halfling who throws everything into dex and stealth could easily have a +33 hide modifier without magic. +13 to stealth after a snipe attempt, and a -5 to the snipee's perception check at 50 feet away. since crossbow sniper allows you to ditch str and still get a damage bonus, you can invest in say, the improved shadow armor quality. now you're effectively a +33 stealth after the snipe attempt, without sacrificing damage vs a bow user. not too shabby, and difficult to afford with a bow without sacrificing to hit or damage.
without crossbow sniper, crossbow basically has no advantage under any circumstances vs the bow. with it, crossbow is at least viable, and in certain campaigns could be the superior choice.
umm, that is not what i said. wealth by level is not the same as getting whatever magic items you want by level. if you can't show that a concept works mechanically without depending on a particular set of magic items, you either need to build the character with the proper item crafting feats or go home.
and i did state that the crossbowman would have basically the same build as zurai's bowman, putting him roughly one level behind on feat selection, but not necessarily damage or combat effectiveness.
all the math you hand waved away showed two things. first, that crossbow sniper feat allows a crossbowman to be better when not full attacking. second, by bringing magic item customization into it, the crossbow sniper feat saves so much money on not investing in str enhancing books and belts, you can spend it on other things to really enable some different character concepts.
I didn't handwave the math, I just didn't requote it.
Build characters that illustrate this, then. Not half-formed math, not what-ifs involving maybe not getting staple magic items, but fully-formed, complete characters that illustrate what you're aiming at. I know it's tedious but most mistakes come from only doing half the math.
I didn't handwave the math, I just didn't requote it.
Build characters that illustrate this, then. Not half-formed math, not what-ifs involving maybe not getting staple magic items, but fully-formed, complete characters that illustrate what you're aiming at. I know it's tedious but most mistakes come from only doing half the math.
ummm, really? i did do that, and all the math too. allow me to quote what i wrote like 4 posts back on this same page:
angryscrub wrote:
2 fighters, 15 point buy. str 10, dex 18, con 10, int 9, wis 10, cha 9
when not full attacking, both exactly the same. when full attacking, bowman's first arrow does double damage if it hits. definitely advantage bowman.
level 7 is interesting. crossbowman can now take weapon specialization. based on zurai's build in another thread, iron will or far shot is probably reasonable for the bowman here. so now crossbowman is 1d8+9 damage on every arrow. still advantage bowman in a full attack, but crossbowman isn't doing too bad, and in a single attack is better. jump to level 16, both more or less following the zurai build, and we see both characters with a 22 dex, and to hit +22(+16 bab, +6 dex, +3 weapon training, +2 weapon focus, -5 deadly aim).
i admit, i didn't specifically state they were both maxing out perception and putting every ability point into dex, but i figured for a range attack build that was pretty obvious. but right there, you see, the crossbowman is up on damage for a single attack, and the only feats and class abilities they'll get to increase to hit or damage from here on out they both get equally.
but you want magic items? fine. they both get the following at level 7:
WBL=23500gp
belt of incredible dex +4 16000gp
2 crossbow or bow +1 5000gp
rapier +1 2500gp
now we have them each with the same to hit with their primary weapons(+13), and each with a 23 dex because of the belt. damage is as follows:
see? on a single attack crossbow sniper does more. if you are moving and shooting, advantage crossbow (but only with crossbow sniper feat).
let's jump to level 16. though the order could be slightly different, both characters are taking the same feats from zurai's build. the only that matter here though are greater weapon focus and spec, which they definitely both take.
WBL = 315000gp
manual of quickness in action +5 137500gp
belt of incredible dexterity +6 36000gp
2 +5 crossbows or bows 100000gp
rapier +4 32000
now we have both characters with a 33 dex, same to hit, and damage as follows.
i didn't bother to choose a race, but if it was a race with a dex bonus, that's an additional +1 damage at level 16 for the crossbow sniper. +5 or +6 damage isn't a huge difference, true, but it is measurably better any time you can't full attack. and note too that the chance to crit is better with a crossbow. depending on the type of campaign, this may or may not make much of a difference. but there are plenty of times you don't have a chance to full attack.
Just a short rules question folks: i searched the boards for it and skimmed through this thread but could not find anything - kann Manyshot be used with a repeater crossbow if the chaarcter has crossbow mastery?
I would houserule that you cannot get the sniper bonus when dual wielding crossbows, because sniping is taking a single, prepared, carefully aimed shot. That's the antithesis of shooting with an unbraced, unbalanced (since you're only gripping it with one hand) bolt from the hip, as it were.
I would houserule that you cannot get the sniper bonus when dual wielding crossbows, because sniping is taking a single, prepared, carefully aimed shot. That's the antithesis of shooting with an unbraced, unbalanced (since you're only gripping it with one hand) bolt from the hip, as it were.
I guess i am talking about one repeater crossbow only. Not able to fire two bolts at once, hm?
I'd like to point out that the sizes for crossbows varied quite a bit.
First, you have your hand crossbows, which can be yanked back by fingers.
Light crossbows can be yanked back by gauntleted hands, although most people would use a ring or hook.
Heavy crossbows were done by stirrup. You hooked the string onto a belt hook, stuck your foot in the stirrup, and just extended your leg to cock it. The Genoan crossbowman of the middle ages were famous for the technique.
Siege Crossbows required windup cutlasses. They also generally had to have a firing pole, being too heavy to lift and aim effectively.
Ballista, of course, are siege engines and shoot the equivalent of javelins.
==
A strength bonus for crossbows has an interesting effect. Namely, what do you do about crossbows fo speed (which automatically cock and load themselves), and what do you do about burly quiverbearers with 18 Str and 10Dex loading a Str crossbow and handing it to McSniper with 10 Str and 18 Dex to shoot? All the benefits of the Str dmg, none of the penalties. I think that's why they originally shyed away from Str bonuses on xbows, although mechanically they make perfect sense.
I really don't see a huge problem with that Aerlynth, needing 2 men to do the work of one archer. I'm sure they are more effective than an average lone archer at low levels, but I highly doubt that the two of them are as effective as two archers.
I would houserule that you cannot get the sniper bonus when dual wielding crossbows, because sniping is taking a single, prepared, carefully aimed shot. That's the antithesis of shooting with an unbraced, unbalanced (since you're only gripping it with one hand) bolt from the hip, as it were.
I guess i am talking about one repeater crossbow only. Not able to fire two bolts at once, hm?
Unless it has two strings, and two bolt channels - there are double crossbows out there - I'd say no. Here's the thing: If one of your hands is turning the crank, or working the slide, or however the repeater's action works, and the other hand pulling the trigger, you're not taking a carefully aimed shot with both hands bracing the weapon for stability.
Lokie(Pathfinder Charter Superscriber; GameMastery Cards Subscriber)
The double crossbows are the only ones able to fire two bolts as one attack. You have both the 3.5 wotc version and the double crossbow from the PFCS version to choose from.
I'm not going to add a lot here other than to say that the XBow seriously needs an 'official' overhaul.
Bows shockingly outshine Xbows well beyond reasonableness for a range of reasons already illustrated.
Back in AD&D the Xbow was GREAT against armoured targets, but the damage was pretty ordinary, however when this was all dropped in 2ED the damage tables stayed the same but the Xbow wasn't 'compensated' for the major nerf and has been the ultra poor second cousin for about the last 2 decades.
Please Magic Pathfinder men, fix this discrepancy! :)
BTW, angryscrub? You are right and I am retarded. I did gloss the math more than I thought; I completely missed that you were talking about Crossbow Sniper. Please accept my apology.
BTW, angryscrub? You are right and I am retarded. I did gloss the math more than I thought; I completely missed that you were talking about Crossbow Sniper. Please accept my apology.
no worries sir. i'm hardly going to let anything that happens in the paizo forums get me too upset. heh.
besides, i think it boils down to us both agreeing that in pf core, the crossbow needs some help.
Lokie(Pathfinder Charter Superscriber; GameMastery Cards Subscriber)
*Blows away a cloud of dust*
Soo... bring this thread back to life to post some results from my playtest of the house rule I was contemplating about the crossbow.
I've "playtested" the new houserule for crossbow damage as follows...
Hand Crossbow 1d3+1
Light Crossbow damage 1d6+2
Heavy Crossbow damage 1d6+4
... my players seem to like the change. The slight bump up in damage is noticeable, but not over-powered. Using the house-rule, the crossbow now has a bit more "punch" that makes choosing between a crossbow and longbow an actual choice and not a forgone conclusion in the bows favor.
This is an ongoing "playtest" in my campaign. Currently the players are 2nd level. We'll see how the house-rule holds up.
ah, i'd forgotten about this thread. i've actually changed my mind a bit on the crossbow, at least for fighters. i put up a build HERE that i think actually gives a valid reason to choose crossbow in core, if you're playing to high levels.
on a full attack, a crit focused crossbow fighter is practically guaranteed to successfully crit, and forcing something to get staggered can be really nasty.
of course, you're talking level 13 before this starts to come into play, but being able to say, if i can see you, i can stagger you, is pretty powerful.
Lokie(Pathfinder Charter Superscriber; GameMastery Cards Subscriber)
angryscrub wrote:
ah, i'd forgotten about this thread. i've actually changed my mind a bit on the crossbow, at least for fighters. i put up a build HERE that i think actually gives a valid reason to choose crossbow in core, if you're playing to high levels.
on a full attack, a crit focused crossbow fighter is practically guaranteed to successfully crit, and forcing something to get staggered can be really nasty.
of course, you're talking level 13 before this starts to come into play, but being able to say, if i can see you, i can stagger you, is pretty powerful.
The thread actually made its way into the archives over the holiday season. Since I've start running my games again and actually play-tested the house rule I'd been considering, I figured it was time to dust it off and make a report.
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