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Which would be better, considering mostly investment vs reward and pure effectiveness? Does the higher threat range of the kukri really compensate for the higher dammage of the Sawtooth Blade? How does the missing feat for the Sawtooth Blade EWP factor in, for a fighter?
I am under the impression that the Sawtooth will be much more effective at lower levels, and the kukri might be a strong contender around level 14-15, when critical feats really kick in.
Advice/opinion/math?
While I can't help you with the math, my opinion is that the sawtooth sabre will be better at lower levels. You do not need EWP to weild it, you just need it to use as a light weapon. Without the feat, it's a longsword for you.
It also looks cooler and more intimidating!
Twin Sawtooth Sabre Fighter Feats
Lv1: EWP(Sawtooth Sabre).
Fighter Bonus Feat Lv1: Two-Weapon Fighting
Fighter Bonus Feat Lv2: Weapon Finesse
Lv3: Weapon Focus(Sawtooth Sabre)
Twin Kukri Fighter
Lv1: Weapon Focus(Kukri)
Fighter Bonus Feat Lv1: Two-Weapon Fighting
Fighter Bonus Feat Lv2: Weapon Finesse
Lv3: Dodge
Just examples of both at 3rd level.
Also of note for the Saw Toothed Sabre is the special ones mentioned in the adventure path where they first appear. The ability to add a wand that then activates upon a hit increases their damage potential and versatility a lot. Not sure how one would go about disseminating such information though...*ponders*.
Also of note for the Saw Toothed Sabre is the special ones mentioned in the adventure path where they first appear. The ability to add a wand that then activates upon a hit increases their damage potential and versatility a lot. Not sure how one would go about disseminating such information though...*ponders*.
Huh, I missed that, which AP is it in?
The higher threat effectively grants you +5% to damage per point of threat range. So its,asuming Doble Slice and a STR of 14 for simplification:
At low levels (4):
(1d4+2STR)*115%= 4.5 + 4.5*.15 = 5.175
vs
(1d8+2STR)*110%= 6.5 + 6.5*.10 = 7.15
The Sawtooth Wins by about 40% extra damage per hit
At High Levels(13):
(1d4+4STR+4Specialization+3Groups+3Enh)*130%(Imp Critical) = 16.5 + 16.5*.30 = 21.45
vs
(1d8+4STR+4Specialization+3Groups+3Enh)*120%(Imp Critical) = 18.5 + 18.5*.20 = 22.7
The Sawtooth still wins, but by only about 5% extra damage
At Level 20:
(1d4+5STR+4Specialization+4Groups+5Enh)*160%(Capstone) = 20.5 + 20.5*.60 = 32.8
vs
(1d8+5STR+4Specialization+4Groups+5Enh)*160%(Capstone) = 22.5 + 22.5*.40 = 31.5
The Kukri wins by about 4%
As you can see the early advantage of wielding Sawtoths is offset as you level. The extra feat you take could be used for earlier completitions of feat chains, like Penetrating Strike or Weapon Specialization, or adding verstility, like taking quick draw and Deadly Aim for ranged capability. Also, these analisys doesn't accounts for damage buffs, like Good Hope or Inspire Courage, that will push things toward the Kukris.
From a mechanical point of view, the Kukris are a better option, not only the eventual hlgher damage output, its becasue the cost of oportunity.
Humbly,
Yawar
Also of note for the Saw Toothed Sabre is the special ones mentioned in the adventure path where they first appear. The ability to add a wand that then activates upon a hit increases their damage potential and versatility a lot. Not sure how one would go about disseminating such information though...*ponders*.
I'm running this and I don't recall seeing that at all.
Curse of the Crimson Throne AP, it's the weapon of the Red Mantis Assassins.I'm running this and I don't recall seeing that at all.
Sawtooth sabres are detailed in the hardcover Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting; before this, they were detailed in the Curse of the Crimson Throne Player's Guide. The Red Mantis assassins all use them... in fact, using 2 of them TWF style is their thing.
They're basically the "bastard sword" version of a longsword; a 1H weapon that deals 1d8 damage and has a threat range of 19–20 but that can be used as a light weapon if you have the Exotic Weapon Feat.
Sawtooth sabres are detailed in the hardcover Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting; before this, they were detailed in the Curse of the Crimson Throne Player's Guide. The Red Mantis assassins all use them... in fact, using 2 of them TWF style is their thing.Curse of the Crimson Throne AP, it's the weapon of the Red Mantis Assassins.I'm running this and I don't recall seeing that at all.
Oops, quoted the wrong post. I'll correct it above.
I don't recall seeing the wand thing.
Sawtooth sabres are detailed in the hardcover Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting; before this, they were detailed in the Curse of the Crimson Throne Player's Guide. The Red Mantis assassins all use them... in fact, using 2 of them TWF style is their thing.Curse of the Crimson Throne AP, it's the weapon of the Red Mantis Assassins.I'm running this and I don't recall seeing that at all.Oops, quoted the wrong post. I'll correct it above.
I don't recall seeing the wand thing.
That's what I had missed also.
Ive just had a quick flick through crimson throne and I couldnt see the wand thing with saw-toothed scim. But I would go with the saw-tooths just for the looks I very rarely go for stuff on maths/mechanics and they look evil :)
Yeah, I'll probably go with them for about the same reason. Can't stand the look of Kukris, with the curve on the wrong side and all. Always tough this weapon looked silly. That, and I hate D4s, they just don't roll nicely in your hands.
So I was torn between Short Swords and Kukris, because of the wickedness of 18-20/x2 crits, and the classical look and feel of the short sword (and of the 6 sided die!) then found the Sawtooth Blade in the Campaign Setting. Ah, to have a d6 dmg / 18-20/x2 crit light-weapon! And one without an inside curve! *sigh*
*Open therorical homebrew parenthesis*
Or maybe it is possible. How about this?
Wakizashi / 20 gp / 1d4 Dmg(S) - 1d6 Dmg(M) / 18-20/x2 / Slashing
*One-handed martial weapon, but treated as light weapon for two-weapon fighting rules if you have the EWP: Wakizashi.
Kind of a step between the two, but with a sexy, stream-lined look. What do you guys think? Decent? Too powerful? Underwhelming? Could change the name and look to better fit the flavor of Golarion, as long as I'm staying away from that dreadful inward curve look.
I'm currently playing a TWF rogue and I've been using Shortsword instead of Kukris mainly because of the d4's and the look/style. The fact that I'm trying to find a deity to match my persona (true neutral, but definitly assassin-ish) I came across the Achaekek. And along with him I found the Read Mantis Assassins and their infamous Sawtooth Sabres. Just awesome!
It's definitly something I'll have to trade up my shortswords for just on looks alone. The fact that I can use it with Weapon Finesse (if I take EWP, which I will) and have 18-20x2 Crit...enought said, I'm sold.
Also, it's strange because my character is carrying around this vial that has the makings for the Red Mantis poison (also called Vorel's Phage) and it might have some connections later on with the Assassin guild.
At high levels, when you are doing large amounts of fixed damage, the extra 5% (or 10%) damage from the extra criticals makes kukris superior.
The other advantage of the kukris (which only comes into play at mid to high levels) are the critical feats. Take
Improved Critical (Kukri)
Critical Focus
Critical Mastery
TWF, ITWF, GTWF
Any 2 critical feats
and at 14th level, you have 6 attacks (7 if hasted), each of which has a 30% chance of threatening a critical. If you confirm (and you have +4 on the confirmation roll), your target needs to make two fortitude saves to avoid a pair of fairly serious conditions. You can usually expect 1.8 critical threats per full attack (slightly less if you miss with a 15 on your third iterative).
That is only 8 feats, which a fighter would have by level 7, so by 14th level, you have an additional 7 feats for things like Weapon Focus/Specialization, Iron Will, Step Up and any thing else you want.
Kukri all the way.
Well, since I own one from Kukri House (Same company that makes them for the British Gurkas, and the Singaporean Police...yes, there are a division of them that carry Kukris), I am a little Biased. I think that the STS looks a bit silly. For the poster above who expressed the opinion that the curve was on the wrong side, you have obviously never seen one hacking through things. Better than a machete in the woods, they strip limbs from trees better than axes as well (Although an axe is a much better chopping implement against 'standing' wood, firewood, etc...).
The Nepalese behead oxen with them, for Thor's Sake... Likewise, the (Katana carrying) Japanese Officers were terrified of them during WWII, as the Gurkas made a practice of beheading them, thus slowing the entire takeover of SE Asia, allowing many Allied troops/Civilians to escape.
Oh, and it is almost certainly descended from Alexander's troops,who took the Machaira with them on their conquest...which is, in effect, a larger kukri.The Falcata in the APG works well for subbing for this, I suppose.
A more tragic use of them was during Maoist Rebels' takeover of many provinces in Nepal in the last decade. The story that rang true for me (And was really, really horrible) was when they took over an army base. The soldiers had given up, in the face of superior numbers. the Rebels lined them up and...Well, Kukris are good for beheading more than just Oxen... Sorry, a bit grim.
I can understand personal tastes, though. I dislike darts/shiruken, and will take throwing axes/daggers over them every time.
In case anyone is interested, this company makes exceptional kukris.
http://www.khukurihouseonline.com/
Sorry, bit of a favorite topic of mine (Don't even get me started on Mantis Shrimp...).
-Uriel
I think overall it depends on your build and what your stats are. If your going to dump Strength in favor of Weapon Finesse, Superior Weapon Finess (book of Feats, not a Pathfinder source) then definitly Sawtooth blade. Remember, you can always put the Keen property on it or Improved Critical (Sawtooth blade) to get the better crit chances.