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I was reading Kingmaker last night and saw that at one point scalemail +1 was included as treasure. However, looking at the armor stats I was reminded that the only advantage scalemail has over chainmail is its lower cost. They're both medium armors, so any class that can wear scale can also wear chain. I'd like to avoid a pure math based argument, so instead of asking whether scale is ever better than chain, I'd like to ask about everyone's experience with chain/scale. When you play, do you ever stick with scale once you can afford chain? Do your players always sell scale?
I was reading Kingmaker last night and saw that at one point scalemail +1 was included as treasure. However, looking at the armor stats I was reminded that the only advantage scalemail has over chainmail is its lower cost. They're both medium armors, so any class that can wear scale can also wear chain. I'd like to avoid a pure math based argument, so instead of asking whether scale is ever better than chain, I'd like to ask about everyone's experience with chain/scale. When you play, do you ever stick with scale once you can afford chain? Do your players always sell scale?
I have never seen a PC use scale past around third level or so.
I was reading Kingmaker last night and saw that at one point scalemail +1 was included as treasure. However, looking at the armor stats I was reminded that the only advantage scalemail has over chainmail is its lower cost. They're both medium armors, so any class that can wear scale can also wear chain. I'd like to avoid a pure math based argument, so instead of asking whether scale is ever better than chain, I'd like to ask about everyone's experience with chain/scale. When you play, do you ever stick with scale once you can afford chain? Do your players always sell scale?
Scale armor was (historically) easier and cheaper to make than chain; people who could afford chain would wear that, people who couldn't wore scale. Apparently at some point technological advances (trip hammer?) made plate armor cheaper to make than chain (welded chain is VERY labor intensive). I guess standard D&D isn't at that point yet :-).
But no, nobody sticks with scale armor when they can go chain (or breastplate), unless you're a druid wearing dragonscale armor or something. Which is a shame, because scale armor looks so cool. I remember the princess' helmet from Willow with the scale neck protection down the back - it looked awesome.
I was reading Kingmaker last night and saw that at one point scalemail +1 was included as treasure. However, looking at the armor stats I was reminded that the only advantage scalemail has over chainmail is its lower cost. They're both medium armors, so any class that can wear scale can also wear chain. I'd like to avoid a pure math based argument, so instead of asking whether scale is ever better than chain, I'd like to ask about everyone's experience with chain/scale. When you play, do you ever stick with scale once you can afford chain? Do your players always sell scale?Scale armor was (historically) easier and cheaper to make than chain; people who could afford chain would wear that, people who couldn't wore scale. Apparently at some point technological advances (trip hammer?) made plate armor cheaper to make than chain (welded chain is VERY labor intensive). I guess standard D&D isn't at that point yet :-).
The biggest issue with making plate armor in early times is not forging the armor out...it was making the STEEL so you can forge the armor out. It was very hard and time consuming to make a piece of steel big enough to make plate armor. Even early swords weren´t all steel. They had to forge weld iron and steel to make their swords. Quite and art and very beautiful to see actually.
We actually removed the chain shirt and the breastplate from the game, wearing a peice of chest armor shouldnt be as potent of an option as a full suit of armor.
A fairly sensible choice, and makes the various other armors more likely to be used.
Alternately, they could be kept in place, but dropped one point of AC each, to make the other armor types a bit more attractive by comparison).
Yeah, and everybody always uses a long sword. What's up with that that? Long swords should be removed from the game so people will be forced to use scimitars more often.
And great swords, too. They're way too popular. Why can't the great axe get any love? Players should be forced to use the great axe.
And come to think of it, I only see PC classes in my game. What's wrong with the expert? Or the adept? PC classes need a big ban hammer.
And don't get me started on the spells sleep and detect magic. Those get used all the time! Those should be right out as well.
Yeah, and everybody always uses a long sword. What's up with that that? Long swords should be removed from the game so people will be forced to use scimitars more often.
And great swords, too. They're way too popular. Why can't the great axe get any love? Players should be forced to use the great axe.
I've begun to think that armor and weapon tables should be replaced with build-your-own rules.
You can upgrade the AC bonus and weapon damage dice and Max Dex bonus and critical threat range, but the more you do, the more ACP and weapon catagories and armor catagories you accrue. Then you chose what flavor of weapon you'd like.
So a 1d8 18-20/x2 weapon would have to be a martial and/or two-handed weapon, but you could call it your court blade or three-section staff or whatever.
And you could get the +8 armor bonus on you, but no matter if it was half or full plate, or gypsy robes, it counts as heavy armor with a -6 ACP.
I really should sit down and brainstorm that idea out of my head one of these days.
Yeah, and everybody always uses a long sword. What's up with that that? Long swords should be removed from the game so people will be forced to use scimitars more often.
And great swords, too. They're way too popular. Why can't the great axe get any love? Players should be forced to use the great axe.
And come to think of it, I only see PC classes in my game. What's wrong with the expert? Or the adept? PC classes need a big ban hammer.
And don't get me started on the spells sleep and detect magic. Those get used all the time! Those should be right out as well.
Longswords? Are you kidding me? The prefered weapon of choice is the kukuri, scimitar, falchion and rapier. Those are mechanically the best options.
What if you have no choice but to use what you have? I find that the game is more challenging and interesting if the PCs are not always able to find sellers and buyers easily (at least not sellers and buyers who make decisions easy). In fact, I think it is unrealistic and bad GMing if the players can assume that they will always easily find buyers and sellers.
Longswords? Are you kidding me? The prefered weapon of choice is the kukuri, scimitar, falchion and rapier. Those are mechanically the best options.
Yeah, kukris, scimitars and falchions (the falcata and elven curve blade can be added to that list as well)!
Swords are like ladies, we likes 'em with curves.
If you want variety in what your players are using, or in your fellow PCs, show some. I introduced my players to a gang of fighters who used exotic combinations (tridents/ nets, hand crossbow/ longsword, whip/ throwing axes, urgoshes, spiked chains, etc) after confusing, hard-won fights, there was much more variety in the next group of PCs.
Longswords? Are you kidding me? The prefered weapon of choice is the kukuri, scimitar, falchion and rapier. Those are mechanically the best options.
Depends on what you're going with. Frequent crit weapons like those are best with high Str and other bonuses to damage, to get the extra damage. Weapons with larger damage dice like the greatsword is better for people that don't get massive bonuses to damage rolls because they need that higher base and max damage. Which means it sucks for Dex characters because they don't have as high a Str to take advantage of those frequent crits as well.
but high DEX characters can also apply weapon finesse to most of the curved swords. so even they benefit
Still doesn't help their damage.
Example.
Greatsword: 1d6 18-20/x2
Rapier: 3d8 /x3
Guts: 18 STR 10 DEX
Silk: 10 STR 18 DEX
Gut's Damage: 1d6+6 Consistant 7-12 damage with regular spikes from 14-24.
Silk's Damage: 3d8. Random 3-24 damage with rare spikes of 9-72.
This better represents the greatsword ALWAYS being a devastating weapon, while the rapier sometimes REALLY hurts when you skewer someone through the heart.
Longswords? Are you kidding me? The prefered weapon of choice is the kukuri, scimitar, falchion and rapier. Those are mechanically the best options.
I stand corrected. The kukri, scimitar, falchion and rapier should be banned. After all, no one ever uses the trident or the hand axe. Everything else should be banned.
If you want variety in what your players are using, or in your fellow PCs, show some. I introduced my players to a gang of fighters who used exotic combinations (tridents/ nets, hand crossbow/ longsword, whip/ throwing axes, urgoshes, spiked chains, etc) after confusing, hard-won fights, there was much more variety in the next group of PCs.
Like I said guys, If you want variety, expose the PCs to it
Thing is, most of the time, your weapon doesn't matter. Weapon damage is typically a difference of .5 or 1 point of damage. Not a lot. A TWF rogue trying to decide between dagger or short sword - well, it doesn't really matter that much. Sure the short sword is better, but it's better by 1 point; that won't break apart anything. Grab daggers if you want.
Crit range, finessabilitiy, two handedness, or classes who gain something cool with a specific weapon - that's when your weapon really matters. Most of the time though, a fighter who uses a spear compared to a fighter that uses a greatsword compared to a fighter that uses a greataxe? The difference isn't that gigantic.
In my opinion Scale Armor is in the game so that someone has a use for all these slain Dragons.
Historically D&D has been notoriously prone to get their weapons and armors wrong.
Scale Mail wasn't nearly as common as Chain Mail. While it was easier to manufacture than Chain Mail it used a lot more material. In the years between 100 BC and 1100 AD, when these two armors were used along to each other, material cost was everything and labor cost was nothing. Also Scale Mail, while offering a bit more protection (so should having +1 AC), is much more cumbersome (worse spell failure chance and max dex bonus) and should be more expensive.
On to the matter of swords.
In the terminology of the middle ages there were two broad types of swords: Short Swords and Long Swords.
Short Swords were wielded in one hand while Long Swords were wielded usually with two hands.
So you could roll Gladius, Spatha, Dussak, Scramasax, Viking type hew Swords and Norman to Knight to Renaissance one hand Swords into the Short Sword category and War Sword, 1.5 hander / Bastard Sword, Greatsword, Claymore and Bidenhander into the Long Sword Category.
It is accepted today that the Dussak (actually more a knive than a sword) marks the last "common ancestor" between Short Swords and curved Short Swords (Falchion, Scimitar and Saber), however some manuscripts roll even these into the Short Sword category.
If you want to see "historically correct Long Swords" used in a "historically correct" context see HERE.
Karui Kage
(Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Roleplaying Game, Campaign Setting, Companion Subscriber)
The biggest issue with making plate armor in early times is not forging the armor out...it was making the STEEL so you can forge the armor out. It was very hard and time consuming to make a piece of steel big enough to make plate armor. Even early swords weren´t all steel. They had to forge weld iron and steel to make their swords. Quite and art and very beautiful to see actually.
Scale armor was (historically) easier and cheaper to make than chain; people who could afford chain would wear that, people who couldn't wore scale. Apparently at some point technological advances (trip hammer?) made plate armor cheaper to make than chain (welded chain is VERY labor intensive). I guess standard D&D isn't at that point yet :-).
Well, I was talking about later plate, but <shrug>. Early steel was pretty much good fortune in the smelting process. It took a while before anyone could consistently control the carbon content. I'm sure the dwarves have it all figured out though. ^_^
I dislike weapons and armour that are an inferior duplicate of another item. For instance, scale mail is an inferior breastplate and a heavy mace is an inferior morningstar. The only time I use scale mail is at the character creation stage, and then I sell it after my PC's first paycheque.
The trident and handaxe do not fall in this category, though: the trident is the only 1-handed simple/martial weapon that can be braced against a charge, and the handaxe is the only 1d6/x3 simple/martial light weapon. So at least they both have something slightly special about them.
I dislike weapons and armour that are an inferior duplicate of another item. For instance, scale mail is an inferior breastplate and a heavy mace is an inferior morningstar. The only time I use scale mail is at the character creation stage, and then I sell it after my PC's first paycheque.
The trident and handaxe do not fall in this category, though: the trident is the only 1-handed simple/martial weapon that can be braced against a charge, and the handaxe is the only 1d6/x3 simple/martial light weapon. So at least they both have something slightly special about them.
I suspect the plethora of weapon types is just another artefact of 1st edition, where a two page list of weapon types kinda/sorta made it feel like Fighters were getting as many choices or distinctive options as Magic-Users were getting with their spell selection. Once the armor vs. weapon penalties went away (good riddance), a layer of distinctiveness and differentiation went away, to be returned in 3rd edition with critical threat ranges and multipliers, and disarm / reach / trip weapons.
On the one hand, I like GURPS, which divides it's weapons into Axe/Mace (club? hand axe? morningstar? same skill), Two-Handed Axe/Mace, Sword, Two-Handed Sword, Quarterstaff, Polearm, Knife and Fencing. That's pretty much it, with a few odd exceptions here and there. On the other hand, D&D's system is pretty iconic, and Fighter's *should* have more options than just 'Sword.'
Some year, I wouldn't mind finding a game that did the same thing that GURPS does for weapons, for it's magic system. Kinda Ars Magic-y, where you just throw fire, and the better you get at it, the more effect you can produce, but there aren't a dozen fiddly distinctive spells that find new and exciting ways to set people or things on fire. Then again, such a system could never sell books of new spells, could it? Catch-22.
On the one hand, I like GURPS, which divides it's weapons into Axe/Mace (club? hand axe? morningstar? same skill), Two-Handed Axe/Mace, Sword, Two-Handed Sword, Quarterstaff, Polearm, Knife and Fencing. That's pretty much it, with a few odd exceptions here and there. On the other hand, D&D's system is pretty iconic, and Fighter's *should* have more options than just 'Sword.'
Well, that's the point of Weapon Groups, as per Unearthed Arcana.
Well... I Allow breastplates and chain shirts... You wouldn't believe how many things can get around that armour when they attack your unprotected body parts. Our 3rd lvl Dwarf Fighter has learned that when you step on a Viper, neither shield, nor breast plate are of much use.
I don't allow the AC bonus against attacks that target specific locations which the armour doesn't visibly protect.
Druids need non-metal scailmail.Why would a druid wear non-metal scalemail if he could afford a non-metal breastplate?
For the dragonhide example, it takes a colossal dragon to make a single suit of medium dragonhide breastplate. Oddly enough, make scale isn't listed, but if allowed I imagine it would be in the "two sizes smaller" range requiring only a Huge dragon.
Cost isn't everything, there's also availability.
What about vegan druids? Would they not refuse to wear armour out of animal products?
I know a vegan fighter in my area who doesn´t use any leather to strap his armor in place(of course the armor isn´ made from leather). Makes his armor look hideous...but gotta admire the conviction. Wonder if they have nylon back then to strap the ironwood armor....
i think it really depends on what you want your character to look like, i try to come up with an image of what my character looks like and a generic concept of the character before i actually look at the core book to find out the stats, this may not be the best way to get the best bonuses or damage from weapons but i find it helps with coming up with a living character that is not just a number monkey.
Now that I've cooled off a bit...
I WAS posting that I worked out a little something to differentiate weapons from each other(primarily swords, but other weapons as well) along feat-based and masterwork-based lines for my homebrew, I think I might do something similar for armor as well. Is there a comprehensive list of armors out there for 3.5/D20/OGL/whathaveyou? I want everything from Core Rulebook to Oriental Adventures to Rules Compendium.