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I've got another newbie question for you guys - I'm about to start playing pathfinder with a group of level 8 PC's and I'm looking to outfit my ranger character. I'm not willing to spend a feat (or take a dip into fighter) yet on heavy armor proficiency, so I had been looking at a mithral breastplate as the best armor choice for him. As I understand it, a mithral breastplate would give a +6 armor class bonus and would only have a -1 armor check penalty. But then I saw rhino hide in the magic items section of the core rulebook:
Rhino Hide
Aura moderate transmutation; CL 9th
Slot armor; Price 5,165 gp; Weight 25 lbs.
Description
This +2 hide armor is made from rhinoceros hide. In addition
to granting a +2 enhancement bonus to AC, it has a –1 armor
check penalty and deals an additional 2d6 points of damage on
any successful charge attack made by the wearer, including a
mounted charge.
Construction
Requirements Craft Magic Arms and Armor, bull’s strength; Cost
2,665 gp
So it looks as though rhino hide would have a +6 armor class bonus (same as a breastplate). What I'm unclear on is the armor check penalty. Is the rulebook stating that the armor check penalty is only -1 (as for a mithral breastplate), or do they mean it would be one less than for typical hide armor (-3 for hide armor would be reduced to -2)? If they're saying rhino hide actually has only a -1 armor check penalty, it seems to be just as good as a mithral breastplate, but really better because it has the added bonus of +2d6 damage if you charge! So which is it? Thanks in advance for your help!
Weird, yeah that could go either way really.
However, given that it's only 1,165gps more expensive then normal +2 armor, I would say it's armor check penalty should be 1 lower then normal.
The reason for this is mithril light armor adds +1,000gp (which would reduce the penalty to -1), and adding +2d6 damage on a charge is almost certainly worth more then 165gp.
Mithral breastplate is a light armor so no reduced speed. When enchanted to +5 it will give +11 AC with max dex bonus of +5. Rhino hide is medium so you have reduced speed. When enchanted to +5, you will have +9 armor and can add +4 max dex. The armor check penalty will be -1 in each case. Unless you plan on charging a lot, the breastplate is the better option.
Weird, yeah that could go either way really.
However, given that it's only 1,165gps more expensive then normal +2 armor, I would say it's armor check penalty should be 1 lower then normal.
The reason for this is mithril light armor adds +1,000gp (which would reduce the penalty to -1), and adding +2d6 damage on a charge is almost certainly worth more then 165gp.
That's a great answer, but it begs the question... Since when are the prices of magic items derived logically?
For instance, if you want a magic item that will allow you to teleport 3x's a day you can spend 49,000 for boots of teleportation. Or you can spend 73,500 and get a helm of teleportation. Same power, 24,500gp difference. Go figger. They are even the same caster level, so they are equally vulnerable to dispel magic, etc. If anything, I would pay more to have the boots, since the "body space" for boots & shoes is far less important than helms and hats, but it's the other way around!
Weird, yeah that could go either way really.
However, given that it's only 1,165gps more expensive then normal +2 armor, I would say it's armor check penalty should be 1 lower then normal.
The reason for this is mithril light armor adds +1,000gp (which would reduce the penalty to -1), and adding +2d6 damage on a charge is almost certainly worth more then 165gp.
Yeah, it´s true...rhino hide is a bit of a bargin...but then again, it´s really not very good armor....
Mithral breastplate is a light armor so no reduced speed. When enchanted to +5 it will give +11 AC with max dex bonus of +5. Rhino hide is medium so you have reduced speed. When enchanted to +5, you will have +9 armor and can add +4 max dex. The armor check penalty will be -1 in each case. Unless you plan on charging a lot, the breastplate is the better option.
Yeah, rhino hide is Medium...so that would be +4,000gp if you added mithral to a normal medium suit, dropping it to a -1 penalty.
I just remembered though in order to be magical the armor has to be masterwork, which reduces the armor check penalty by 1. So if being made from rhino hide reduced the penalty by an additional 1 it would lower the total armor check penalty to -1.
edit: Hrmm, mithral armor has to be masterwork as well... I wonder if that is already added into the armor check penalty reduction or if mithral armor actually reduces penalties by 3 because of the masterwork.
Mithral breastplate is a light armor so no reduced speed. When enchanted to +5 it will give +11 AC with max dex bonus of +5. Rhino hide is medium so you have reduced speed. When enchanted to +5, you will have +9 armor and can add +4 max dex. The armor check penalty will be -1 in each case. Unless you plan on charging a lot, the breastplate is the better option.Yeah, rhino hide is Medium...so that would be +4,000gp if you added Mithril to a normal medium suit, dropping it to a -1 penalty.
I just remembered though in order to be magical the armor has to be masterwork, which reduces the armor check penalty by 1. So if being made from rhino hide reduced the penalty by an additional 1 it would lower the total armor check penalty to -1.
So yeah;
4,200gp Mithral Breastplate +6 AC -2 Penalty, 30ft move speed
5,165gp Rhino Hide +6 AC -1 Penalty, +2d6 damage on a charge, 20ft move speed
4,350gp Mw. Mithral Breastplate +6 AC -1 Penalty, 30ft move speed
O.K. to begin with, there is no such thing as Master Work Mithral, Adamantine, Darkwood or Dragon Hide. In order to have something made from them they are already M.W. In most cases the M.W. quality IS ALREADY INCLUDED. For Mithral and adamantine its already included and Darkwood and Dragon Hide it must automatically be masterwork but also extra costs are added above that base.
Also, you can not add mithral to Rhino Hide because its not a metal based armor. Rhino Hide is a SPECIFIC magic type armor and its already automatically masterwork since its enchanted to begin with.
Thanks for all the quick replies - one thing I forgot to mention: my ranger is a dwarf, so the speed penalties don't apply to him.
So, at least at the base level of rhino hide (+2 AC bonus), for a dwarven PC rhino hide would actually be equivalent to a mithral breastplate for purposes of AC, armor check penalty and base movement. But I also get the lagniappe of +2d6 if I ever get to charge (not sure how often that'll come in handy).
I should point out though, the rhino hide already has a +2 magic enhancement, so the most I could add to it would be another +3 to AC (for a total of +5, just like any armor). And I'm guessing that next step up from +2 to +3 would cost 9000 - 4000 = 5000 gp, not just 1000 gp as it would to get a mithral breastplate to a +1 magic enhancement bonus.
Weird, yeah that could go either way really.
However, given that it's only 1,165gps more expensive then normal +2 armor, I would say it's armor check penalty should be 1 lower then normal.
The reason for this is mithril light armor adds +1,000gp (which would reduce the penalty to -1), and adding +2d6 damage on a charge is almost certainly worth more then 165gp.
It is not concidered one lower than normal it IS a -1 AC for that armor. Rhino Hide armor is a specific magic armor, like plate armor of the deep or celestial armor. It is not a new material or alternate material like darkwood or mithral. It is not a template to apply to other armor types. It is what it is.
Rhino armor says
"This +2 hide armor is made from rhinoceros hide. In addition to granting a +2 enhancement bonus to AC, it has a –1 armor check penalty and deals an additional 2d6 points of damage on any successful charge attack made by the wearer, including a mounted charge."
it has a -1 armor check penalty. Not that it reduces the armor heck penalty by 1. Seems pretty clear it has an armor check penalty of -1.
Weird, yeah that could go either way really.
However, given that it's only 1,165gps more expensive then normal +2 armor, I would say it's armor check penalty should be 1 lower then normal.
The reason for this is mithril light armor adds +1,000gp (which would reduce the penalty to -1), and adding +2d6 damage on a charge is almost certainly worth more then 165gp.
That's a great answer, but it begs the question... Since when are the prices of magic items derived logically?
For instance, if you want a magic item that will allow you to teleport 3x's a day you can spend 49,000 for boots of teleportation. Or you can spend 73,500 and get a helm of teleportation. Same power, 24,500gp difference. Go figger. They are even the same caster level, so they are equally vulnerable to dispel magic, etc. If anything, I would pay more to have the boots, since the "body space" for boots & shoes is far less important than helms and hats, but it's the other way around!
This is because boots are associated with Movement-based powers like teleportation, and thus the helm gets a 50% price hike to account for it being in the wrong body slot.
This is because boots are associated with Movement-based powers like teleportation, and thus the helm gets a 50% price hike to account for it being in the wrong body slot.Weird, yeah that could go either way really.
However, given that it's only 1,165gps more expensive then normal +2 armor, I would say it's armor check penalty should be 1 lower then normal.
The reason for this is mithril light armor adds +1,000gp (which would reduce the penalty to -1), and adding +2d6 damage on a charge is almost certainly worth more then 165gp.
That's a great answer, but it begs the question... Since when are the prices of magic items derived logically?
For instance, if you want a magic item that will allow you to teleport 3x's a day you can spend 49,000 for boots of teleportation. Or you can spend 73,500 and get a helm of teleportation. Same power, 24,500gp difference. Go figger. They are even the same caster level, so they are equally vulnerable to dispel magic, etc. If anything, I would pay more to have the boots, since the "body space" for boots & shoes is far less important than helms and hats, but it's the other way around!
Isn't that a relic of 3.5? Cause that rules not in Pathfinder anymore.
Mithral breastplate is a light armor so no reduced speed. When enchanted to +5 it will give +11 AC with max dex bonus of +5. Rhino hide is medium so you have reduced speed. When enchanted to +5, you will have +9 armor and can add +4 max dex. The armor check penalty will be -1 in each case. Unless you plan on charging a lot, the breastplate is the better option.Yeah, rhino hide is Medium...so that would be +4,000gp if you added Mithril to a normal medium suit, dropping it to a -1 penalty.
I just remembered though in order to be magical the armor has to be masterwork, which reduces the armor check penalty by 1. So if being made from rhino hide reduced the penalty by an additional 1 it would lower the total armor check penalty to -1.
So yeah;
4,200gp Mithral Breastplate +6 AC -2 Penalty, 30ft move speed
5,165gp Rhino Hide +6 AC -1 Penalty, +2d6 damage on a charge, 20ft move speed
4,350gp Mw. Mithral Breastplate +6 AC -1 Penalty, 30ft move speedO.K. to begin with, there is no such thing as Master Work Mithral, Adamantine, Darkwood or Dragon Hide. In order to have something made from them they are already M.W. In most cases the M.W. quality IS ALREADY INCLUDED. For Mithral and adamantine its already included and Darkwood and Dragon Hide it must automatically be masterwork but also extra costs are added above that base.
Also, you can not add mithral to Rhino Hide because its not a metal based armor. Rhino Hide is a SPECIFIC magic type armor and its already automatically masterwork since its enchanted to begin with.
Right I wasn't saying you can make mithral rhino hide, and I could have sworn I edited out that section with the GP prices there.... post genie just have put it back.
Where exactly does it say that the benefit of Masterwork is already added into being Mithral armor? I know it says that all Mithral armor must be masterwork and that it has an armor check penalty lowered by 2. It says that the cost is included but there's no mention of the bonus being already included?
It is not concidered one lower than normal it IS a -1 AC for that armor. Rhino Hide armor is a specific magic armor, like plate armor of the deep or celestial armor. It is not a new material or alternate material like darkwood or mithral. It is not a template to apply to other armor types. It is what it is.Weird, yeah that could go either way really.
However, given that it's only 1,165gps more expensive then normal +2 armor, I would say it's armor check penalty should be 1 lower then normal.
The reason for this is mithril light armor adds +1,000gp (which would reduce the penalty to -1), and adding +2d6 damage on a charge is almost certainly worth more then 165gp.
1 lower then the armor check for hide armor is -2, not -1.
1 lower then the armor check for hide armor is -2, not -1.It is not concidered one lower than normal it IS a -1 AC for that armor. Rhino Hide armor is a specific magic armor, like plate armor of the deep or celestial armor. It is not a new material or alternate material like darkwood or mithral. It is not a template to apply to other armor types. It is what it is.Weird, yeah that could go either way really.
However, given that it's only 1,165gps more expensive then normal +2 armor, I would say it's armor check penalty should be 1 lower then normal.
The reason for this is mithril light armor adds +1,000gp (which would reduce the penalty to -1), and adding +2d6 damage on a charge is almost certainly worth more then 165gp.
Rhino armor does not say the Armor Check Penalty is 1 lower than hide armor, it says the the Armor Check Penalty IS -1. The total in game Armor Check Penalty used for Rhino Armor is -1, not -2.
The ONLY way it could be -2 is if the description says it reduces the Armor Check Penalty of Hide Armor by 1 (or some such language). It specifically states instead that it HAS an Armor Check Penalty of -1. Just like Hide Armor HAS an Armor Check Penalty of -3, Rhino Armor HAS an Armor Check Penalty of -1. The description in no way shape or form lists the Armor Check Penalty as a modifier to Hide Armor.
Where exactly does it say that the benefit of Masterwork is already added into being Mithral armor? I know it says that all Mithral armor must be masterwork and that it has an armor check penalty lowered by 2. It...
Actually now that I think about it... almost no one ever reduces the Armor Check Penalty of Magic Armor by 1, but rather uses the base penalty listed in the chart.
That is, a normal suit of Full Plate armor has stats of AC +9, Max Dex +1, Armor Check Penalty -6.
A +2 Full Plate armor should have total stats of AC +11, Max Dex +1 and Armor Check Penalty -5! Otherwise the armor is NOT Masterwork!
I'd go with the mithral. The rhino hide might be slightly better in the short term (note however that for the cost of the rhino hide you could have a +1 mithral breastplate, with a +7 total AC bonus). However, as you progress, the breastplate will be cheaper to continue to enchant, so your AC should be consistently better, especially if you have or plan on having a decent Dexterity score.
I would only consider the rhino hide if you have a build focused on charging, and plan on doing it a lot. Even so, in most battles you'll probably charge once, so you are looking at maybe +7 damage on average on zero to two attacks versus +1 to +2 bonus to your AC. I'd take the AC bonus.
Where exactly does it say that the benefit of Masterwork is already added into being Mithral armor? I know it says that all Mithral armor must be masterwork and that it has an armor check penalty lowered by 2. It...
Since all mithral armors must be masterwork per Core Book p.154/5 would they not already include the masterwork affect into the statistics for mithral? That kind of makes sense does it not? However I can tell you will need further convincing so here goes. Exhibit A - proceed to page 466 in the Core Book and look at the stats for Mithral Full Plate of Speed. You will see it lists the stats as Max. Dex. +3, Armor Check -3 and Arcane Spell Failure of 25%. All three of those (especially Armor Check) are exactly what you would expect for non-magical mitrhal full plate. If the M.W. was not already figured into Mithral then its Armor Check would be listed as -2. Case Closed
