The PFCR states that the GM should basically, eyeball the object used to determine it's damage as an improvised weapon.

A portable ram weighs 20 lbs and a warhammer weighs 5 lbs and does 1d8 damage.

Should a portable ram, therefore, do 4d8 damage as an improvised weapon, or is that excessive?

Thoughts?

It would be like a Large Great Club I imagine. You should check Complete Warrior. There is a section on improvised weapons.

Weapon damage shouldn't scale linearly with the weight of the weapon. That's just crazy -- a cloud giant's greatclub would smear PCs into a fine red paste.

I'd go with something like greatclub damage (1d10).

Weapon damage shouldn't scale linearly with the weight of the weapon; that's just crazy.

Especially since it isn't crafted or wielded like a warhammer. All the reinforcement is at the front and, mechanically speaking, would be wielded more like a stabbing weapon if wielded properly. Though you just bash people over the head with it too..

Each increase in weapon size increases the weight by 2. I would treat the ram as a club (d6) then increase it by size categories until you get arround the weight (2-3). This would result in a 2d6 or 3d6 weapon.

Keep in mind that the heaviest weapons in the book are 12 lbs (15 for the orc double axe). Those weapons are not realistically weighted, and should be much less (divide by half and you are not far off for a lot of them.) THis is because its impratical to use heavy objects as weapons. If the player wanted to use heavy objects like this, I would apply penalties for being too small.

Right.

Objects simply become impractical as weapons beyond a certain weight. The values listed in the core book are significantly higher than they should be (anything over 10 lbs is too high, even for two-handed weapons).

It doesn't matter if you can pick up something with that weight, swing it two-three times, and think that the weight is fine; weapons have to be balanced so someone can swing it around for hours without dropping from exhaustion, and so that it can be swung easily while still hitting for optimal force. it's sort of like modern-day golf clubs, baseball bats, and rifles - bigger and stronger isn't always better.

I believe one of the original authors of 3rd edition commented on this in an old issue of Dragon, saying that the weight was partially based on real world figures, partially based on the weapon's encumbrance (difficulty to transport / carry long distances (this is why polearms are heavier than your yard shovel or rake)), and partly on game balance (spells and special materials). In other words, it's not meant to be 100% accurate.

Greatclub seems like a reasonable suggestion.

Also, you don't want to make it too awesome. If you make it a 4d8 weapon, for instance, that is 9 average damage better than a 2HS. 9 damage for taking the improvized weapon feat is way too good. In general, improvized weapons should not be made better than normal ones.

Also, you don't want to make it too awesome. If you make it a 4d8 weapon, for instance, that is 9 average damage better than a 2HS. 9 damage for taking the improvized weapon feat is way too good. In general, improvized weapons should not be made better than normal ones.

Exactly. If you make heavy objects do a disproportionate amount of damage, then prepare for some Wile E. Coyote-style antics with anvils and the Shrink Item spell, for instance.

Caineach wrote:

Also, you don't want to make it too awesome. If you make it a 4d8 weapon, for instance, that is 9 average damage better than a 2HS. 9 damage for taking the improvized weapon feat is way too good. In general, improvized weapons should not be made better than normal ones.

Exactly. If you make heavy objects do a disproportionate amount of damage, then prepare for some Wile E. Coyote-style antics with anvils and the Shrink Item spell, for instance.

Exactly what I was concerned about.

Caineach wrote:

Also, you don't want to make it too awesome. If you make it a 4d8 weapon, for instance, that is 9 average damage better than a 2HS. 9 damage for taking the improvized weapon feat is way too good. In general, improvized weapons should not be made better than normal ones.

Exactly. If you make heavy objects do a disproportionate amount of damage, then prepare for some Wile E. Coyote-style antics with anvils and the Shrink Item spell, for instance.

Seen it. There are rules for weight based damage on throwing weapons in 3.5 (haven't looked in Pathfinder). The hulking hurler was known for abusing this cheeze. You could throw 100 lb objects the same range as 10 or 1 lb ones, but they did more damage. Its pretty broken when you start seeing guys with 24 str throwing stuff for 4d6+12 damage.

hogarth wrote:

Caineach wrote:

Also, you don't want to make it too awesome. If you make it a 4d8 weapon, for instance, that is 9 average damage better than a 2HS. 9 damage for taking the improvized weapon feat is way too good. In general, improvized weapons should not be made better than normal ones.

Exactly. If you make heavy objects do a disproportionate amount of damage, then prepare for some Wile E. Coyote-style antics with anvils and the Shrink Item spell, for instance.

Seen it. There are rules for weight based damage on throwing weapons in 3.5 (haven't looked in Pathfinder). The hulking hurler was known for abusing this cheeze. You could throw 100 lb objects the same range as 10 or 1 lb ones, but they did more damage. Its pretty broken when you start seeing guys with 24 str throwing stuff for 4d6+12 damage.

Hey, if you have the technical capability to throw trees at people, you're going to do it.

If you have the Improvised Weapon Mastery feat and are wielding a two-handed improvised weapon, the maximum damage would be 2d6. Weight seems to have no impact.

In Judo people throw people, and in Aikido people throw people at people! Supposedly as far as ten feet or a little bit farther. Two man tossing a coffin in the direction of an invisible undead had some significant effect. Not because it was a coffin and he was undead though. You could estimate on the amount of time a portable ram would take to knock down a heavy door. I have seen stats like that somewhere. I agree that 20 pounds is too heavy to swing like a club, but for a strong character to shoulder and then throw it sounds good. 40 pound dumbells aren't all that big, but would not be easy to throw and could easily kill any unarmored target. But in terms of knocking down doors, are you sure it isn't 200 pounds? That would be portable with a wagon.

Caineach wrote:

hogarth wrote:

Caineach wrote:

Also, you don't want to make it too awesome. If you make it a 4d8 weapon, for instance, that is 9 average damage better than a 2HS. 9 damage for taking the improvized weapon feat is way too good. In general, improvized weapons should not be made better than normal ones.

Exactly. If you make heavy objects do a disproportionate amount of damage, then prepare for some Wile E. Coyote-style antics with anvils and the Shrink Item spell, for instance.

Seen it. There are rules for weight based damage on throwing weapons in 3.5 (haven't looked in Pathfinder). The hulking hurler was known for abusing this cheeze. You could throw 100 lb objects the same range as 10 or 1 lb ones, but they did more damage. Its pretty broken when you start seeing guys with 24 str throwing stuff for 4d6+12 damage.

Hey, if you have the technical capability to throw trees at people, you're going to do it.

I do. Feather Tokens are cheack and readied actions against charge are fun.