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I'm mocking your attempts to paint Herolab's charging for extra content for an already supported system as defensible because it is some new, revolutionary addition to the system when it is most certainly not. Programming wise: Human = Elf = Ogre = Rust Monster. There is no new added functionality to apply templates or class levels to some random creature if that functionality already existed for normal player races.According to the programmers at Lone Wolf, it ain't "just more of the same". It's a ton of work, and it's not just data entry.
Mock away if you like, but after years of dealing with 3.X ed freeware character builders, few even bothered to tackle monster advancement. So yeah, to me, this IS revolutionary. And well worth the $10-$15 they intend to charge, at least to this DM.
Adding templates and classes to monsters are the same as adding them to player races. Advancing monster HD is technically the same as adding classes, but that requires a bit more work to accept. It really depends how you do it. I am certain a team would solve this alot quicker than me by myself.
Of course if all this stuff was already added for 3.5, then it already exists in the system and can either be ported or accessed for Pathfinder based on design.Also, $10-15 for the digital version of every book, that's like "pay Herolab or pay Paizo." You are getting all the data and all the background work for between the cost of the digital book and the print book. It's almost not fair to Paizo for Herolab to charge $10 per added Pathfinder book.
I'm mocking your attempts to paint Herolab's charging for extra content for an already supported system as defensible because it is some new, revolutionary addition to the system when it is most certainly not. Programming wise: Human = Elf = Ogre = Rust Monster. There is no new added functionality to apply templates or class levels to some random creature if that functionality already existed for normal player races.According to the programmers at Lone Wolf, it ain't "just more of the same". It's a ton of work, and it's not just data entry.
Mock away if you like, but after years of dealing with 3.X ed freeware character builders, few even bothered to tackle monster advancement. So yeah, to me, this IS revolutionary. And well worth the $10-$15 they intend to charge, at least to this DM.
Adding templates and classes to monsters are the same as adding them to player races. Advancing monster HD is technically the same as adding classes, but that requires a bit more work to accept. It really depends how you do it. I am certain a team would solve this alot quicker than me by myself.
Of course if all this stuff was already added for 3.5, then it already exists in the system and can either be ported or accessed for Pathfinder based on design.Also, $10-15 for the digital version of every book, that's like "pay Herolab or pay Paizo." You are getting all the data and all the background work for between the cost of the digital book and the print book. It's almost not fair to Paizo for Herolab to charge $10 per added Pathfinder book.
But your talking about 1 to 2 books a year. Compaired to all the rest of the work that goes on, that a very small percentage of data being charged. The books is where most of the crunch happens and sense this is where most of the coding needs to be, I don't follow your logic. Why shouldn't were reward hard work?
FWIW, with PC Gen, you pay $0. Not quite as a user-friendly interface, but $0.
I'm not suggesting PC Gen for an official "Digital Tool" either, but if you're going to look at various character generators and editors of choice...
Amen!
All this talk about Hero Lab and stuff...jeez - PCgen is a great tool, still in very active development (bug fixes, new features, new datasets, new rules, etc). Granted it may not have quite as easy to use interface, but I picked it up very quickly and there's a very active and friendly community that can help noobies with getting started.
That said, I've yet to see a more powerful and flexible tool for both PCs and GMs. Add on the fact that it's free, it runs on Windows/Mac/Linux, and you've got my vote.
The beastiary is already supported as a dataset, and you don't even have to pay an extra $20 for it!
...besides, I decided to go back and give the trial of Hero Lab a try and see if it's improved enough to be worth my money, and found a bug in the very first character I created. Agile Maneuvers doesn't properly apply the dex bonus to Combat maneuvers.
Meh. Save your money and use PCgen.
Adding templates and classes to monsters are the same as adding them to player races. Advancing monster HD is technically the same as adding classes, but that requires a bit more work to accept. It really depends how you do it. I am certain a team would solve this alot quicker than me by myself.
Of course if all this stuff was already added for 3.5, then it already exists in the system and can either be ported or accessed for Pathfinder based on design.Also, $10-15 for the digital version of every book, that's like "pay Herolab or pay Paizo." You are getting all the data and all the background work for between the cost of the digital book and the print book. It's almost not fair to Paizo for Herolab to charge $10 per added Pathfinder book.
In case you hadn't noticed, there are a few differences between 3.5 and PRPG. And no, HeroLab did not have the ability to advance non-humanoid monsters in 3.5. Advancing a rust monster is not like advancing a humanoid either. Since they are incapable of weilding weapons or equipment, they need some special fine tuning in the data files right there. Size changes to monsters is another area that's different. It's work to code all this in and make it work right, they should be paid for it after all.
And Lone Wolf wasn't charging $10-$15 for each new sourcebook for 3.5 or Mutants and Masterminds or Savage Worlds or any of the other systems they support. They charged $10-$20 for major overhauls or massive data input. The bestiary + the added functionality they are coding in is probably worth $10-$20. And they aren't taking money away from Paizo, because they aren't giving you a sourcebook, they are plugging the OGL crunchy parts of a dataset into their program, not the same as buying a PDF of a book.
In case you hadn't noticed, there are a few differences between 3.5 and PRPG. And no, HeroLab did not have the ability to advance non-humanoid monsters in 3.5. Advancing a rust monster is not like advancing a humanoid either. Since they are incapable of weilding weapons or equipment, they need some special fine tuning in the data files right there.
From a relevant perspective, I don't see how weapon/armor wielding is remotely relevant to progression.
Size changes to monsters is another area that's different.
Not any different than a class that gives you wings. You note when it occurs and when it does, you change the size and let back end functions deal with the details of sizes.
Advancing a monster is like advancing a class. You add a hit die, increase BAB, increase saves, add feats every X levels, add ability bonus every X levels, add racial abilities gained at X hit die. In fact, they are the same thing. Monster advancement is effectively adding another level of the "monster" class.
There is a whole unearthed arcana section on this under "blood lines."
I know how to advance a monster, trust me. I've done it enough times, via HD advancement, multiple templates and by class levels.
On Paper
I didn't have to make it mesh with hundreds of lines of computer code.
There isn't a "monster class" until they enter the code for it. And there wouldn't be one, there would be an "abberation class", "dragon class", "outsider class", etc etc. Even then, members of the same "class" can have different weapon proficiencies, sizes, special abilities, capabilities (if you can't hold a weapon, the "weapons" tab has to be changed, if you can't wear armor, the "armor" tab also must be changed). All this has to be coded in, tested, debugged, re-tested, etc etc.
You don't think it's worth the money, fine, don't spend your hard earned cash on it. If you think it's easy writing a program to handle monster advancement concurrently with character advancement, fine, write one up and show us how easy it is. I for one don't think Lone Wolf is lying about the work they have to put into the project and I also think the price is reasonable. I've gotten regular free updates for the 3 licenses I own for Hero Lab for over the course of a couple of years now, and I didn't have to subscribe to get it. I feel the product is worth the price they charge. You... don't.
Ive rather noticed Cartigan throwing alot of Hate on this Thread so I dont think there is a non Smart A$$ remark for his coment
Yeah, he's been thread-crapping pretty hard here. This thread is about if Paizo is thinking of digital tools and possible ideas but all he's shown is hatred for digital tools except for 4E's tool. Haven't heard a good suggestion yet from him, just keyboard diarrhea.
I think you missed the point being made here...And with the $140 you also have access to Dungeon and Dragon magazines and other tools.But for Us players of Pathfinder its Useless because its forth edI definitely have.
I've taken a gander at the 4E character tools and they are nice, but since I dont and probably will never again play or DM 4E it's effectively worthless to me as a Pathfinder or Mutants and Masterminds or Savage Worlds DM.
So please, without snark or douchyness, explain what point are Joey and I missing?
The point is that, as far as tabletop RPG character generators go, we have a couple examples of what is possible. HeroLab is one, and the Character Builder is the other. Each has its perks, but the point being made was regarding value; you get a ton of stuff for your subscription to Insider. Comparing it in value to HeroLab is worthwhile. Regardless of what you think of the edition it supports, D&D Insider has pretty firmly established itself as the primary example of what is possible in terms of digital tools for a tabletop RPG.
If you're still having trouble with the comparison, imagine a world in which there was no cross-compatibility between Macs and PCs. Imagine that Microsoft releases a suite of office tools (a word processing program, spreadsheet tool, presentation creator, etc.) for the PC priced at $100. Imagine that Apple releases a suite of office tools, except its only major program is a word processor, and that it costs $150. Despite the fact that you can't interchange the two suites of programs, it is still worthwhile to compare the two because you know what is possible by virtue of it existing for the other platform.
Ive rather noticed Cartigan throwing alot of Hate on this Thread so I dont think there is a non Smart A$$ remark for his comentYeah, he's been thread-crapping pretty hard here. This thread is about if Paizo is thinking of digital tools and possible ideas but all he's shown is hatred for digital tools except for 4E's tool. Haven't heard a good suggestion yet from him, just keyboard diarrhea.
Actually, his first post in this thread was exactly that: a suggestion on how to approach a suite of digital tools for Paizo.
He may not be rolling 20s on his Diplomacy checks, but you guys aren't exactly being charitable to him in return. Ditch the derisive language before you complain about his bedside manner.
Ive rather noticed Cartigan throwing alot of Hate on this Thread so I dont think there is a non Smart A$$ remark for his comentYeah, he's been thread-crapping pretty hard here. This thread is about if Paizo is thinking of digital tools and possible ideas but all he's shown is hatred for digital tools except for 4E's tool. Haven't heard a good suggestion yet from him, just keyboard diarrhea.Actually, his first post in this thread was exactly that: a suggestion on how to approach a suite of digital tools for Paizo.
He may not be rolling 20s on his Diplomacy checks, but you guys aren't exactly being charitable to him in return. Ditch the derisive language before you complain about his bedside manner.
Actually, his first post was NOT a suggestion:
Paizo has some tools for the Iphone/IPad/Ipod that are supposed to come out this year.Who gives a frack about those? I don't have an iPaidTooMuchMoney. I have a computer.
It was just as rude as the rest. He seems to want free. If that is so, get PCGen is all the advice that can be given. I own Herolab & like it pretty well so far. I can't help if he doesn't, but he could show some respect to those that do. If he would be civil, then civility might be returned to him. As it stands now, all he has done can be summed up to flaming.
Actually, his first post was NOT a suggestion:Whoops, you're right. I only checked starting at my first post in the thread. Either way, he has made a suggestion.
All I'm saying is that if you're not a fan of how he's conducted himself, don't turn that into hypocrisy by flinging insults back at him.
If you go to his profile & look at his recent posts, I see why he may be hating on Herolab. It would be competition. He seems to want to write his own in this thread. If he does, then more power to him. But if his conduct on this thread is an example of what his customer service skills are going to be, then I won't be buying from him. I won't even download it for free.
This thread is about Paizo's plans for digital tools. Paizo doesn't support 4E and as far as I know has no plans to support 4E. More than likely the people on this board who care about Paizo's possible support for digtal tools care about it's support for Pathfinder NOT 4E. So again how did this turn into 4E's digital tools are awesome and Hero Lab is a rip-off or somehow inferior? The bottom line is the HL supports Pathfinder, 4E digital tools does not. It can be awesome as the day is long it still doesn't do what I need it to do.
This is kind of what I was referring to about missing the point.
No, this thread is NOT about 4E. We were comparing the costs of HeroLab to WotC Character Builder. Yes, the WotC CB only works for 4E. Which is not what ANYONE was talking about in comparing their costs. The POINT was the character builder is a single tool in a suite of tools you get in a subscription in addition to adventure paths and the magazines. THAT was what was being compared to the costs of what you get with HeroLab, which are apparently going to go by the book Pathfinder wise. My suggestion was to just have Pathfinder commission their own software like WotC and have it work for Pathfinder.
Cartigan,
I don't only use Herolab. As for the by the book thing? I bought it knowing that they charged for different rules sets. Not by the book, like you claim, Cartigan. Anyway, I bought it knowing this up front. Just as everyone else that paid for it did. We know what we were paying for. You have a problem, well that's fine. I shopped around & determined that the software I wanted was Herolab. I'm sure most everybody else looked around too. You are beating a dead horse. You made your point, but those of us that like the program are happy with it. Is it all I'll ever use? Maybe not. i may change to PCGen again when they come out with their new UI. I may go with the RPGTools suite of programs. All I know for sure is, because of your attitude on this thread, I won't ever own anything produced by you. Your conduct has been abusive and argumentative. That is not conducive to customer relations. Take that with a grain of salt.
The thing with WotC suite is that it is dead. My understanding is that they were not ready for the scope of writing the software in-house. This has lead to enough delays that Wizards is thinking about scraping the idea. How much do you get for your money now?
The thing with WotC suite is that it is dead. My understanding is that they were not ready for the scope of writing the software in-house. This has lead to enough delays that Wizards is thinking about scraping the idea. How much do you get for your money now?
1) The character builder still works.
2) Dungeon and Dragon and adventures will still be put out3) This thread was not about hero(lab) worship. It was about any possible future tools from Paizo.
4) If you read the thread, you see that people repeatedly mention Herolab is intending to charge for adding the PF Beastiary and other PF items. I wasn't aware they were different rule sets.
The thing with WotC suite is that it is dead. My understanding is that they were not ready for the scope of writing the software in-house. This has lead to enough delays that Wizards is thinking about scraping the idea. How much do you get for your money now?1) The character builder still works.
2) Dungeon and Dragon and adventures will still be put out
3) This thread was not about hero(lab) worship. It was about any possible future tools from Paizo.
4) If you read the thread, you see that people repeatedly mention Herolab is intending to charge for adding the PF Beastiary and other PF items. I wasn't aware they were different rule sets.
If WotC manages to put out a working program, I'll be surpised, but you are right. That is not the point of this thread. I did read this thread. The derailment to nothing but Herolab was actually stated by your hating on Herolab. Ironic, when you think about it. Herolab was mentioned as a front runner because it is a professionally done setup. Like it or not, the UI is easy to use and full featured. I actually got it to integrate with d20Pro Virtual Tabletop. My only problem will be the need fro my players to own a copy of Herolab to do what I want to do. I wish they would setup a Group License so I could but a 4-6 player pack at a discount. For my use, I only need one copy of d20Pro.
Now, lets both work to get the thread back on track. You stated your case. The opposition stated theirs. To be honest, though, this is a customer driven decision. If this many people are already onboard with Herolab, Paizo may have a strong indicator on what the customers want. At least the apparent majority of us.
I still think that the comparison is meaningless if I'm not a PC user. If I'm a mac user then I really dont CARE what the value of the Windows based software is. If there is someone out there show uses both then yes, it's valid. But if I run and play Pathfinder and not 4E then what's the point?
Again, the point is that if you're being charged more for a comparable (or worse, lacking) suite of software simply by virtue of it being on another platform, chances are you could have been charged less for it - to put it bluntly, you wouldn't be getting your money's worth.
Additionally, if there are users out there who haven't made the choice between a PC or a Mac, the cost of software might inform that decision. This is something else that needs to be taken into account.
The thing with WotC suite is that it is dead. My understanding is that they were not ready for the scope of writing the software in-house. This has lead to enough delays that Wizards is thinking about scraping the idea. How much do you get for your money now?
You may want to consider the possibility that all of your info on D&D Insider is about two years out of date.
Not only is WotC ecstatic about the success of their subscription service (it boasts 28,693 subscribers, and that's only the ones who have also registered on their forum community; most estimates put the actual number in the hundred[s] of thousands range), they've rolled out a second application (the Monster Builder) and reportedly have more on the way. Additionally, a forum post from the DDI studio team recently indicated that they were hiring additional staff. Finally, they've been in talks with the Carnegie Mellon SurfaceScapes project team about doing something official with their virtual tabletop suite.
They now have two full-featured applications that receive monthly updates and contain data for every 4e supplement, two digital magazines that release new material on a daily basis, a searchable database of every rule element in the game, and a handful of other handy tools that all fall under their $10/month subscription umbrella.
If this is "dead" to you, I'd hate to hear what you think of HeroLab.
Seems to me this thread has totally derailed from a useful topic to a useless one.
As I read the topic it is about Paizo and digital tools. I'd suggest you guys create a new topic to debate HeroesLab and PCGen.
Now, on topic I'd really like to see robust tools for the iPhone and iPad (I'll get one ASAP). I don't know how difficult it is to port out aps for different phone platforms but the more the better. I suspect though it may not be feasable to cover all of the smart phones out there now.
Finally, they've been in talks with the Carnegie Mellon SurfaceScapes project team about doing something official with their virtual tabletop suite.
Would that be the virtual tabletop that was supposed to be available as a part of the DDI upon 4th ed's launch? The one heavily promoted as a major change to how TTRPGs are played? The VTT that is still vaporware 2 years after it was promised to be available?
Yeah, that one.
I'm sure WotC is estatic about having a subscription model, it means guaranteed money they can use to plan their future releases on. But correct me if I'm wrong, once you stop subscribing, you lose access to everything but the character builder? If so, how can you compare value when with one product you have it in perpetuity with free bug fixes and updates, and the other takes away 90% of the features if you don't keep paying?
If you go to his profile & look at his recent posts, I see why he may be hating on Herolab. It would be competition. He seems to want to write his own in this thread. If he does, then more power to him. But if his conduct on this thread is an example of what his customer service skills are going to be, then I won't be buying from him. I won't even download it for free.Actually, his first post was NOT a suggestion:Whoops, you're right. I only checked starting at my first post in the thread. Either way, he has made a suggestion.
All I'm saying is that if you're not a fan of how he's conducted himself, don't turn that into hypocrisy by flinging insults back at him.
Well, THAT explains a lot, LoL.
I've owned HeroLab for several years now; here are my thoughts:
First, it's a good program; probably the best character generator out there. The graceful handling of multiple different systems tells me that some thought obviously went into the design.
Second, the licensing system is somewhat onerous, especially for someone like me, who tinkers with/rebuilds/reformats his computer multiple times per year. I get why they do it, but it's still a pain in the @$$.
Third, whenever I've had to deal with customer service (to transfer datasets between two licenses, for example), they've been clear, friendly, and pleasant to work with.
Finally, the price is more than fair. Excellent value.
Overall, it comes highly recommended.
The thing with WotC suite is that it is dead. My understanding is that they were not ready for the scope of writing the software in-house. This has lead to enough delays that Wizards is thinking about scraping the idea. How much do you get for your money now?You may want to consider the possibility that all of your info on D&D Insider is about two years out of date.
Not only is WotC ecstatic about the success of their subscription service (it boasts 28,693 subscribers, and that's only the ones who have also registered on their forum community; most estimates put the actual number in the hundred[s] of thousands range), they've rolled out a second application (the Monster Builder) and reportedly have more on the way. Additionally, a forum post from the DDI studio team recently indicated that they were hiring additional staff. Finally, they've been in talks with the Carnegie Mellon SurfaceScapes project team about doing something official with their virtual tabletop suite.
They now have two full-featured applications that receive monthly updates and contain data for every 4e supplement, two digital magazines that release new material on a daily basis, a searchable database of every rule element in the game, and a handful of other handy tools that all fall under their $10/month subscription umbrella.
If this is "dead" to you, I'd hate to hear what you think of HeroLab.
Wow, some real confirmation bias on both sides here.
DDI insider probably deserves a "C." Yes, it's a good value for a 4E player right now, and has the possibility of getting significantly better in the future, but most of the value lies in access to data, not in Wotc's software development. Character Builder is nice, but not particularly well-engineered, and the Gametable that was promised in 2007 is still 100% vaporware. Further, the development that is going on is taking too long for what *is* being produced. How long was the Monster Builder in "beta?" And while it would be wonderful if they get the SurfaceScape application, baking vs. buying is quite different.
In short, WoTC's software development competence remains *very much* in question to people who know what they're looking at...
Wow, some real confirmation bias on both sides here.DDI insider probably deserves a "C." Yes, it's a good value for a 4E player right now, and has the possibility of getting significantly better in the future, BUT the Gametable that was promised in 2007 is still vaporware, and the development that is going on is taking too long for what *is* being produced. And wonderful if they get the SurfaceScape application, but baking vs. buying is quite different.
In short, WoTC's software development...
The crapping on WotC software for not doing everything every single person can conceive for every single RPG system and hand waving away any problems there are with Hero Lab is getting quite tiring.
We get it, you people are Herolab zealots and hate WotC. How about we talk about a Paizo Pathfinder digital tool? Which was supposed to be the topic if the thread header is any indication.
The crapping on WotC software for not doing everything every single person can conceive for every single RPG system and hand waving away any problems there are with Hero Lab is getting quite tiring.
We get it, you people are Herolab zealots and hate WotC. How about we talk about a Paizo Pathfinder digital tool? Which was supposed to be the topic if the thread header is any indication.
Wow dude. So I'm "crapping" on WotC for not delivering a GameTable almost two years after it was to be released? Speaking of zealotry...
Why, again, do we lack an "ignore" function?
The crapping on WotC software for not doing everything every single person can conceive for every single RPG system and hand waving away any problems there are with Hero Lab is getting quite tiring.
We get it, you people are Herolab zealots and hate WotC. How about we talk about a Paizo Pathfinder digital tool? Which was supposed to be the topic if the thread header is any indication.Wow dude. So I'm "crapping" on WotC for not delivering a GameTable almost two years after it was to be released?
Talk about your zealotry.
Why don't we have an "ignore" function again?
No, you are crapping on it by finding every possible fault in their subscription service while dismissing any issue with HeroLab.
The crapping on WotC software for not doing everything every single person can conceive for every single RPG system and hand waving away any problems there are with Hero Lab is getting quite tiring.
We get it, you people are Herolab zealots and hate WotC. How about we talk about a Paizo Pathfinder digital tool? Which was supposed to be the topic if the thread header is any indication.Wow dude. So I'm "crapping" on WotC for not delivering a GameTable almost two years after it was to be released? Speaking of zealotry...
Why, again, do we lack an "ignore" function?
I'd just ignore the personal attack. Even though I know we have met at GenCon and my wife and friend have played with you in 4e games there, I know that your not attacking WOTC. It's just an opinion that your sharing.
Just let it roll off your back.
At any rate, HeroLab is not the only software suite or team working character/game tools, if Paizo were to even look at an existing team or suite.
Though if for some unknown reason they were to officially support HeroLab, perhaps they could make the costs associated with Pathfinder from HeroLab's direction less of an impact by including HeroLab's book updates when purchasing the book from Paizo.
I'd just ignore the personal attack. Even though I know we have met at GenCon and my wife and friend have played with you in 4e games there, I know that your not attacking WOTC. It's just an opinion that your sharing.
Just let it roll off your back.
Darn it! Thanks for the kinds words, but now I feel back because I can't place you!
For Paizo's I obviously want a decent character builder but a really decent ap to create a library of NPCs. In fact it would be nice yo be able to share NPC libraries between users.
Of course it would need a decent PRD reference tool and an ap to reference and modify monsters and create and apply templates.
I'd just ignore the personal attack. Even though I know we have met at GenCon and my wife and friend have played with you in 4e games there, I know that your not attacking WOTC. It's just an opinion that your sharing.
Just let it roll off your back.
Darn it! Thanks for the kinds words, but now I feel bad because I can't place you!
Anyway, I think I've been pretty clear: I think the Character Builder is great. But on the other hand there is no denying that DDI has yet to deliver everything that was shown at Gencon 2007.
Don't feel bad. We'll catch up running Pathfinder Society Games at GenCon, I'm sure.
For Paizo's I obviously want a decent character builder but a really decent ap to create a library of NPCs. In fact it would be nice yo be able to share NPC libraries between users.
Of course it would need a decent PRD reference tool and an ap to reference and modify monsters and create and apply templates.
Maybe you have an app that can generate the character/monster and load it up to a Wiki?