So the question is simple, the answer may not be but anyway. How much from a module can we post on a play by post forum? I know quite a few games being run from modules that post NPC information, descriptions, images and maps. The admin of the site recently came down with a ruling that you can't post anything unless it "says show this to players" as far as I am aware most Paizo modules don't have that text anywhere in them.

what if we make this a private forum just for players of the game? 5-6 people or whatever?

what if we make this a private forum just for players of the game? 5-6 people or whatever?

The cumulative affect of people playing modules in open forums would make finding spoilers pretty easy. I don't think it would affect module sales so much as spoil some people's fun.

btw. I use Fantasy Grounds 2 for this and its great.

For strict legal requirements, look at the bottom of the contents page in your module/whatever. This splits down what's OGL and what's Paizo's Intellectual property. These can be used in line with this:

Community Use Policy

I would add that when in doubt err on the side of caution. I would not present my tabletop players with npc stat blocks or monster stat blocks, or any of the other behind the scenes stuff, so I feel no need to do so in a pbp. I would present them with exactly what I would give my home game players, maps and descriptive text.

For strict legal requirements, look at the bottom of the contents page in your module/whatever. This splits down what's OGL and what's Paizo's Intellectual property. These can be used in line with this:

Community Use Policy

Also, please note that while the Community Use Policy specifically allows you to "descriptively reference dialogue, plots, storylines, language, and incidents from products listed in Section 1 of our Community Use Approved Product List at paizo.com/communityuse/products in campaign journals and play-by-post or play-by-email games," it also forbids you from using "artwork, including maps, that have not been published in the blog, although you may create your own interpretations of material presented in our artwork and maps, provided that your interpretations don't look substantially similar to our materials."

I've run play-by-post games, and it doesn't hurt to have the forum locked behind a password, either.

Enlight_Bystand wrote:

For strict legal requirements, look at the bottom of the contents page in your module/whatever. This splits down what's OGL and what's Paizo's Intellectual property. These can be used in line with this:

Community Use Policy

What he said.

Also, please note that while the Community Use Policy specifically allows you to "descriptively reference dialogue, plots, storylines, language, and incidents from products listed in Section 1 of our Community Use Approved Product List at paizo.com/communityuse/products in campaign journals and play-by-post or play-by-email games," it also forbids you from using "artwork, including maps, that have not been published in the blog, although you may create your own interpretations of material presented in our artwork and maps, provided that your interpretations don't look substantially similar to our materials."

So I can't use maps in a private forum? One only the players can see? Isn't that the point of the maps. Not everyone has the lifestyle to be able to play tabletop and not everyone is in areas where it is even possible. I don't see how it is different to play a private game online than a tabletop game. With all of the effects put on top of the maps, its not like anyone can use them for other purposes.

Also as was mentioned, there is no need to post NPC stats or anything, but I do like to use images/portraits. But that isn't allowed either? I just don't understand, if no one else can see them. Why?

What he said.

Also, please note that while the Community Use Policy specifically allows you to "descriptively reference dialogue, plots, storylines, language, and incidents from products listed in Section 1 of our Community Use Approved Product List at paizo.com/communityuse/products in campaign journals and play-by-post or play-by-email games," it also forbids you from using "artwork, including maps, that have not been published in the blog, although you may create your own interpretations of material presented in our artwork and maps, provided that your interpretations don't look substantially similar to our materials."

Thanks to the OP for pointing this out to me.

Vic Wertz wrote:

Enlight_Bystand wrote:

For strict legal requirements, look at the bottom of the contents page in your module/whatever. This splits down what's OGL and what's Paizo's Intellectual property. These can be used in line with this:

Community Use Policy

What he said.

Also, please note that while the Community Use Policy specifically allows you to "descriptively reference dialogue, plots, storylines, language, and incidents from products listed in Section 1 of our Community Use Approved Product List at paizo.com/communityuse/products in campaign journals and play-by-post or play-by-email games," it also forbids you from using "artwork, including maps, that have not been published in the blog, although you may create your own interpretations of material presented in our artwork and maps, provided that your interpretations don't look substantially similar to our materials."

I know the community use policy I was trying to get some clarification. It doesn't seem cut and dry to me and I am sure I am not the only one.

So I can't use maps in a private forum? One only the players can see? Isn't that the point of the maps. Not everyone has the lifestyle to be able to play tabletop and not everyone is in areas where it is even possible. I don't see how it is different to play a private game online than a tabletop game. With all of the effects put on top of the maps, its not like anyone can use them for other purposes.

Also as was mentioned, there is no need to post NPC stats or anything, but I do like to use images/portraits. But that isn't allowed either? I just don't understand, if no one else can see them. Why?

Showing maps on my table or images is generally from the one copy I have and any copies made I can responsibly collect back. Hacking a forum for stuff posted there be it private or public is not that hard. And once its out everyone has it and there is no control on how far or how often it can be copied or distributed. Some how I doubt the hacking scene for maps and character images is that robust but it could happen.

I think Paizo is generous in saying you can interpret their items for your posting purposes but don't post the actual images. They are trying to protect their intellectual property and I can't blame them for that. They seem to bend as much as they can in this area for us their customers.

I think the bottom line is stuff posted in cyberspace is never truly private not like your dining room table, so Paizo takes the steps they need to to protect themselves.

Well I wrote a nice reply, but these crappy forums ate it. So I will say this. Your reasoning is ridiculous. My house can be broken into just as easily and anything can be hacked. To say you are protecting things to the best of your ability should suffice. I am not posting the module, I just want the maps, I can even forgo the argue about the other images. I can describe everything else. I can't describe a grid and for me to have to recreate a grid map is ludicrous. I no longer tabletop game, all of my gaming is online.

Sorry if my reply is a bit raw, the other one was eaten and in a much nicer tone. That's what I get for previewing it and trying to make it sound diplomatic.

I don't think that there are that many hackers out there looking to hack gaming forums and steal copies of PnP RPG maps. That said, Paizo has the responsibility to take efforts to protect their intellectual property, and this is one of those efforts.

I share your frustration guys. Personally, I don't think you can use modules without sharing the maps. Most other stuff might be too much work to use but maps and layouts are organizational.

On the other hand, your homes etc... are not regularly trolled by google to create a catalog of available images for anyone to use.

I think in fairness we have to be aware that this is a problem for a publisher. It may not be as bad as loosing all online game sales but it is their right to control their copyright.

Is your public forum ever purged?
Is it private to just your players?
Do you remove Pathfinder game content from prying eyes? at the end? ever?

All of these are realistic courteous things you can do to support the company, regardless of what content you post.

S

I have a truly private gaming table. Players don't even keep maps etc... unless they are cheating. That's one of the design features of Fantasy Grounds.

I understand Doug Davison (the owner of the program) is trying to work a license out with Pathfinder. It would be a good idea. (hint hint).

We've always said that we don't mind GMs sharing necessary materials with their gaming group. The key phrase there is "with your gaming group," and not "with your gaming group and maybe some random people outside your gaming group who might happen to access your website." Keep it secure. Also, note that passing entire PDFs around, even in private, is *not* ok. After all, when your buddy posts your PDF for the rest of the world to see, it's your personal identifying information that we'll find. (Yes, this has happened—and more than once.)

When it comes to *public* sharing of information, please stick with the Community Use Policy as written.

Well I wrote a nice reply, but these crappy forums ate it. So I will say this. Your reasoning is ridiculous. My house can be broken into just as easily and anything can be hacked. To say you are protecting things to the best of your ability should suffice. I am not posting the module, I just want the maps, I can even forgo the argue about the other images. I can describe everything else. I can't describe a grid and for me to have to recreate a grid map is ludicrous. I no longer tabletop game, all of my gaming is online.

Sorry if my reply is a bit raw, the other one was eaten and in a much nicer tone. That's what I get for previewing it and trying to make it sound diplomatic.

I would point out that even if your forum is secure, you also need to worry about the image host, since most forums don't have resources for hosting large images or other files, and Photobucket or the like are very public.

Customer goodwill\responsibility is really the best prerequisite.

S

I would point out that even if your forum is secure, you also need to worry about the image host, since most forums don't have resources for hosting large images or other files, and Photobucket or the like are very public.

Robert Colwell wrote:

what if we make this a private forum just for players of the game? 5-6 people or whatever?

I think that is the fairer road to take. DMs are going to err on the side of actually using the module. I think its appropriate that online games serve players in them and then disappear.

What about just posting the map as private? That way the rest of the thread is open for reading, but the map artwork remains among the players of the module.

By the way, I am extremely pleased with Paizo's community user policy the availability of pdfs of rule books and the PRD: all of which make me more than happy to contribute financially by subscribing and buying Paizo products. These are the main contributing factors leading me to switching over to Pathfinder (not to mention the artwork and the well thought out rules).

the issue is that paizo makes a lot of their money on the modules and APs. If enough information is given in the PbPs so that someone else can run the game without having bought the material, Paizo ends up losing money. And that is what we call a "Bad Thing".

the issue is that paizo makes a lot of their money on the modules and APs. If enough information is given in the PbPs so that someone else can run the game without having bought the material, Paizo ends up losing money. And that is what we call a "Bad Thing".

Draeke Raefel wrote:

the issue is that paizo makes a lot of their money on the modules and APs. If enough information is given in the PbPs so that someone else can run the game without having bought the material, Paizo ends up losing money. And that is what we call a "Bad Thing".

I don't think it happens often enough to compile the module. Just maps, no statistics. Again, if WotC was fine with it, Paizo should be.

It would hurt me to find that Paizo had become so paranoid that they would take away a beloved feature: Open PbPs, that anybody could visit and watch. Paizo's greatest strength has always been friendliness to its customers.

Suggestion for "PbP" mechanic that'll handle most of the 'this board can be hacked': Just use a simple group email for your group. Don't even use a listserv/group...just copy/paste your "CC" for each email...and you can have a folder to save all previous posts.

Can email also be hacked into? Sure, but if we go down that route, you might as well say 'no electronic data whatsoever'.

Actually that is a good idea. Private the game mechanics and leave the role playing public. It is a valid point that they make their money this way and I don't deny them that. To say that someone else allows it, is not a valid argument. Its their product and their choice. If we can keep it private and be allowed to continue I am happy.

Enlight_Bystand wrote:

For strict legal requirements, look at the bottom of the contents page in your module/whatever. This splits down what's OGL and what's Paizo's Intellectual property. These can be used in line with this:

Community Use Policy

What he said.

Also, please note that while the Community Use Policy specifically allows you to "descriptively reference dialogue, plots, storylines, language, and incidents from products listed in Section 1 of our Community Use Approved Product List at paizo.com/communityuse/products in campaign journals and play-by-post or play-by-email games," it also forbids you from using "artwork, including maps, that have not been published in the blog, although you may create your own interpretations of material presented in our artwork and maps, provided that your interpretations don't look substantially similar to our materials."

Vic Wertz wrote:

Enlight_Bystand wrote:

For strict legal requirements, look at the bottom of the contents page in your module/whatever. This splits down what's OGL and what's Paizo's Intellectual property. These can be used in line with this:

Community Use Policy

What he said.

Also, please note that while the Community Use Policy specifically allows you to "descriptively reference dialogue, plots, storylines, language, and incidents from products listed in Section 1 of our Community Use Approved Product List at paizo.com/communityuse/products in campaign journals and play-by-post or play-by-email games," it also forbids you from using "artwork, including maps, that have not been published in the blog, although you may create your own interpretations of material presented in our artwork and maps, provided that your interpretations don't look substantially similar to our materials."

This is the one that throws me. If I do a map in which every pixel is original, the colour choice is to my own taste, etc., but the buildings on my map are in the same places that they would be on Paizo's map would that be substantially similar? If every 5' square on my map contains the same features would that look substantially similar? I ask because I sincerely want to respect Paizo's intellectual property while running PbPs on this site.

This is the one that throws me. If I do a map in which every pixel is original, the colour choice is to my own taste, etc., but the buildings on my map are in the same places that they would be on Paizo's map would that be substantially similar? If every 5' square on my map contains the same features would that look substantially similar? I ask because I sincerely want to respect Paizo's intellectual property while running PbPs on this site.