Hi, I'm playing in a game this week with a few friends. I'm very familiar with Pathfinder but this is my first time actually playing it.
I pride myself on building characters who are somewhat interesting over the stock archetypes. For this reason I wanted a grappler, something that doesn't seem popular in Pathfinder or even most games. After going through Feat, Classes etc. it was obvious it pretty much had to be a Fighter or Monk. Both offer different pros and cons so I figured I'd ask some advice.
How would you build a Grappler? We are starting at level 1 and as far as I know 15 point buy is allowed. Were not using any special books except the Legacy of Fire PHB, which isn't a big changer.
Ideally this character would have respectable damage output while being able to lock a dangerous opponent down and staying alive. I really have no preferences beyond that and I very much like both the Monk and Fighter classes.
My apologies if this was asked somewhere else, my quick search didn't turn up anything. If you know of a good source of info for my question, please link. :] As much advice as you feel like typing is appreciated and will be read.
I know that you'd mentioned that only the Legacy of Fire book was available, but pointing out the Low Templar (out of the Pathfinder Campaign Sourcebook) is going to be helpful to make a point at the end of the post.
Just have to underscore how good the Dirty Fighting feature is from the Low Templar. Baked into the class feature are several elements that are close to real feats. You get no attack penalty to improvised weapons (like Catch Off-Guard and Throw Anything), and you get +2 to bull rush, disarm, grapple, and trip attempts (like all the improved feats), and along with that you get a really cool critical table to roll on to cause condition effects (several of the critical mastery feats). All of these bonuses are unnamed so they stack.
The rationale of all the above... CMB and CMD is very difficult to modify in the game presently. Perhaps in the future there will be spat books that will give other ways to boost it, but right now there aren't many options. So finding something like the Dirty Fighting from the Low Templar can provide a huge boost.
Taking one level of monk is a huge boost for a grappler. Good saves (needed when the caster dumps a save or die/suck on you), Imp. Unarmed Strike and Imp. Grapple and acrobatics as a class skill. You lose +1 BAB and result in one less on the CMB/CMD power curve, but all of those features are worth it.
You have to carefully manage the skill selection to qualify for the Low Templar (a rank in bluff, ride and know (nobility)), but since you are guaranteed at least one skill point no matter what per level you have time to put the points where they need to be.
Dumping Strength? With an anemic 15 point buy you have to make tradeoffs. If grappling (and ultimately pinning) is the goal, then you don't really need to damage opponents, you just need to make sure you grab and hold them there so the rest of the party can stab away, so Agile maneuvers allows you to funnel all of those points into Dex.
(*)There are two feat tree paths you can take:
Dodge/Mobility/Spring Attack
The first two feats are helpful in terms of grappling as you have another option other than tumbling to move into grab someone, or if you fail your tumble roll then you're covered. Spring Attack isn't that great for this build due to the low strength, but it can open up some options if you're getting bored with just grappling people.
Point Blank/Precise Shot/Rapid Shot or Deadly Aim
Lets face it, you won't always be able to grapple. In that case you need to be able to do something else so use that awesome Dex to shoot things. Rapid Shot and Deadly Aim are about the same in terms of potential boosts to damage, and if you end up combining them together it becomes an awesome blast of firepower.
I was trying to figure out how to work Nimble Moves and Acrobatic Steps into the build, but because they are not combat feats there isn't much room.
In terms of gear, belts of Dex, and ways to get you large are going to be important for a grappler. Having potions of enlarge person on hand will give you a real advantage in grapples. You could also buy the spell as scrolls or wands and give them to another party member to cast for you.
In terms of your grapple power curve, the average CMD for creatures of the Bestiary per CR is:
The above doesn't take into account stat item bonuses, but even so you can see that a tweaked out character still isn't going to have that good of a success rate at grappling, or really any combat maneuver with the current rules. I guess I should clarify that “good” in my book is around 75% success on any given roll. A player ought to feel like they are hitting the “I win!” button when they execute their chosen specialty.
I'd assume this was intentional. The designers didn't want combat maneuvers to dominate the game, so they restructured them so that they follow a more consistent power curve that progressively gets worse as you level up.
So in the end... if you plan on playing low to mid level then a grapple character can be fun, but at higher levels it will become less and less valuable as an ability.
I'd probably go with fighter to optimize a grappler.
Take weapon training (close weapons) and the weapon spec tree for unarmed strike, and you're damage with unarmed attacks--and hence, with grappling--will match that of the monk.
I can't tell if bonuses to unarmed strike attacks will apply to CMB for grapples or not. If it does then fighter is definitely the stronger choice, thanks to the greater weapon focus feat and weapon training ability.
I'll grant that the Monk has some benefits as well, mostly the increased speed and better saves. You can offset the saves for the most part with Lightning Reflexes and Iron Will (although the Monks better wisdom and Still Mind will result in a better Will save regardless). You have the feats to spare for those, and up till 11th level you would only be 1 down in saving throws against an equal level monk without those feats (not counting ability mods).
Fighter will have better AC since you can get by in heavy armors unhindered and even wear a shield too.
Fighter also opens up some nice feat trees such as Spellbreaker and Disruptive, making it much harder for grappled spellcasters to get out of your grapples.
Monk benefits from the Abundant Step feature which helps him close much easier.
Also, monk can benefit much more from the Vital Strike trees, since his base unarmed damage dice is increased rather than just adding bonuses to damage. (e.g. a 12th lvl monk has unarmed damage dice of 2d6 vs the fighters 1d4.)
To clarify the above, take into account the Greater Grapple feat, which you will undoubtedly want. It lets you maintain a grapple as a move action rather than a standard action. This leaves a standard action remaining to either do another grapple attack or to do a regular attack. Since you could only make a single additional attack, the vital strike feats can really up the damage output. Especially for a high level monk with large base damage die. Unfortunately for the monk, he could never get Greater Vital Strike, and won't qualify for Improved Vital Strike until 15th level, so he can only go so far with that.
So theres a lot of tradeoffs to be had between a grappling fighter or grappling monk.
A mix of the classes might not be a bad idea. Two to four levels of monk can add a lot to a grappling fighter build. Say four levels of monk and the rest fighter; the monk levels give for free Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, and 2 monk bonus feats (including Improved Grapple), as well as evasion (if in light armor), flurry of blows, Still Mind, nice save boosts, the Ki pool so that your unarmed attacks strike as magic as well as the other uses of it, and of course a nice increase in unarmed strike damage (1d8 compared to the fighters 1d3). Plus more class skills and 2 more skill points per level. I wouldn't take more monk levels than that since your BAB would take another hit. Compared to four additional levels of fighter you would only get 2 bonus feats (more than compensated for), average of 4 additional hps, and a +1 BAB, plus faster advancement of weapon training and qualifying for fighter only feats.
So maybe go Fighter at 1st level, then four levels of monk, then the rest into fighter. Best race choices would be human, half-elf, or half-orc for the +2 to Strength. Attributes would be ranked in order of importance as Str (by far), Dex, Con, Wis, Int, Cha. You can start off wearing heavier armors, but as your Dex goes up from items eventually move into light armor to take advantage of evasion. You can also use a shield with no penalty. You'll forego some of the monk special abilities due to the armor use (the speed and AC bonuses), but it will be worth it. Pick up Improved Grapple with the first level of monk, then get Greater Grapple at 7th level. You can make good use of Vital Strike + Greater Grapple thanks to the d8 base damage from the monk levels. Also get all the unarmed strike feats you can, weapon focus, improved crit, weapon spec, etc.
Some good things to think about. I actually talked to my GM this morning and were doing 4d6 stat creation, because everyone realized Point Buy is horrible. If I remember I'm working with 18, 16, 16,, 14, 11 and 9, so much better overall.
Multi-classing is worth looking into and I already had. I wish Flurry of Blows was kept in armor because that would be a great fall back position when Grappling goes south.
I'm basically wanting Grapple to lock down Casters, as a lot of Caster NPCs have a bad CMD for their CR. This makes Fighter attractive because of the Spellbreaker feats. We also have a Rogue in group and I'd like to help him with getting worry free shanks as he's a heavy glass cannon build.
Beyond those two instances, I don't see myself grappling insanely often. If the situation calls for it, it's nice to have in the bag of tricks but I'd still like to have a more direct Beat Down Button.
If there's anymore advice I'm all ears. I wish I knew if we had any magic in the group because that can kind of swing things between Monk and Fighter depending on what's available.
I didn't really see in the Flurry of Blows description a requirement about wearing armor. It looks as if a monk wearing full plate could flurry of blows as easily as a monk in a bathrobe could.
Its not under the Flurry of Blows description but rather under the Weapon and Armor Proficiency:
PFRD wrote:
When wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, a monk loses his AC bonus, as well as his fast movement and flurry of blows abilities.
Just rage, use Strength Surge (The barbarian adds her barbarian level on one Strength check or combat maneuver check) and after you have the enemy save in your chokehold end the rage.
If he manage to escape in the following two rounds, just rage again and go get him...
I realize this might not be what you're looking for (since you've already commented about monks and fighters), but a wildshaping Druid built around grappling can do insane things. This is something you won't really be able to do well til you get Wildshape, but i wanted all your options on the table.
I mean using pounce (Dire Tiger form) to charge w/ full attack, then grab whichever of your opponents you wish... then (if that weren't enough), handle that grappled foe like a rag-doll while you continue to make full attacks on the remaining opponents...
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