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(Paizo Charter Superscriber, Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber)

I see that Pathfinder has done a great job of taking the OGL material and running with it.

However, I'm having trouble finding what they're doing with one bit of crunch - all of the OGL stuff for deities.

Now, I don't have Gods & Magic, but I looked into it carefully before deciding not to purchase it, and near as I can tell it ignores all of that material (the stuff about Divine Rank, etc.).

Is there some plan to cover that material? I don't just ask out of curiosity; I'm planning on writing up some stuff for one of the Open Design projects, and I'd really really like to avoid writing something that would go directly counter to the direction Pathfinder is going.

Some guidance here would be really really keen :)


gbonehead wrote:

I see that Pathfinder has done a great job of taking the OGL material and running with it.

However, I'm having trouble finding what they're doing with one bit of crunch - all of the OGL stuff for deities.

Now, I don't have Gods & Magic, but I looked into it carefully before deciding not to purchase it, and near as I can tell it ignores all of that material (the stuff about Divine Rank, etc.).

Is there some plan to cover that material? I don't just ask out of curiosity; I'm planning on writing up some stuff for one of the Open Design projects, and I'd really really like to avoid writing something that would go directly counter to the direction Pathfinder is going.

Some guidance here would be really really keen :)

I believe they are going the direct opposite route that others have gone, where it is no longer their intent nor desire to stat out gods anymore. They figure the gods are gods, and if the players want to kill them, then their GM should come up with a means of doing so, rather than stating out such beings.

In other words, they don't want to stat gods because they dislike the notion of killing a god. When you create stats for something someone out there wants to kill it.

To date there is only one god statted, and that is the god of the Red Mantis Assassin Organization. I doubt they plan on stating any of the major ones, like Zon Kuthon or Serenrae.


If I recall mortals do not have the power to kill a god. Few things have that power. The one stated up is a demi-god and is killable , but most gods are outside the realm of mortals being able to harm much less kill them


Basically, the Gods generally have whatever stats they need, so there's no point in writing them up. It only leads to discussing those stats, and "Well, this goddess shouldn't have that score, compared to that one, because..."

The Gods are a whole other level of being and thus aren't bound by mortal limits, which is, after all, what attribute scores represent.

(Paizo Charter Superscriber, Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber)

This really has nothing to do with "killing the gods".

Think more along the lines of the last Demonicon of Iggwilv article in The Dragon, where there were guidelines for creating demon princes.

Shadow Lodge (Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Battles Case Subscriber)

gbonehead wrote:

This really has nothing to do with "killing the gods".

Think more along the lines of the last Demonicon of Iggwilv article in The Dragon, where there were guidelines for creating demon princes.

Demon Princes and Devils I think are part of a different line of materials Paizo is producing (most recently with their Devil's book). I could be very wrong, but I don't think what you're asking about here (designing demon princes) has anything to do with the way they're handling deities.

Shadow Lodge (Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Battles Case Subscriber)

gbonehead wrote:

This really has nothing to do with "killing the gods".

Think more along the lines of the last Demonicon of Iggwilv article in The Dragon, where there were guidelines for creating demon princes.

Well hey look at that...

James Jacobs wrote:
We're actually not sure what we're gonna do with the demon lords and their ilk. Frankly, I'd like to set them up as the end bosses and monsters you'd fight when you get to 30th level (so they'll be like CR 28–CR 32 or thereabouts). Not really all that useful to stat them up yet until we get around to doing an epic level book.


It's like that:

Everything beyond demigod level just doesn't have stats. They're basically invincible against everything beyond that level. Anything that involves taking on an actual god will need some work on the GM's part - which is fine, because he'll already have to come up with something sufficiently epic about how the characters can even hope to challenge a god.

And the gods don't just fight each other in the way a mortal would understand, so they don't need stats for that, either.

Note that everything below full-fledged deity can have stats and can be killed by mortals.

Basically, nascent "super-outsiders" (i.e. archfiends, archcelestials, and the like) will be CR 21-25 (yes, the strongest dragons, as well as solar angels, are in that league as well - they can be a threat even to a fledgeling archfiend).

Actual, full-fledged "super-outsiders" (whatever they're called) as well as demigods have a CR of 26 and up. For example, Achaekek (He Who Walks in Blood, The Mantis God, assassin for the gods and patron deity of the Red Mantis assassins' guild.) has a CR of 30 (and a full stat write-up!), and the known demon lords range from 26 (example: Areshkagal, The Faceless Spinx, female demon lord of portals and riddles) to 32 (example: Dagon, The Shadow in the Sea, demon lord of the sea and sea monsters).

(Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Tales Subscriber)

I agree with their decision to revert to the AD&D2E concept that (IIRC) avatars may have stats, but gods are virtually omniscient and invulnerable in their own planes of existence. The way gods were handled has changed a lot since Gary's OD&D. I think I read that in the beginning, gods were not meant to be any different from very powerful mortals. Things just changed a lot with the various edition swaps.
Personally I found 3E's Faiths and Avatars horrendous. After the three Forgotten Realms 2E deities books (faiths and avatars, powers and patheons and the other one) that set a new standard of quality (man those were AMAZING) having to read such a book more than half filled with useless stats was a huge disappointment. I really like the Pathfinder Adventure Paths articles on the major religions, I think they definitely hit the right spot. Even though more spells and more game material would be nice to read.

That said I also really hope they make an Epic Level handbook. I would be glad to see how they will handle this burning coal. The original one was definitely too ver the top for my taste, but I guess there was a lot of unexplored potential. Not that I have many 21st level characters, but those few I'd like to give some extra depth.

And for Demon Lords... well they've always been a different kind. I thing they should have stats, after all.


Beek Gwenders of Croodle wrote:
I think I read that in the beginning, gods were not meant to be any different from very powerful mortals. Things just changed a lot with the various edition swaps.

I'd say it's as much a world thing as it is a rules thing. Probably more world than rules.

If you prefer the gods to be just powerful mortals, go ahead and stat them out as regular 30-level characters.

Beek Gwenders of Croodle wrote:


And for Demon Lords... well they've always been a different kind. I thing they should have stats, after all.

They could have. They get challenge ratings. All you need is someone making up the stats.


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