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KnightErrantJR,
I plan on giving my current players a grandfather clause on any abilities which are not seriously broken that significantly affects player builds. This and the sorcerer claws fall into this category, there are likely more things. I suggest you talk to your GM about it, he's likely to be reasonable about it unless it's Organized Play.
Huh, I'd really like to hear the rationale behind taking the proficiency away. I know some people had problems with CoDzilla or whatever, but this just seems to be a kick in the nuts to the sort of cleric who serves as backup get-hit-by-things work the fighter type usually does.
And given the paladin with notoriously bad HP rolls in one of my games, makes me glad my DM's probably gonna agree that we're not updating to that particular rule with my own cleric.
KnightErrantJR,
I plan on giving my current players a grandfather clause on any abilities which are not seriously broken that significantly affects player builds. This and the sorcerer claws fall into this category, there are likely more things. I suggest you talk to your GM about it, he's likely to be reasonable about it unless it's Organized Play.
Ironically, he's probably more okay with grandfathering it in than I am. It just bugs me thematically, from how I built the guy (I'm playing in Legacy of Fire, and part of his resistance to heat was from forcing himself to wear heavy armor and go out in the sun as a cleric of Sarenrae).
If he's okay with it, though, I might see if I can pay for my heavy armor proficiency with my next feat, so it sits right in my brain.
Whoa that's a change! For the good IMO but where did you see that?Did I read it right? Did Cleric's really loose heavy armor?
Just double checking but it's omitted from the cleric entry and the Heavy Armor Proficiency feat also says "Fighters and Paladins get Heavy Armor Proficiency as a bonus feat". If it were omitted from one place then maybe it was an oversight, omitted from both? Seems pretty solidly out.
Just double checking but it's omitted from the cleric entry and the Heavy Armor Proficiency feat also says "Fighters and Paladins get Heavy Armor Proficiency as a bonus feat". If it were omitted from one place then maybe it was an oversight, omitted from both? Seems pretty solidly out.
Hmm...
I honestly don't know whether to like this change or not; I mean, as a player of clerics, it really doesn't bother me at all. But I can imagine a LOT of people are going to be very upset about it.
Still. I think I like it.
In a vacuum, I could probably understand the reasoning. The problem is, many, many changes that would have been logical "in a vacuum" were not implemented because of not only backwards compatibility with 3.5, but because of D&D tradition.
It seems like, if you can throw out backwards compatibility and tradition in this case, then there were a few other places where you could apply the same logic.
Staff sling is like they were reading my mind... I was planning on having a bunch of goblins using staff slings to heave terra cotta pots of alchmists fire! Woot!Your gobos will have to take exotic weapon prof to get it. Unless they are half-blins or is the half-gobs? Really... if orc/ humans cross why wouldn't there be...
Well (trade marks aside) I prefer Gobbits ;-)
Just double checking but it's omitted from the cleric entry and the Heavy Armor Proficiency feat also says "Fighters and Paladins get Heavy Armor Proficiency as a bonus feat". If it were omitted from one place then maybe it was an oversight, omitted from both? Seems pretty solidly out.Hmm...
I honestly don't know whether to like this change or not; I mean, as a player of clerics, it really doesn't bother me at all. But I can imagine a LOT of people are going to be very upset about it.
Still. I think I like it.
Well with medium armor getting a boost I don't think it's so bad.
Has anyone posted the ECL races? I noticed this on page 406, but didn't happen to see whether anyone has already posted about this. They very much imply that certain races lose their +1 ECL and that some have been lowered to +1. I don't know if I'm allowed to post which ones changed or not.
They got rid of ECLs and LAs entirely and expect GMs to do the balancing themselves it seems.
I'm torn because I hated the LA system, but my preferred fix was to start every thing someone might want to play as as an LA +0 and build on it from there to increase it's CR
Goblings, Goblin/halflings...nasty little knee biters.
Hmmm, well those clerics can always take Heavy Armor as a feat if they really want to...or perhaps it could be part of a war gods bonus feat? I mean Gorum wears platemail right, so should his priests...
But then again, the MEDIUM armors did get a +1 AC boost...(though the picture of the banded mail is just...ugh...NOT BANDED MAIL! My one complaint is the armor artwork...wish they had nerw art commisioned for armor, the card art doesn't work for me.)
Goblings, Goblin/halflings...nasty little knee biters.
Hmmm, well those clerics can always take Heavy Armor as a feat if they really want to...or perhaps it could be part of a war gods bonus feat? I mean Gorum wears platemail right, so should his priests...
But then again, the MEDIUM armors did get a +1 AC boost...(though the picture of the banded mail is just...ugh...NOT BANDED MAIL! My one complaint is the armor artwork...wish they had nerw art commisioned for armor, the card art doesn't work for me.)
Yes, well full plate got a +1 AC boost too so if I were a cleric I wouldn't feel any better in my new +6 AC breastplate when full plate is sitting at +9 AC (especially since clerics don't usually prioritize dexterity as a high stat).
Yes, well full plate got a +1 AC boost too so if I were a cleric I wouldn't feel any better in my new +6 AC breastplate when full plate is sitting at +9 AC.Goblings, Goblin/halflings...nasty little knee biters.
Hmmm, well those clerics can always take Heavy Armor as a feat if they really want to...or perhaps it could be part of a war gods bonus feat? I mean Gorum wears platemail right, so should his priests...
But then again, the MEDIUM armors did get a +1 AC boost...(though the picture of the banded mail is just...ugh...NOT BANDED MAIL! My one complaint is the armor artwork...wish they had nerw art commisioned for armor, the card art doesn't work for me.)
Maybe they should reduce the cleric to a d4 for hit points too, can't nerf the class enough.
((The armor thing is in there they did not change the hit die type, that is me pointing out how overwhelming anti-cleric this edition is.))
I was wondering how long it would take for someone to notice this change. The cleric armor proficiencies list is correct. Since I am at Gencon right now, typing this on my phone, I am not going to go into all the details, but let me assure you that this was probably one of the hardest decisions I had to make. The cleric needed this change to help balance it out a bit.
I will be happy to discuss this more after the show, so until then, let's just shelve this discussion.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I've pretty much vented as much as I am going to, right now, about this. James explained the logic, in another thread, for this change, and I actually understand it, in theory, divorced from the stated design goals. It makes sense.
On the other hand, the fact that I can burn a feat to get the ability back not only kills one of my brand new feats, but it also cuts into feats that now kind of feel like I want my cleric to have, that didn't exist before, such as Selective Channeling.
Yes, well full plate got a +1 AC boost too so if I were a cleric I wouldn't feel any better in my new +6 AC breastplate when full plate is sitting at +9 AC (especially since clerics don't usually prioritize dexterity as a high stat).Goblings, Goblin/halflings...nasty little knee biters.
Hmmm, well those clerics can always take Heavy Armor as a feat if they really want to...or perhaps it could be part of a war gods bonus feat? I mean Gorum wears platemail right, so should his priests...
But then again, the MEDIUM armors did get a +1 AC boost...(though the picture of the banded mail is just...ugh...NOT BANDED MAIL! My one complaint is the armor artwork...wish they had nerw art commisioned for armor, the card art doesn't work for me.)
Oh wait, I do a play a cleric! Doh! He worships Gorum too. I suppose it's -1 feat for my character too.
I know that some people are bound to be rankled by some rules, and I'm not passing judgment on that.
Just as a favor to all of us, start a new thread if you are going to discuss a single, already revealed rule at length!
Thanks very much!
I suppose but enough people decided to gloat I thought it wise to point out how destructive such talk is.
@Thurgon
I know that some people are bound to be rankled by some rules, and I'm not passing judgment on that.
Just as a favor to all of us, start a new thread if you are going to discuss a single, already revealed rule at length!
Thanks very much!
I'm done with any commentary, and I apologize if my comments drag this thread off any, so for what its worth, please move on from this.
Also, Jason as indicated, above, that he doesn't wish this topic further discussed until after Gen Con, so I would assume that would also mean that he doesn't particularly want another thread devoted to the rule either.
Just one request: Can you repeat every word in the book, in order?
Failing that, a few quick questions:
Bards' versatile performance: Do you get "redundant" skill points back?
New weapons, especially racial ones: Well, what is there? Does everyone get something out of his weapon familiarity?
Halfling sling staff - 1d6s/ 1d8 medium, can be used as a club (I wonder if enchanting it would affect both melee and ranged or would you enchant the two separately? Do masterwork sling staffs cost +600gp? Weapon Focus (Sling Staff) buys you ranged and melee bonus?)
Elven Curved Sword (bastard sword but threatens on 18-20)
Gnome Hooked Hammer
Orc Double Axe
Dwarven Urgosh and Waraxe So pretty much everyone is covered... the only really interesting one is the sling staff.
So we get an SRD Hoopak for the halflings yea!
So is the elven curved sword 1d10/18-20 x2 use two handed normally, 1 handed EWP? I'd prefer 1d8 myself.
Reminds me of the release of 4.0, those who liked the game gloated, and still do. Those who saw it as a betrayal of D&D vented and for the most part still do. Glad you could show us how to start the edition wars all over again.I am so happy right nowDid Cleric's really loose heavy armor?Yes,that is what I saw when I looked at the Cleric section. It's on page 39.
How is my post any different then others saying they liked this or that? I posted many times in the cleric threads for this change, so your damned right I am happy. It's not an attack it's a statement of my joy that my feed back was taken into account like many other's
As for it hurting BC that's bull. Run stats as they are, if you need to fix stats use one of the new feats they now get and give them the feat.
Just one request: Can you repeat every word in the book, in order?
Failing that, a few quick questions:
Bards' versatile performance: Do you get "redundant" skill points back?
New weapons, especially racial ones: Well, what is there? Does everyone get something out of his weapon familiarity?
Halfling sling staff - 1d6s/ 1d8 medium, can be used as a club (I wonder if enchanting it would affect both melee and ranged or would you enchant the two separately? Do masterwork sling staffs cost +600gp? Weapon Focus (Sling Staff) buys you ranged and melee bonus?)
Elven Curved Sword (bastard sword but threatens on 18-20)
Gnome Hooked Hammer
Orc Double Axe
Dwarven Urgosh and Waraxe So pretty much everyone is covered... the only really interesting one is the sling staff.
So we get an SRD Hoopak for the halflings yea!
So is the elven curved sword 1d10/18-20 x2 use two handed normally, 1 handed EWP? I'd prefer 1d8 myself.
No, it's a two handed weapon only but can be finessed.
I suppose but enough people decided to gloat I thought it wise to point out how destructive such talk is.
I think there's a large difference between Seeker's comments and gloating, is it really fair to condemn someone for simply saying they are pleased with a change? It's not as if it had a very "HA! In your face!" feel to it or anything.
As for the racial weapons, the sling staff is really an awesome and interesting addition. The curved sword on the other hand, interesting to have a two handed finesse weapon to contrast with a spiked chain. Does that mean though that, unlike a bastard sword it can't be used as a martial weapon with some penalty?
I suppose but enough people decided to gloat I thought it wise to point out how destructive such talk is.I think there's a large difference between Seeker's comments and gloating, is it really fair to condemn someone for simply saying they are pleased with a change? It's not as if it had a very "HA! In your face!" feel to it or anything.
As for the racial weapons, the sling staff is really an awesome and interesting addition. The curved sword on the other hand, interesting to have a two handed finesse weapon to contrast with a spiked chain. Does that mean though that, unlike a bastard sword it can't be used as a martial weapon with some penalty?
That's correct it's a two handed weapon only, like a spiked chain.
That sounds...weird.
A two-handed only weapon but can be finessed??
I always think only one-handed and light weapon can be finessed.
Elven Court Blades from 3.5 were two handed elven weapons that could be finessed. These don't have exactly the same stats, but they are the same concept, a larger elven sword that a dexterous wielder can still use to full effect.
No, it's a two handed weapon only but can be finessed.That sounds...weird.
A two-handed only weapon but can be finessed??
I always think only one-handed and light weapon can be finessed.
Spiked Chain is the same. The elven courtblade from 3.5 was also that way and I'm sure that's where the elven curved blade comes from.
Also - what are the rules on item creation in the final? Same as beta?
Generally the same, but that's a pretty broad question. I'd have to compare item creation feats, normal item creation rules, intelligent item creation rules, and the cursed item section to see if it matches up and that's a bit much for my laziness.
I can tell that the general ideas Jason had for intelligent items and cursed items are there, but some balancing adjustments have been made (once again based on feedback it looks like).
Reminds me of the release of 4.0, those who liked the game gloated, and still do. Those who saw it as a betrayal of D&D vented and for the most part still do. Glad you could show us how to start the edition wars all over again.I am so happy right nowDid Cleric's really loose heavy armor?Yes,that is what I saw when I looked at the Cleric section. It's on page 39.How is my post any different then others saying they liked this or that? I posted many times in the cleric threads for this change, so your damned right I am happy. It's not an attack it's a statement of my joy that my feed back was taken into account like many other's
As for it hurting BC that's bull. Run stats as they are, if you need to fix stats use one of the new feats they now get and give them the feat.
But this isn't a thread for debating the value of the new games rules, that wasn't the purpose of it. You decided it was and acted thusly. It was a thread to put in noticed changes. If you want it to go down in flames, fine, but remember you're the one who is starting that. I will be happy to add to the flames though, I am simply respecting that right now people want to know things about the new game and allowing them to find it without the flames you seem to desire.
But this isn't a thread for debating the value of the new games rules, that wasn't the purpose of it. You decided it was and acted thusly. It was a thread to put in noticed changes. If you want it to go down in flames, fine, but remember you're the one who is starting that. I will be happy to add to the flames though, I am simply respecting that right now people want to know things about the new game and allowing them to find it without the flames you seem to desire.
Now really this is getting kind of ridiculous, saying 'Oh I'm happy with that' is really a far cry from 'debating game rules' and honestly it seems like you're the one who intended to start something by turning his mild comment into something, apparently, intended to start a riot. This really needs to be taken to PM's or something, add to the flames! But do it secretly...
On the topic though, the healing domain's 6th level power sure did give it a mighty boost from 3.5. Does that power have any sort of uses per day cap on it?
But this isn't a thread for debating the value of the new games rules, that wasn't the purpose of it. You decided it was and acted thusly. It was a thread to put in noticed changes. If you want it to go down in flames, fine, but remember you're the one who is starting that. I will be happy to add to the flames though, I am simply respecting that right now people want to know things about the new game and allowing them to find it without the flames you seem to desire.Now really this is getting kind of ridiculous, saying 'Oh I'm happy with that' is really a far cry from 'debating game rules' and honestly it seems like you're the one who intended to start something by turning his mild comment into something, apparently, intended to start a riot. This really needs to be taken to PM's or something, add to the flames! But do it secretly...
It does, but you seem to want to keep it going here. Be my guest. If fanning the flames is your game go for it. I am eager for it.
Ironically, he's probably more okay with grandfathering it in than I am. It just bugs me thematically, from how I built the guy (I'm playing in Legacy of Fire, and part of his resistance to heat was from forcing himself to wear heavy armor and go out in the sun as a cleric of Sarenrae).
@KnightErrant: Suiting up in Breastplate/ Banded Mail/ etc under a sweltering desert sun will still probably work to get you all sweaty and hallucinating.
And if you're in the mood to play a Platemail Cleritank, it's not like eating a Feat is your only option: Taking a level of Fighter or Paladin doesn't seem too bad an idea, with either a free Combat Feat or Lay on Hands and +2 all Saves ON TOP of Heavy Armor + Tower Shield goodness.
I have to say the Rogue Crawl Talent, also allowing 5' steps while prone is a very nice touch.
But this isn't a thread for debating the value of the new games rules, that wasn't the purpose of it. You decided it was and acted thusly. It was a thread to put in noticed changes. If you want it to go down in flames, fine, but remember you're the one who is starting that. I will be happy to add to the flames though, I am simply respecting that right now people want to know things about the new game and allowing them to find it without the flames you seem to desire.Now really this is getting kind of ridiculous, saying 'Oh I'm happy with that' is really a far cry from 'debating game rules' and honestly it seems like you're the one who intended to start something by turning his mild comment into something, apparently, intended to start a riot. This really needs to be taken to PM's or something, add to the flames! But do it secretly...
On the topic though, the healing domain's 6th level power sure did give it a mighty boost from 3.5. Does that power have any sort of uses per day cap on it?
No, the wording is ALL cure spells heal 50% more than normal (but this doesn't stack with the Empower feat).
No, the wording is ALL cure spells heal 50% more than normal (but this doesn't stack with the Empower feat).
Does it apply to Channel Energy though?
I don't really see a problem giving up other Domains, which are hugely powerful/useful, to be good at SURVIVING (essentially) is fine by me. If Healing Domain DIDN'T make you really good at Healing, who would ever take it? Just take Luck/Travel/Strength/etc and some Extra Channel Energy Feats and Selective Channel.
I do recall people asking in older threads about Damage Reduction and how silver and say a +1 sword works. Well they do have a chart on page 562 that lays it out.
Basically to overcome silver/cold iron DR takes more then a +1 sword, it takes a +3 one. To overcome adamantine DR it takes a +4, and to overcome alginment based DR takes a +5.
So basically the way I read it a +5 sword will overcome all DR with the exception of /- like fighters can get or admantine plate gives.
But this isn't a thread for debating the value of the new games rules, that wasn't the purpose of it. You decided it was and acted thusly. It was a thread to put in noticed changes. If you want it to go down in flames, fine, but remember you're the one who is starting that. I will be happy to add to the flames though, I am simply respecting that right now people want to know things about the new game and allowing them to find it without the flames you seem to desire.
Yes it is. More then me have done just that. Hell my comment was nothing worse then what has been said many times one this thread.."I don't like that...I like that change...I will be house ruling that" and so on
Anyhow thanks for the spoilers all
I have to say I am liking over all. The death of overhand chop will mess with my players but it was way over used so I have no issue with it being gone.
over all nothing I outright hate so far, more then a few things that make me happy to hear of them