Spirited Charge:

Benefit: When mounted and using the charge action, you deal double damage with a melee weapon (or triple damage with a lance).

Mounted Skirmisher:

Benefit: If your mount moves its speed or less, you can

still take a full-attack action.

Paladin's smite does twice his level in bonus damage, and he adds his Charisma bonus to his attack rolls.

At level 20, the paladin is going to have an attack bonus when smiting equal to about +37. Assuming that he has a +5 weapon, a 26 Strength (a little low), and an 18 Charisma (also low). Using Power Attack, it's going to drop to +31 (for a total full attack sequence of +31/+31/+26/+21/+16).

Now, a balor has an AC of 36 and 370 HP. The paladin, upon smiting him, is going to do 1d8 + 40 (smite) + 18 (PA) + 5 (weapon) + 12 (two-handed Strength bonus) damage, for an average of ~80 damage on an attack. Combine this with Spirited Charge and you're going to get a ridiculous 240 damage.

Unfortunately, with Mounted Skirmisher, the paladin can make a full attack when his mount moves less than its total speed. So have it charge the balor and the paladin gets a delicious full attack with all the benefits of Spirited Charge. So, yeah, he's doing 240 damage per attack against the balor. Assuming five attacks with a weapon of speed, and you can see where there might be a problem here.

Against the balor, the paladin is going to do an average of 192 + 192 + 132 + 72 + 12 damage in the full attack sequence, or a whopping 600 damage, slaughtering the balor to shreds.

Problem? Maybe.

The power of charge builds has been known for a long time. You forgot to add in A Valorous weapon, too.

It's also why you don't stand in front of a knight bearing down at you with a lance!

==Aelryinth

I was just using Paizo products to prove my point because people would otherwise make the excuse that "of course it's unbalanced, you're using non-Paizo material!"

You can't use the charge action and the full attack action at the same time. Both are full-round actions. The mounted skirmisher benefit only allows you to use the full attack action in conjunction with your mount's move actions, not with a second full-round action of your own.

Mounted Skirmisher: if you move your mount's speed or less, then you can use the full attack action.
Charge from short distance: moving your mount's speed or less.

Thus, if charge from short distance, then make a full attack.

I would have to say you cannot charge/full attack all in one. You either get one attack at charge damage or you can do the full attack. The advantage of the feat is to allow you all of your attacks after your mount gets you there. Maybe a kind DM would allow the first hit to be charge damage, but I do not believe that is RAW per the quoted actions above.

And yes. A Paladin charging with a lance targeting one of his big bad evil foes is going to do a TON of damage. But keep in mind the smite damage is only doubled on the first hit.

Your going to need to find a way to work pounce into that build for that trick to work :)

didn't smite get erratt'd so that double damage is only on 1st hit?

do you get the charging bonus' on attacks after the 1st?

then theres the whole 20th level "Whenever she uses smite evil and successfully strikes an evil outsider, the outsider is also subject to a banishment, using her paladin level as the caster level (her weapon and holy symbol automatically count as objects that the subject hates). After the banishment effect and the damage from the attack is resolved, the smite immediately ends."

so either you banish the balor and don't get to kill it, or you're banish fails and smite is ended. (by RAW)

edit: partially ninja'd

didn't smite get erratt'd so that double damage is only on 1st hit?

WHAT

This thread makes kittens sad.

This thread makes kittens sad.

Why's that?

Paladins do not get nice things. :)

Mounted Skirmisher: if you move your mount's speed or less, then you can use the full attack action.

Charge from short distance: moving your mount's speed or less.

Thus, if charge from short distance, then make a full attack.

Charge is a full round action which means you can't full attack when you charge. You could charge for 3x damage at full BAB with a lance OR you could take your full attack action and maybe do more damage but you're more likely to hit that one big charge than hit on every attack with iterative attacks, but you can't do both.

I know it's kind of counter intuitive but think of the game in terms of actions. You get 1 five foot step as a free action if you don't take a move action to move. You can take a standard and a move action, two move actions, or one full round action. Charging is a full round action and full attacking is a full round action so you can't do both on the same round because that is like having two turns.

Hope that makes sense.
Cheers.

Page 60
In the Smite Evil paladin class feature, change the fourth
sentence of the first paragraph to read as follows.
If the target of smite evil is an outsider with the evil
subtype, an evil-aligned dragon, or an undead creature,
the bonus to damage on the first successful attack
increases to 2 points of damage per level the paladin
possesses.

from

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/resources

Ah, interesting. But he still gets bonus damage equal to his level on the rest of his attacks, yes? That's still a sizable damage boost.

Page 60

In the Smite Evil paladin class feature, change the fourth
sentence of the first paragraph to read as follows.
If the target of smite evil is an outsider with the evil
subtype, an evil-aligned dragon, or an undead creature,
the bonus to damage on the first successful attack
increases to 2 points of damage per level the paladin
possesses.

from

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/resources

also with a +5 weapon and str 1 1/2 from a lance, i get 241.5(avg) damage on the 1st hit

18 (pa)
12(str)
40(smite)
5.5(avg of a d10)
5(enchantment)

80.5x3=241.5, not the 192 you quoted. even without a +5 weapon its 226.5

Ah, interesting. But he still gets bonus damage equal to his level on the rest of his attacks, yes? That's still a sizable damage boost.

Yes, but it's not like the Paladin is unique in being able to do this. A non-APG Fighter Archer can deal about 80% of a balor's health in damage in a single round, reliably win initiative against that balor, and and reliably beat that balor's perception vs stealth (both the fighter's stealth vs the balor's perception and vice versa). I imagine with all the archery boosts I'm hearing about from the APG it'd be possible to get all the way to 100%.

Ah, interesting. But he still gets bonus damage equal to his level on the rest of his attacks, yes? That's still a sizable damage boost.

except smite ends after the 1st attack at 20th level (see my earlier post)

"Whenever she uses smite evil and successfully strikes an evil outsider, the outsider is also subject to a banishment, using her paladin level as the caster level (her weapon and holy symbol automatically count as objects that the subject hates). After the banishment effect and the damage from the attack is resolved, the smite immediately ends."

you get 1 smite, then the banishment automatically happens (never gives a choice). and then smite goes bye-bye

Reread the corrected Holy Champion.

Holy Champion (Su): At 20th level, a paladin becomes a
conduit for the power of her god. Her DR increases to 10/
evil. Whenever she uses smite evil and successfully strikes
an evil outsider, the outsider is also subject to a banishment,
using her paladin level as the caster level (her weapon
and holy symbol automatically count as objects that the
subject hates). After the banishment effect and the damage
from the attack is resolved, the smite immediately ends. In
addition, whenever she channels positive energy or uses
lay on hands to heal a creature, she heals the maximum
possible amount.

Your plan actually has a better chance of working with a 19th level paladin!

EDIT: Ninja'd!

Tomathy Jones wrote:

Ah, interesting. But he still gets bonus damage equal to his level on the rest of his attacks, yes? That's still a sizable damage boost.

except smite ends after the 1st attack at 20th level (see my earlier post)

"Whenever she uses smite evil and successfully strikes an evil outsider, the outsider is also subject to a banishment, using her paladin level as the caster level (her weapon and holy symbol automatically count as objects that the subject hates). After the banishment effect and the damage from the attack is resolved, the smite immediately ends."

you get 1 smite, then the banishment automatically happens (never gives a choice). and then smite goes bye-bye

That is great. You charge with rideby attack at 2X pally level and if you don't banish it you smite again so you get 2x instead of just pally level to damage. How many balors you going to fight in 1 day?

That is great. You charge with rideby attack at 2X pally level and if you don't banish it you smite again

You'd need a second swift action there, unless you activated the smite the previous round.

grasshopper_ea wrote:

That is great. You charge with rideby attack at 2X pally level and if you don't banish it you smite again

You'd need a second swift action there, unless you activated the smite the previous round.

You get a second swift action when you get your second turn, then you charge again unless it was dumb enough to move up for you to full attack it rather than running for the hills.

Name Violation wrote:

Tomathy Jones wrote:

Ah, interesting. But he still gets bonus damage equal to his level on the rest of his attacks, yes? That's still a sizable damage boost.

except smite ends after the 1st attack at 20th level (see my earlier post)

"Whenever she uses smite evil and successfully strikes an evil outsider, the outsider is also subject to a banishment, using her paladin level as the caster level (her weapon and holy symbol automatically count as objects that the subject hates). After the banishment effect and the damage from the attack is resolved, the smite immediately ends."

you get 1 smite, then the banishment automatically happens (never gives a choice). and then smite goes bye-bye

That is great. You charge with rideby attack at 2X pally level and if you don't banish it you smite again so you get 2x instead of just pally level to damage. How many balors you going to fight in 1 day?

well there are a few problems with that.

1, why is the balor just standing there in the first place? it shouldn't be dumb enough to just be standing in a plac a pally can just run up to it. since it can fly, teleport, and a bunch of other things.

2, smite is a swift action, so only 1 "casting" per round

3, a balor could just take out the horse and not worry about a charging pally

"A balor typically commands vast legions of demons, and while it often lets these slavering and eager minions fight its battles, the balor is far from a coward. "

that means you've had to wade threw an army just to get to him. are you saving all your smites? also means if it is on the ground, you probably dont have a clear shot needed for a a charge

"In combat, a balor relies upon its spell-like abilities to fight foes wise enough to avoid melee range, favoring destructive powers like fire storm or implosion and saving dominate monster for use against the rare foe it would prefer to capture alive. A balor usually uses telekinesis to disarm ranged weapons or pull foes into melee—with the use of a quickened telekinesis, a balor can use the latter tactic and still inflict a full-round attack on a hapless foe. A balor reduced to fewer than 50 hit points almost always seeks to flee via teleportation, but if that and flight prove impossible it seeks to position itself such that, if it is slain, its death throes are as devastating as possible to the enemy host."

means it's probably disarmed the pally an blown up his horse, most likely while in the air

You get a second swift action when you get your second turn, then you charge again unless it was dumb enough to move up for you to full attack it rather than running for the hills.

Ah, I thought you meant initiate a second smite in the same round.

80.5x3=241.5, not the 192 you quoted. even without a +5 weapon its 226.5

I was factoring in the 80% chance to hit.

Name Violation wrote:

80.5x3=241.5, not the 192 you quoted. even without a +5 weapon its 226.5

I was factoring in the 80% chance to hit.

- I do not think a full attack is viable by the ability anyway, not on a charge at least, basically you get an extra move action but not two full round actions. A partial charge is not an option since you have the option to do a full charge.

- A balor without gear and preparation caught off-guard has ac 36, meaning most likely it will not ever happen, at the very least it will have ac buffed up a bit with the magic items or spells at it's disposal.

- A CR 20 encounter is 'just' an average encounter for a level 20 party, now an encounter with a balor and some impressive demon henchmen might be more likely. Personally I do not have a problem of the paladin to be able to square off against a major demon one on one while the rest of the party is occupied with it's minions which add up to quite an impressive CR themselves.

- as mentioned only the first attack will do double damage vs the balor now.

All in all I think you will have a tougher fight on your hand then you think. By the way I the 20th level paladin example is fine, just because it doesn't say you do not have to banish I do not see a problem with it, unless you are a DM that wants to screw people over.. even so lets assume you are fighting the balor in it's homeplane.

LOL I love it.... Going against a BALOR...

Realistically if a Balor is going to stay on the ground.. then IT is as dumb as his minions.... "evil Laugh" The Balor would simply fly above the night... call in a couple more demons to do his bidding while the BALOR reigns fire and destruction on the Hero...

With damage reduction and SPell Resistance up the arse... your going to need more I think then 1 simple Paladin...even at 20th level I think.

Vampress

your going to need more I think then 1 simple Paladin...even at 20th level I think.

Yep. You're going to need a paladin with a bow!

LOL I love it.... Going against a BALOR...

Realistically if a Balor is going to stay on the ground.. then IT is as dumb as his minions.... "evil Laugh" The Balor would simply fly above the night... call in a couple more demons to do his bidding while the BALOR reigns fire and destruction on the Hero...

With damage reduction and SPell Resistance up the arse... your going to need more I think then 1 simple Paladin...even at 20th level I think.

Vampress

You do realize that basic balors are only CR20, right? You do also realize that I've already proved to one of the more obstinate people on these boards that I could build a Fighter to solo a balor a reasonable percentage (more than 50%, depending mostly on environment; it's near 100% in wide open terrain) of the time. Paladins are more effective at it, thanks to Smite Evil. And for the record, he brought up everything you did and more and still was forced to concede to me.

its like anything else not played to its full potential

a 20th level wizard without a spell book (or spell mastery), and no spells prepared, no scrolls, no staffs or wands, ect, isnt a cr 10 at 20th level

also a balor + 50 cr1's is still a cr 20-23.

then again CR is really dependent on a groups ability. thats why the dm can adjust things.

people also fail to realize the line on a creatures entry labeled "treasure" doesnt mean that stuff pops out of the creatures butt when it dies, it what it had on it. a balor should have a bunch of gear.

its not like videogames where gold coins pop out of wolves

people also fail to realize the line on a creatures entry labeled "treasure" doesnt mean that stuff pops out of the creatures butt when it dies, it what it had on it. a balor should have a bunch of gear.

Incorrect. Increasing the equipment a creature has also increases the CR of that creature. The CRs in the Bestiary are assigned based on their actual stat blocks. If you deck them out in magical bling, you're increasing their CR and changing the encounter.

Also keep in mind that the Treasure value also includes coins, objects of art, and trade goods, as well as gear.

its like anything else not played to its full potential

a 20th level wizard without a spell book (or spell mastery), and no spells prepared, no scrolls, no staffs or wands, ect, isnt a cr 10 at 20th level

also a balor + 50 cr1's is still a cr 20-23.

then again CR is really dependent on a groups ability. thats why the dm can adjust things.

people also fail to realize the line on a creatures entry labeled "treasure" doesnt mean that stuff pops out of the creatures butt when it dies, it what it had on it. a balor should have a bunch of gear.

its not like videogames where gold coins pop out of wolves

Very true indeed... I hate the entitlement.. of where is all the treasure? well maybe its in his lair, not his arse! GO Find it!

Name Violation wrote:

people also fail to realize the line on a creatures entry labeled "treasure" doesnt mean that stuff pops out of the creatures butt when it dies, it what it had on it. a balor should have a bunch of gear.

Incorrect. Increasing the equipment a creature has also increases the CR of that creature. The CRs in the Bestiary are assigned based on their actual stat blocks. If you deck them out in magical bling, you're increasing their CR and changing the encounter.

Also keep in mind that the Treasure value also includes coins, objects of art, and trade goods, as well as gear.

Interesting... Im finding it difficult to visualize this. But if you build a fighter to soley take on a BALOR, then bless you my child.. I personally think thats over Metagaming it abit, and possibly not playing a BALOR to is true potential... but thats just me.

I have seen good DM's TPK a good vetran Party who made the mistake of dealing with a BALOR in NEUTRAL ground. Just saying I guess I am one of those people that have to see it... to believe it. "evil grin"

Vampress

Vampress77 wrote:

LOL I love it.... Going against a BALOR...

Realistically if a Balor is going to stay on the ground.. then IT is as dumb as his minions.... "evil Laugh" The Balor would simply fly above the night... call in a couple more demons to do his bidding while the BALOR reigns fire and destruction on the Hero...

With damage reduction and SPell Resistance up the arse... your going to need more I think then 1 simple Paladin...even at 20th level I think.

Vampress

You do realize that basic balors are only CR20, right? You do also realize that I've already proved to one of the more obstinate people on these boards that I could build a Fighter to solo a balor a reasonable percentage (more than 50%, depending mostly on environment; it's near 100% in wide open terrain) of the time. Paladins are more effective at it, thanks to Smite Evil. And for the record, he brought up everything you did and more and still was forced to concede to me.

Well Im not sure how many HP your Fighter had.. I can only imagine since this was sort of made up to begin with.. were these rolled stats or what? Im curious now.. I mean that encounter would go down as LEGENDARY in the entire world of places like Galorian, Faerun, GreyHawk.. LOL Im not saying its not possible.. Im just saying I would like to do some of my own research... The average Hit from a Balor is what.. in the 50hp range? im just guessing there.

Man vs BALOR... stuff of Legend indeed.

Interesting... Im finding it difficult to visualize this. But if you build a fighter to soley take on a BALOR, then bless you my child.. I personally think thats over Metagaming it abit, and possibly not playing a BALOR to is true potential... but thats just me.

Actually, he wasn't built solely to solo a balor. That was against the terms of the challenge. He wasn't allowed to use any gear or feats that were focused solely on balor killing, so no evil outsider bane weapons or anything like that. He also did it completely unbuffed, without support from any outside actors at all, even though the challenge allowed him to get the benefit of hours/level buffs from other classes.

The thread is HERE.

I have seen good DM's TPK a good vetran Party who made the mistake of dealing with a BALOR in NEUTRAL ground. Just saying I guess I am one of those people that have to see it... to believe it. "evil grin"

Vampress

Balors aren't the end-all be-all. They aren't some mythical ultimate enemy that is nigh-impossible to overcome. A single balor is actually, by the rules, an easy fight for a APL 20 party.

Also, keep in mind that balors are Chaotic to the extreme. They don't play well with others. It sounds like you've done some metagaming of your own with them.

The average Hit from a Balor is what.. in the 50hp range? im just guessing there.

It's very obvious you're guessing, because that's not even remotely close to the truth. The average hit from a balor is ... 20 damage (11 damage for the whip, 17 for the slams if it's disarmed).

Vampress77 wrote:

Interesting... Im finding it difficult to visualize this. But if you build a fighter to soley take on a BALOR, then bless you my child.. I personally think thats over Metagaming it abit, and possibly not playing a BALOR to is true potential... but thats just me.

Actually, he wasn't built solely to solo a balor. That was against the terms of the challenge. He wasn't allowed to use any gear or feats that were focused solely on balor killing, so no evil outsider bane weapons or anything like that. He also did it completely unbuffed, without support from any outside actors at all, even though the challenge allowed him to get the benefit of hours/level buffs from other classes.

The thread is HERE.

Quote:

I have seen good DM's TPK a good vetran Party who made the mistake of dealing with a BALOR in NEUTRAL ground. Just saying I guess I am one of those people that have to see it... to believe it. "evil grin"

Vampress

Balors aren't the end-all be-all. They aren't some mythical ultimate enemy that is nigh-impossible to overcome. A single balor is actually, by the rules, an easy fight for a APL 20 party.

Also, keep in mind that balors are Chaotic to the extreme. They don't play well with others. It sounds like you've done some metagaming of your own with them.

metagaming with them.. how? You just said their easy for a 20th level party.. which I would have to concur with.. but did you not say earlier you solo'd one on one with one?

They are rare at best.. Generals if Im not mistaken in the Abyss... They love destruction.. blah blah... To meet one is rare in itself.

Vampress77 wrote:

The average Hit from a Balor is what.. in the 50hp range? im just guessing there.

It's very obvious you're guessing, because that's not even remotely close to the truth. The average hit from a balor is ... 20 damage (11 damage for the whip, 17 for the slams if it's disarmed).

Yeah.. let me do my own research.. and I will get back with ya... I have seen 9th level fighters do more damage then 11 or 17hp.

You implied that it would cooperate with other demons to tie up the paladin while it "rained fire and destruction from above". That's not really in character for demons. They don't cooperate well. It'd be just as likely for one of those demons to intentionally let the PCs take shots at the balor in the hopes that they would kill it, all the while that demon is teleporting away to take advantage of the power vacuum.

In short, you're describing using Devil tactics with Demons, which doesn't work.

Zurai wrote:

Vampress77 wrote:

The average Hit from a Balor is what.. in the 50hp range? im just guessing there.

It's very obvious you're guessing, because that's not even remotely close to the truth. The average hit from a balor is ... 20 damage (11 damage for the whip, 17 for the slams if it's disarmed).

Yeah.. let me do my own research.. and I will get back with ya... I have seen 9th level fighters do more damage then 11 or 17hp.

There's not much research to do. Their longsword attack is 2d6+13 (average 20), their whip attack is 1d4+1d6+7 (that's actually 13, I missed the fire damage earlier), and their slam is 1d10+12 (17.5, technically).

You implied that it would cooperate with other demons to tie up the paladin while it "rained fire and destruction from above". That's not really in character for demons. They don't cooperate well. It'd be just as likely for one of those demons to intentionally let the PCs take shots at the balor in the hopes that they would kill it, all the while that demon is teleporting away to take advantage of the power vacuum.

In short, you're describing using Devil tactics with Demons, which doesn't work.

It is hardly a tactic worthy of a devil, it isnt so much cooperating as 'using' his minions, demons are not immune to fire and destruction either so he'd prolly destroy them as well.. seems very demonic to me

Incorrect. Increasing the equipment a creature has also increases the CR of that creature.

I question whether this makes sense or not (not whether you are correct, btw). How is it that a 20th lvl character can factor in level equivalent treasure to his CR, but not the opponent? This makes no sense and is comparing apples and oranges. I would consider an opponent (of whatever kind) to include level equivalent treasure. Is this RAW somewhere or just a de facto guideline?

NPC Gear Adjustments: You can significantly increase or decrease the power level of an NPC with class levels by adjusting the NPC's gear. The combined value of an NPC's gear is given in Creating NPCs on Table: NPC Gear. A classed NPC encountered with no gear should have his CR reduced by 1 (provided that loss of gear actually hampers the NPC), while a classed NPC that instead has gear equivalent to that of a PC (as listed on Table: Character Wealth by Level) has a CR of 1 higher than his actual CR. Be careful awarding NPCs this extra gear, though—especially at high levels, where you can blow out your entire adventure's treasure budget in one fell swoop!

Link.

How is it that a 20th lvl character can factor in level equivalent treasure to his CR, but not the opponent?

Because level equivalent treasure for a 20th level PC is what makes him a CR 20 creature. Reduce or increase his treasure level and his CR does the same. An NPC's CR is affected by his treasure as well. He has a lower total treasure than an equivalent level PC, therefore his CR is lower.

Compare NPC WBL with PC WBL in the previous link.

20th level PC gets 880,000gp.
20th level NPC gets 159,000gp.

Big difference in CR.

That line refers to an NPC. By the measure, if you read down further in the treasure awarding section, it says

"Encounters against NPCs typically award three times the treasure of monster-based encounters due to NPC gear."

If you want to say that the CR changes because its an NPC in the challenge rating section, then logically you would have to apply the status of NPC for the treasure reward rules as well. Even if you don't, standard treasure for a CR 20 creature, according to the Bestiary table is 44k for slow advancement, 67k for med, and 100k for fast. Thats a bit of equipment, thats looks like its all inclusive to the CR.

I typically build monster encounters allowing them to use their CR equivalent treasure as part of their equipment, is it the general consensus that it should not be included without raising the CR?

EDIT - ninjaed by TOZ edit, okay so you do factor it in, just not the same level of WBL as a PC, which I don't use for monsters.

I typically build monster encounters allowing them to use their CR equivalent treasure as part of their equipment, is it the general consensus that it should not be included without raising the CR?

EDIT - ninjaed by TOZ edit, okay so you do factor it in, just not the same level of WBL as a PC, which I don't use for monsters.

Yeah, sorry about that. Should have waited until I had it fully formed to post it.

I would say the monster using its treasure should only increase its CR if there is a noticeable difference in the difficulty of the encounter. An archer with a cloak of arachnida firing from out of reach of the party would be a slightly harder encounter, and is also covered under the favorable terrain guidelines.

Keep in mind that the treasure provided by monsters is NOT all equipment. In fact, most of the treasure should be assets (gold, gems, objects of art, etc) rather than equipment, generally speaking. Using the Magic Item Compendium guidelines (as the Core Rulebook really falls down in this regard), a CR 20 creature would only actually have one item as part of its "treasure" (ranging in quality from a greater metamagic rod or ring of evasion up to a +10 weapon).

You also seem to be forgetting that Balors wield +1 unholy vorpal longswords; 1 crit and fighter is gone. And IMO, a balor should have minions in a fight, they are chaotic, not stupid (24 Int).

You also seem to be forgetting that Balors wield +1 unholy vorpal longswords; 1 crit and fighter is gone.

Please don't accuse me of things when you plainly don't know what you're talking about. Read the thread I linked. I covered the vorpal weapon on the first page of that thread. It's a less than 5% chance per hit to vorpal (it has to roll a natural 20, not just crit, and it has to confirm). That's not exactly anything to write home about, especially when FighterMan wins initiative and stealth vs perception and has a massive range advantage.

Where is fighterman getting a +1 competence bonus to initiative from?