Ok, that's a working title, but I've had a request from one of my players for a class that's basically a skill based Knight.

He tried it previously with a Bard/Knight, and it was ok, but he really didn't like the magic or the BAB loss. He's looking for something with a bit of buffing capability (Similar to a Marshal), the Knight's ability to hold the line, a full bab, and all the Knowledge skills (lore skill). Before I go make one up from scratch, I was hoping someone might have some suggestions on existing 3PP classes that are similar. I don't remember any skill based front line types, so it's an unusual concept to do, and multiclassing really doesn't work for it entirely.

High Int Swasbuckler?

Maybe take a few cross-class skills in Knowledge?

You'll either need to convert the 3.5 version from Complete Warrior, or you can pick up the Pathfinder version from: Here
Reviews say it's pretty good.

I got the Tome, and the Swashbuckler in there is very good, but that's not really the flavor. This is more the 'full plate mail', knights code, honorable combatant but not the stupid knight errant like in Knight's Tale. This is the highly trained and charismatic Knight like King Arthur, raised in the knowledge and lore of history, all knowledge skills class skills, and uses that knowledge in his battles.

Think about the commander knight that looks at the enemy formations and says "Ah, they are using a modified Robelar strategy, more than likely they have cavalry out of sight in the forests over there, ready to ride around and flank us." Points to the forests to the east. "Send some scouts to find them and set trip snares. Those heavily armored things in the center appear to be half-fiend goblins, have the archers concentrate on them to soften them up when the battle starts. This reminds me of when Groven the Great battled the Orc Hordes at the battle of Tinemath, what he did was..."

Just add knowledge (war) to his class skills. Historically a knight would have been more likely to know perform skills such as dance or oratory than knowledge ones. Heck, Charlemagne didn't even know how to read and he was an emperor.

Just add knowledge (war) to his class skills. Historically a knight would have been more likely to know perform skills such as dance or oratory than knowledge ones. Heck, Charlemagne didn't even know how to read and he was an emperor.

Dark knowledge is limited. Heck, I'd just say give a bard full BaB, armor proficency and remove their spell casting. Maybe remove perform from their skill list and give him 4 + Int in skill points. Call him a warlord and be done with it.
There is a Warlord class in the Tome of Secrets. I find it a little much, but it might work for you.

Dark knowledge is limited. Heck, I'd just say give a bard full BaB, armor proficency and remove their spell casting. Maybe remove perform from their skill list and give him 4 + Int in skill points. Call him a warlord and be done with it.
There is a Warlord class in the Tome of Secrets. I find it a little much, but it might work for you.

Hmmm,
Went and looked at the warlord again. Not a bad basis, and I have it already. Need to tweak it some, take away a few things, add some more. Maybe base the bonuses off knowledge skill ranks instead of off character level. That would be a good mechanic to represent the class. Not sure if I should up the skill points per level or not, 4 is ok, 6 at most. Deffinately not 8.

stonechild wrote:

Dark knowledge is limited. Heck, I'd just say give a bard full BaB, armor proficency and remove their spell casting. Maybe remove perform from their skill list and give him 4 + Int in skill points. Call him a warlord and be done with it.
There is a Warlord class in the Tome of Secrets. I find it a little much, but it might work for you.

A little much? What do you mean by that Stonechild? What do you dislike about the class?

kyrt-ryder wrote:

stonechild wrote:

Dark knowledge is limited. Heck, I'd just say give a bard full BaB, armor proficency and remove their spell casting. Maybe remove perform from their skill list and give him 4 + Int in skill points. Call him a warlord and be done with it.
There is a Warlord class in the Tome of Secrets. I find it a little much, but it might work for you.

A little much? What do you mean by that Stonechild? What do you dislike about the class?

It was the bonus feats that put it over the top for me.
Also the ranges on the powers change distance with out any rhyme or reason that I can see. If everything was 10 I'd say okay, but some abilities are 10/point of CHA, some are 30 feet, some are sight, some are 30 feet + class lev. So it's not a very consistant mechanic.
And lastly Inspiration is too powerful, way too many temp hit points IMO, perhaps 1d6/ 4 or 5 levels, and it would be better served as a once per day thing.
I understand what they were trying to do with feel of the class, I think, but overall it just seems a little too powerful to me.

I'll agree with you though, the range thing is a little weird. I'd have to look at the class to get a better picture though, since some different abilities would make sense with different ranges. (otherwise, why would spells have different ranges lmao)

kyrt-ryder wrote:

stonechild wrote:

Dark knowledge is limited. Heck, I'd just say give a bard full BaB, armor proficency and remove their spell casting. Maybe remove perform from their skill list and give him 4 + Int in skill points. Call him a warlord and be done with it.
There is a Warlord class in the Tome of Secrets. I find it a little much, but it might work for you.

A little much? What do you mean by that Stonechild? What do you dislike about the class?

It was the bonus feats that put it over the top for me.
Also the ranges on the powers change distance with out any rhyme or reason that I can see. If everything was 10 I'd say okay, but some abilities are 10/point of CHA, some are 30 feet, some are sight, some are 30 feet + class lev. So it's not a very consistant mechanic.
And lastly Inspiration is too powerful, way too many temp hit points IMO, perhaps 1d6/ 4 or 5 levels, and it would be better served as a once per day thing.
I understand what they were trying to do with feel of the class, I think, but overall it just seems a little too powerful to me.

Toss inspiration.

Pump skill points up to 6.

Add all knowledge skills.

Set up a mechanic that gives +1 per four ranks in a specific skill, one at a time. Something like this :

• Arcana +N for Saves vs Spells
• Dungeoneering +N to Saves vs Traps
• Engineering +N to Crafting
• Geography +N*5 to Speed for overland travel only
• History +N to AC vs specific enemy
• Local +N to Charisma skill checks
• Nature +N to Perception checks
• Nobility +N to Diplomacy and Linguistics
• Planes +N to save vs Outsider special attacks
• Religion +N to saves vs Fear effects

The radius for all special abilities would be 10 ft + 5ft/2 ranks, max 60 feet.

Again, just a start, but where my thinking is going. Also get rid of Combat Leader and Commanding Presence. Actually, pretty much all his special abilities except hold the line and bonus feats, then need to come up with another special ability or two that's lore based.

Sounds like you want a secular cleric.

Cleric BAB
Thief Skill points
Bard Skill selection
Ranger or Paladin Spell progression & Spells.

He's got to give up something if he's not a full meat shield.

S

Sounds like you want a secular cleric.

Cleric BAB
Thief Skill points
Bard Skill selection
Ranger or Paladin Spell progression.

He's got to give up something if he's not a full meat shield.

S

I actually finished it up last night and he likes it. I didn't find it too over the top, so I posted it up to the PathfinderDB site, should be up today or tomorrow.

EDIT: Ended up with : Fighter BAB, Bard Skill Points, Fighter skills + Knowledge (All), no spells, Some ability to give buffs to his friends (kind of like a martial), and some knight fighting maneuvers.

The final version of this is up at PathfinderDB if you are interested.

I'm curious to see how it does in play.

I think its way overpowered, but then I'm just digesting Pathfinder.

S

The final version of this is up at PathfinderDB if you are interested.

I'm curious to see how it does in play.

I think its way overpowered, but then I'm just digesting Pathfinder.

S

mdt wrote:

The final version of this is up at PathfinderDB if you are interested.

Major Criticisms:
1) Tactical acumen and tactical command should start out requiring move actions, then progress to swift at 10th level. They should remain separate abilities, requiring separate activations.

2) Preventing the withdraw action is pretty harsh (not to mention a little hard to visualize). Perhaps changing it to something like "all terrain is considered at least difficult while taking the withdraw action."

3) This is a pretty heavily front-loaded class: two of the 1st-level abilities scale with character level, not class level. Plus you get tower shields (which, thematically, I don't agree with, but it's understandable that your vision won't match mine). At the very least reword acumen and command to scale with class level rather than skill ranks (or both, if that's important to you). You might also consider moving tactical initiative to a later level.

4) Let the fighter be the fighter; I see no reason to allow the lore knight access to figher-only feats. If this is a desired result of the class, it should be included via bonus feats.

Minutia:
1) The lore knight's code isn't very restrictive at all; makes me wonder why there is one.

2) I'm not sure a circumstance bonus is the right bonus type for tactical command. Competence, maybe morale, maybe a new type (command?).

3) "Knowledge (Nobility & Royalty): Allies gain a bonus to diplomacy and charisma checks." This is redundant and leaves room for misinterpretation.

4) "Special attack," as used by the Knowledge (planes) and Knowledge (religion) abilities: what defines a special attack? Trip, Grab, Rake? Vital Strike, Power Attack? As far as I can tell, this phrase grants a bonus versus far too many abilities or it does nothing.

5) I am of the opinion that tactical initiative's 10th level upgrade should be a feat (with "Prerequisite Knight level Xth", say three-to-five levels later than whenever the knight gets the tactical initiative ability).

Generic Advice:
It's not necessarily wrong, but it is a sign of... weakness/laziness/something negative to use incorrect terminology: rewrite the sections that involve "tumbling" to use Acrobatics. Along the same lines, lots of things need capitalization and correct formatting. (If you don't care about your design, why should anyone else?) Also along the same lines, the only reason I made the effort to provide helpful criticism was the fact that it is presented in an familiar, easy-to-read format, so well-done there.

Major Criticisms:
1) Tactical acumen and tactical command should start out requiring move actions, then progress to swift at 10th level. They should remain separate abilities, requiring separate activations.

Again, why I was saying you could use them both at the same time was, that if you were giving up your swift action each round, you needed a statement saying they were usable at the same time or else you could only do one or the other.

2) Preventing the withdraw action is pretty harsh (not to mention a little hard to visualize). Perhaps changing it to something like "all terrain is considered at least difficult while taking the withdraw action."

3) This is a pretty heavily front-loaded class: two of the 1st-level abilities scale with character level, not class level. Plus you get tower shields (which, thematically, I don't agree with, but it's understandable that your vision won't match mine). At the very least reword acumen and command to scale with class level rather than skill ranks (or both, if that's important to you). You might also consider moving tactical initiative to a later level.

The maximum bonus that the Lore Knight can gain is either his Skill/4, or his Class Level/4, whichever is lower. I think now you can see what I was going for, if they don't feel the need to put ranks into Knowledge (Religion) for example, then they shouldn't gain any bonus for it. You are correct though that I neglected to think of the effect of multiclassing.

To the tower shields, honestly I just copy/pasted Knight proficiencies. Upon thinking about it, you're right, tower shields don't make a lot of sense for someone trying to keep an eye on the field and move around as needed and assert tactical control. I'll remove the tower shield.

Tactical Initiative... Hmmm... I don't suppose it would hurt to move it level 4 and fill in that blank level.

4) Let the fighter be the fighter; I see no reason to allow the lore knight access to figher-only feats. If this is a desired result of the class, it should be included via bonus feats.

Minutia:
1) The lore knight's code isn't very restrictive at all; makes me wonder why there is one.

2) I'm not sure a circumstance bonus is the right bonus type for tactical command. Competence, maybe morale, maybe a new type (command?).

3) "Knowledge (Nobility & Royalty): Allies gain a bonus to diplomacy and charisma checks." This is redundant and leaves room for misinterpretation.

4) "Special attack," as used by the Knowledge (planes) and Knowledge (religion) abilities: what defines a special attack? Trip, Grab, Rake? Vital Strike, Power Attack? As far as I can tell, this phrase grants a bonus versus far too many abilities or it does nothing.

5) I am of the opinion that tactical initiative's 10th level upgrade should be a feat (with "Prerequisite Knight level Xth", say three-to-five levels later than whenever the knight gets the tactical initiative ability).

Generic Advice:
It's not necessarily wrong, but it is a sign of... weakness/laziness/something negative to use incorrect terminology: rewrite the sections that involve "tumbling" to use Acrobatics. Along the same lines, lots of things need capitalization and correct formatting. (If you don't care about your design, why should anyone else?) Also along the same lines, the only reason I made the effort to provide helpful criticism was the fact that it is presented in an familiar, easy-to-read format, so well-done there.

I thought I got most of the capitalization right. If you have specific examples, not all of them, but examples of things you feel should have been capitalized or not, and formatting you feel is off, please let me know. I'm open to suggestions, obviously.

And yes, I tried to keep it in a format that made sense. Fortunately the webmaster over at Pathfinder DB worked hard to do so as well.

I was imagining it as an ongoing thing though, basically giving up the swift action every round to keep it going. So... a move action 1-9 to activate and a swift to maintain, then a swift to activate at 10+ and free to maintain?

Again, why I was saying you could use them both at the same time was, that if you were giving up your swift action each round, you needed a statement saying they were usable at the same time or else you could only do one or the other.

Ok, I need to clear that up. What it was supposed to do was make it so you couldn't get all your skill bonuses based off character level, you had to put the skill points into...

Well, that's the problem. If you look in the core book, it talks about tumbling, not acrobatics.

If you have specific examples, not all of them, but examples of things you feel should have been capitalized or not, and formatting you feel is off, please let me know. I'm open to suggestions, obviously.

I am on the verge of taking this class, making an NPC, and inserting him into my campaign based solely on liking the material. That happens rarely, even including "professional" content.

One item I see that's not necessarily a problem, but that itches me personally, is the Tactical Acumen's bonus from levels 1-7

Tactical Acumen (Ex): Starting at 1st level, the lore knight begins to put his vast knowledge to use on the battlefield. For every four ranks he has in an appropriate Knowledge skill (see below), he gains a +1 Competence bonus (minimum +1) to Attack and Damage rolls.

It just irritates my sensibilities that he gets it at level 1 even if he doesn't put ranks into it, and that it goes all the way up to level 7 without changing that.

What I would suggest personally, though it's obviously up to you MDT, is to change it as follows

Yes making that change does slightly empower the class overall, but the change doesn't hit until level 4, and it just makes the ability feel a whole lot better from my perspective.

YMMV of course.

EDIT: One more thing, 18th level is awefully late to be giving sleep in heavy armor. The endurence feat grants it at as low a level as one chooses to take it, and is available from level 1.

I wouldn't suggest setting that any later than 4 or 5 personally.

EDIT 2: One MORE thing. Tactical defense implies that you cannot use it against creatures your own size, is this intentional?

One item I see that's not necessarily a problem, but that itches me personally, is the Tactical Acumen's bonus from levels 1-7

Tactical Acumen (Ex): Starting at 1st level, the lore knight begins to put his vast knowledge to use on the battlefield. For every four ranks he has in an appropriate Knowledge skill (see below), he gains a +1 Competence bonus (minimum +1) to Attack and Damage rolls.

It just irritates my sensibilities that he gets it at level 1 even if he doesn't put ranks into it, and that it goes all the way up to level 7 without changing that.

What I would suggest personally, though it's obviously up to you MDT, is to change it as follows

Tactical Acumen (Ex): Starting at 1st level, the lore knight begins to put his vast knowledge to use on the battlefield. Against targets connected to knowledge skills(see below) that he has trained, he gains a +1 Competence bonus to Attack and Damage rolls, +1 for every four ranks he has in the appropriate Knowledge skill, or every four Loreknight class levels, whichever is lower.

Yes making that change does slightly empower the class overall, but the change doesn't hit until level 4, and it just makes the ability feel a whole lot better from my perspective.

YMMV of course.

EDIT: One more thing, 18th level is awefully late to be giving sleep in heavy armor. The endurence feat grants it at as low a level as one chooses to take it, and is available from level 1.

Endurance

Harsh conditions or long exertions do not easily tire you.

Benefit: You gain a +4 bonus on the following checks and saves: Swim checks made to resist nonlethal damage from exhaustion; Constitution checks made to continue running; Constitution checks made to avoid nonlethal damage from a forced march; Constitution checks made to hold your breath; Constitution checks made to avoid nonlethal damage from starvation or thirst; Fortitude saves made to avoid nonlethal damage from hot or cold environments; and Fortitude saves made to resist damage from suffocation.

You may sleep in light or medium armor without becoming fatigued.

Normal: A character without this feat who sleeps in medium or heavier armor is fatigued the next day.

EDIT 2: One MORE thing. Tactical defense implies that you cannot use it against creatures your own size, is this intentional?

Tactical Defense (Ex): Starting at 8th level, a lore knight who is in melee with a creature who is one size larger than him or smaller may prevent that enemy...

If I saw this class in a 3rd party rule book, and you could use both abilities at the same time, it would, at the very least, raise my eyebrows. Whether or not it is "unbalancing"... who can say? Dig this thread up after you've played with it a while and let us know.

mdt wrote:

Ok, I need to clear that up. What it was supposed to do was make it so you couldn't get all your skill bonuses based off character level, you had to put the skill points into...

The 3.5 bard method of detailing bardic music might apply here: "A lore knight of 6th level with at least 6 ranks in Knowledge (whatchamahoozit)..."

Mine does not, nor does the PRD. Edit: I only checked the Acrobatics section... if "tumble" is used elsewhere... well you should still change it, since you're referencing using the Acrobatics skill.

Tumbling: A trained character can attempt to use Acrobatics to move through a square occupied by an opponent (see the Acrobatics skill).

If you have specific examples, not all of them, but examples of things you feel should have been capitalized or not, and formatting you feel is off, please let me know. I'm open to suggestions, obviously.

mdt (Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, GameMastery Maps Subscriber), Sun, Nov 1, 2009, 05:18 PM
Pathfinder 11 Druid 2 avatar

Ok, that's a working title, but I've had a request from one of my players for a class that's basically a skill based Knight.

He tried it previously with a Bard/Knight, and it was ok, but he really didn't like the magic or the BAB loss. He's looking for something with a bit of buffing capability (Similar to a Marshal), the Knight's ability to hold the line, a full bab, and all the Knowledge skills (lore skill). Before I go make one up from scratch, I was hoping someone might have some suggestions on existing 3PP classes that are similar. I don't remember any skill based front line types, so it's an unusual concept to do, and multiclassing really doesn't work for it entirely.

Cheliax DM_aka_Dudemeister (Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber), Sun, Nov 1, 2009, 05:26 PM
Mask avatar

High Int Swasbuckler?

Maybe take a few cross-class skills in Knowledge?

You'll either need to convert the 3.5 version from Complete Warrior, or you can pick up the Pathfinder version from: Here
Reviews say it's pretty good.

mdt (Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, GameMastery Maps Subscriber), Sun, Nov 1, 2009, 05:44 PM
Pathfinder 11 Druid 2 avatar

I got the Tome, and the Swashbuckler in there is very good, but that's not really the flavor. This is more the 'full plate mail', knights code, honorable combatant but not the stupid knight errant like in Knight's Tale. This is the highly trained and charismatic Knight like King Arthur, raised in the knowledge and lore of history, all knowledge skills class skills, and uses that knowledge in his battles.

Think about the commander knight that looks at the enemy formations and says "Ah, they are using a modified Robelar strategy, more than likely they have cavalry out of sight in the forests over there, ready to ride around and flank us." Points to the forests to the east. "Send some scouts to find them and set trip snares. Those heavily armored things in the center appear to be half-fiend goblins, have the archers concentrate on them to soften them up when the battle starts. This reminds me of when Groven the Great battled the Orc Hordes at the battle of Tinemath, what he did was..."

stonechild, Sun, Nov 1, 2009, 05:50 PM
Pathfinder 6 Ranger avatar

Just add knowledge (war) to his class skills. Historically a knight would have been more likely to know perform skills such as dance or oratory than knowledge ones. Heck, Charlemagne didn't even know how to read and he was an emperor.

mdt (Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, GameMastery Maps Subscriber), Sun, Nov 1, 2009, 05:54 PM
Pathfinder 11 Druid 2 avatar

stonechild wrote:

Just add knowledge (war) to his class skills. Historically a knight would have been more likely to know perform skills such as dance or oratory than knowledge ones. Heck, Charlemagne didn't even know how to read and he was an emperor.

Ah, but not going for historical reality precisely, more for the mythic feel of someone who's trained as much in the mind as physically. I'm thinking something like the Dark Knowledge ability of the Archivist or the Lore ability, combined with an inspiration ability and martial prowess. Someone who's a good front line fighter but who also analyzes his opponents, both individually and strategically.

stonechild, Sun, Nov 1, 2009, 06:07 PM
Pathfinder 6 Ranger avatar

Dark knowledge is limited. Heck, I'd just say give a bard full BaB, armor proficency and remove their spell casting. Maybe remove perform from their skill list and give him 4 + Int in skill points. Call him a warlord and be done with it.
There is a Warlord class in the Tome of Secrets. I find it a little much, but it might work for you.

kyrt-ryder, Sun, Nov 1, 2009, 06:10 PM

stonechild wrote:

Dark knowledge is limited. Heck, I'd just say give a bard full BaB, armor proficency and remove their spell casting. Maybe remove perform from their skill list and give him 4 + Int in skill points. Call him a warlord and be done with it.
There is a Warlord class in the Tome of Secrets. I find it a little much, but it might work for you.

A little much? What do you mean by that Stonechild? What do you dislike about the class?

mdt (Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, GameMastery Maps Subscriber), Sun, Nov 1, 2009, 06:23 PM
Pathfinder 11 Druid 2 avatar

Hmmm,
Went and looked at the warlord again. Not a bad basis, and I have it already. Need to tweak it some, take away a few things, add some more. Maybe base the bonuses off knowledge skill ranks instead of off character level. That would be a good mechanic to represent the class. Not sure if I should up the skill points per level or not, 4 is ok, 6 at most. Deffinately not 8.

stonechild, Sun, Nov 1, 2009, 06:36 PM
Pathfinder 6 Ranger avatar

kyrt-ryder wrote:

stonechild wrote:

Dark knowledge is limited. Heck, I'd just say give a bard full BaB, armor proficency and remove their spell casting. Maybe remove perform from their skill list and give him 4 + Int in skill points. Call him a warlord and be done with it.
There is a Warlord class in the Tome of Secrets. I find it a little much, but it might work for you.

A little much? What do you mean by that Stonechild? What do you dislike about the class?

It was the bonus feats that put it over the top for me.
Also the ranges on the powers change distance with out any rhyme or reason that I can see. If everything was 10 I'd say okay, but some abilities are 10/point of CHA, some are 30 feet, some are sight, some are 30 feet + class lev. So it's not a very consistant mechanic.
And lastly Inspiration is too powerful, way too many temp hit points IMO, perhaps 1d6/ 4 or 5 levels, and it would be better served as a once per day thing.
I understand what they were trying to do with feel of the class, I think, but overall it just seems a little too powerful to me.

kyrt-ryder, Sun, Nov 1, 2009, 06:43 PM

stonechild wrote:

kyrt-ryder wrote:

stonechild wrote:

Dark knowledge is limited. Heck, I'd just say give a bard full BaB, armor proficency and remove their spell casting. Maybe remove perform from their skill list and give him 4 + Int in skill points. Call him a warlord and be done with it.
There is a Warlord class in the Tome of Secrets. I find it a little much, but it might work for you.

A little much? What do you mean by that Stonechild? What do you dislike about the class?

It was the bonus feats that put it over the top for me.
Also the ranges on the powers change distance with out any rhyme or reason that I can see. If everything was 10 I'd say okay, but some abilities are 10/point of CHA, some are 30 feet, some are sight, some are 30 feet + class lev. So it's not a very consistant mechanic.
And lastly Inspiration is too powerful, way too many temp hit points IMO, perhaps 1d6/ 4 or 5 levels, and it would be better served as a once per day thing.
I understand what they were trying to do with feel of the class, I think, but overall it just seems a little too powerful to me.

Eh, I'm no stranger to repeatable temporary hit points. In my houserules the barbarian gains his rage hp bonus as temp HP that refreshes each round, and spells/effects (inspire greatness for example) that grant temporary HP refresh them every round, so that's not something that would bother me.

I'll agree with you though, the range thing is a little weird. I'd have to look at the class to get a better picture though, since some different abilities would make sense with different ranges. (otherwise, why would spells have different ranges lmao)

mdt (Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, GameMastery Maps Subscriber), Sun, Nov 1, 2009, 06:53 PM
Pathfinder 11 Druid 2 avatar

stonechild wrote:

kyrt-ryder wrote:

stonechild wrote:

Dark knowledge is limited. Heck, I'd just say give a bard full BaB, armor proficency and remove their spell casting. Maybe remove perform from their skill list and give him 4 + Int in skill points. Call him a warlord and be done with it.
There is a Warlord class in the Tome of Secrets. I find it a little much, but it might work for you.

A little much? What do you mean by that Stonechild? What do you dislike about the class?

It was the bonus feats that put it over the top for me.
Also the ranges on the powers change distance with out any rhyme or reason that I can see. If everything was 10 I'd say okay, but some abilities are 10/point of CHA, some are 30 feet, some are sight, some are 30 feet + class lev. So it's not a very consistant mechanic.
And lastly Inspiration is too powerful, way too many temp hit points IMO, perhaps 1d6/ 4 or 5 levels, and it would be better served as a once per day thing.
I understand what they were trying to do with feel of the class, I think, but overall it just seems a little too powerful to me.

Yeah,
I'm thinking of something like the following :

Toss inspiration.

Pump skill points up to 6.

Add all knowledge skills.

Set up a mechanic that gives +1 per four ranks in a specific skill, one at a time. Something like this :

• Arcana +N for Saves vs Spells
• Dungeoneering +N to Saves vs Traps
• Engineering +N to Crafting
• Geography +N*5 to Speed for overland travel only
• History +N to AC vs specific enemy
• Local +N to Charisma skill checks
• Nature +N to Perception checks
• Nobility +N to Diplomacy and Linguistics
• Planes +N to save vs Outsider special attacks
• Religion +N to saves vs Fear effects

The radius for all special abilities would be 10 ft + 5ft/2 ranks, max 60 feet.

Again, just a start, but where my thinking is going. Also get rid of Combat Leader and Commanding Presence. Actually, pretty much all his special abilities except hold the line and bonus feats, then need to come up with another special ability or two that's lore based.

Sigurd, Monday, 04:07 PM
Dwarf Merchant Final avatar

Sounds like you want a secular cleric.

Cleric BAB
Thief Skill points
Bard Skill selection
Ranger or Paladin Spell progression & Spells.

He's got to give up something if he's not a full meat shield.

S

mdt (Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, GameMastery Maps Subscriber), Monday, 04:12 PM
Pathfinder 11 Druid 2 avatar

Sigurd wrote:

Sounds like you want a secular cleric.

Cleric BAB
Thief Skill points
Bard Skill selection
Ranger or Paladin Spell progression.

He's got to give up something if he's not a full meat shield.

S

No spells at all, that was the beef with the multiclassed knight/bard, the player didn't want any spells, just skills, the ability to fight, and some special abilities based off his skills.

I actually finished it up last night and he likes it. I didn't find it too over the top, so I posted it up to the PathfinderDB site, should be up today or tomorrow.

EDIT: Ended up with : Fighter BAB, Bard Skill Points, Fighter skills + Knowledge (All), no spells, Some ability to give buffs to his friends (kind of like a martial), and some knight fighting maneuvers.

mdt (Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, GameMastery Maps Subscriber), Tuesday, 11:11 AM
Pathfinder 11 Druid 2 avatar

The final version of this is up at PathfinderDB if you are interested.

Sigurd, Tuesday, 11:49 PM
Dwarf Merchant Final avatar

I'm curious to see how it does in play.

I think its way overpowered, but then I'm just digesting Pathfinder.

S

mdt wrote:

The final version of this is up at PathfinderDB if you are interested.

mdt (Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, GameMastery Maps Subscriber), Wednesday, 04:41 AM
Pathfinder 11 Druid 2 avatar

Sigurd wrote:

I'm curious to see how it does in play.

I think its way overpowered, but then I'm just digesting Pathfinder.

S

mdt wrote:

The final version of this is up at PathfinderDB if you are interested.

Just curious where you consider it to be overpowered compared to the other classes.

Osirion Tom Baumbach (Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber), Yesterday, 02:16 PM
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Major Criticisms:
1) Tactical acumen and tactical command should start out requiring move actions, then progress to swift at 10th level. They should remain separate abilities, requiring separate activations.

2) Preventing the withdraw action is pretty harsh (not to mention a little hard to visualize). Perhaps changing it to something like "all terrain is considered at least difficult while taking the withdraw action."

3) This is a pretty heavily front-loaded class: two of the 1st-level abilities scale with character level, not class level. Plus you get tower shields (which, thematically, I don't agree with, but it's understandable that your vision won't match mine). At the very least reword acumen and command to scale with class level rather than skill ranks (or both, if that's important to you). You might also consider moving tactical initiative to a later level.

4) Let the fighter be the fighter; I see no reason to allow the lore knight access to figher-only feats. If this is a desired result of the class, it should be included via bonus feats.

Minutia:
1) The lore knight's code isn't very restrictive at all; makes me wonder why there is one.

2) I'm not sure a circumstance bonus is the right bonus type for tactical command. Competence, maybe morale, maybe a new type (command?).

3) "Knowledge (Nobility & Royalty): Allies gain a bonus to diplomacy and charisma checks." This is redundant and leaves room for misinterpretation.

4) "Special attack," as used by the Knowledge (planes) and Knowledge (religion) abilities: what defines a special attack? Trip, Grab, Rake? Vital Strike, Power Attack? As far as I can tell, this phrase grants a bonus versus far too many abilities or it does nothing.

5) I am of the opinion that tactical initiative's 10th level upgrade should be a feat (with "Prerequisite Knight level Xth", say three-to-five levels later than whenever the knight gets the tactical initiative ability).

Generic Advice:
It's not necessarily wrong, but it is a sign of... weakness/laziness/something negative to use incorrect terminology: rewrite the sections that involve "tumbling" to use Acrobatics. Along the same lines, lots of things need capitalization and correct formatting. (If you don't care about your design, why should anyone else?) Also along the same lines, the only reason I made the effort to provide helpful criticism was the fact that it is presented in an familiar, easy-to-read format, so well-done there.

mdt (Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, GameMastery Maps Subscriber), Yesterday, 03:38 PM
Pathfinder 11 Druid 2 avatar

Tom Baumbach wrote:

Major Criticisms:
1) Tactical acumen and tactical command should start out requiring move actions, then progress to swift at 10th level. They should remain separate abilities, requiring separate activations.

Hmmm.
Ok, that's a valid criticism. I'll probably make that change. Thanks for pointing that out. I was imagining it as an ongoing thing though, basically giving up the swift action every round to keep it going. So... a move action 1-9 to activate and a swift to maintain, then a swift to activate at 10+ and free to maintain?

Again, why I was saying you could use them both at the same time was, that if you were giving up your swift action each round, you needed a statement saying they were usable at the same time or else you could only do one or the other.

Tom Baumbach wrote:

2) Preventing the withdraw action is pretty harsh (not to mention a little hard to visualize). Perhaps changing it to something like "all terrain is considered at least difficult while taking the withdraw action."

Easy for me to visualize, backing the person into a corner, putting them in a position where it's suicidal to withdraw (as in, only an absolute moron would turn his back right now because I'll split your skull open). It requires a successful maneuver check, and he can only do it once per round.

Tom Baumbach wrote:

3) This is a pretty heavily front-loaded class: two of the 1st-level abilities scale with character level, not class level. Plus you get tower shields (which, thematically, I don't agree with, but it's understandable that your vision won't match mine). At the very least reword acumen and command to scale with class level rather than skill ranks (or both, if that's important to you). You might also consider moving tactical initiative to a later level.

Ok, I need to clear that up. What it was supposed to do was make it so you couldn't get all your skill bonuses based off character level, you had to put the skill points into the skill. So, I guess I need to add a paragraph that says :

The maximum bonus that the Lore Knight can gain is either his Skill/4, or his Class Level/4, whichever is lower. I think now you can see what I was going for, if they don't feel the need to put ranks into Knowledge (Religion) for example, then they shouldn't gain any bonus for it. You are correct though that I neglected to think of the effect of multiclassing.

To the tower shields, honestly I just copy/pasted Knight proficiencies. Upon thinking about it, you're right, tower shields don't make a lot of sense for someone trying to keep an eye on the field and move around as needed and assert tactical control. I'll remove the tower shield.

Tactical Initiative... Hmmm... I don't suppose it would hurt to move it level 4 and fill in that blank level.

Tom Baumbach wrote:

4) Let the fighter be the fighter; I see no reason to allow the lore knight access to figher-only feats. If this is a desired result of the class, it should be included via bonus feats.

I didn't want to give the class any bonus feats, I think he's getting plenty of abilities without giving him another 3-4 feats. That's why I did it the way I did.

Tom Baumbach wrote:

Minutia:
1) The lore knight's code isn't very restrictive at all; makes me wonder why there is one.

I think it is. But then again, I've had people howl in my game when enemies try to surrender rather than be killed, and someone else accepts that surrender and insists they do too.

Tom Baumbach wrote:

2) I'm not sure a circumstance bonus is the right bonus type for tactical command. Competence, maybe morale, maybe a new type (command?).

Actually I looked at that the other day and realized with one of those 'Duh!' moments that it should have been an insight bonus.

Tom Baumbach wrote:

3) "Knowledge (Nobility & Royalty): Allies gain a bonus to diplomacy and charisma checks." This is redundant and leaves room for misinterpretation.

Yeah, that needs to be cleared up.

Tom Baumbach wrote:

4) "Special attack," as used by the Knowledge (planes) and Knowledge (religion) abilities: what defines a special attack? Trip, Grab, Rake? Vital Strike, Power Attack? As far as I can tell, this phrase grants a bonus versus far too many abilities or it does nothing.

Spell or Spell-like abilities (including channel energy, dragon breath, etc) and anything under the Special Qualities block. It wouldn't help vs a trip attack, or a grapple, or a bite or claw. It would against a Charm Person, or Paralysis, or Channel Negative Energy. Also, note it's a bonus to saving throws. You don't get saving throws vs Trip, Grab, Rake, Vital Strike, Power Attack, etc. So those are automatically tossed out.

Tom Baumbach wrote:

5) I am of the opinion that tactical initiative's 10th level upgrade should be a feat (with "Prerequisite Knight level Xth", say three-to-five levels later than whenever the knight gets the tactical initiative ability).

Not sure I agree with that, but I'll think it over.

Tom Baumbach wrote:

Generic Advice:
It's not necessarily wrong, but it is a sign of... weakness/laziness/something negative to use incorrect terminology: rewrite the sections that involve "tumbling" to use Acrobatics. Along the same lines, lots of things need capitalization and correct formatting. (If you don't care about your design, why should anyone else?) Also along the same lines, the only reason I made the effort to provide helpful criticism was the fact that it is presented in an familiar, easy-to-read format, so well-done there.

Well, that's the problem. If you look in the core book, it talks about tumbling, not acrobatics. And under Acrobatics, it talks about tumbling checks. If you look in combat it talks about tumbling as well. So, if I use "Acrobatics checks" instead of "Tumbling" as it uses in Combat, I'm afraid I'll bring about confusion as well. Believe me, I rewrote that section 3 times and went back and forth between 'Acrobatics' 'Tumbling' and 'Acrobatics (Tumbling)'.

I thought I got most of the capitalization right. If you have specific examples, not all of them, but examples of things you feel should have been capitalized or not, and formatting you feel is off, please let me know. I'm open to suggestions, obviously.

And yes, I tried to keep it in a format that made sense. Fortunately the webmaster over at Pathfinder DB worked hard to do so as well.

Osirion Tom Baumbach (Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber), 7 hours, 10 minutes ago
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mdt wrote:

I was imagining it as an ongoing thing though, basically giving up the swift action every round to keep it going. So... a move action 1-9 to activate and a swift to maintain, then a swift to activate at 10+ and free to maintain?

Agree.

mdt wrote:

Again, why I was saying you could use them both at the same time was, that if you were giving up your swift action each round, you needed a statement saying they were usable at the same time or else you could only do one or the other.

If I saw this class in a 3rd party rule book, and you could use both abilities at the same time, it would, at the very least, raise my eyebrows. Whether or not it is "unbalancing"... who can say? Dig this thread up after you've played with it a while and let us know.

mdt wrote:

Ok, I need to clear that up. What it was supposed to do was make it so you couldn't get all your skill bonuses based off character level, you had to put the skill points into...

The 3.5 bard method of detailing bardic music might apply here: "A lore knight of 6th level with at least 6 ranks in Knowledge (whatchamahoozit)..."

mdt wrote:

Well, that's the problem. If you look in the core book, it talks about tumbling, not acrobatics.

Mine does not, nor does the PRD. Edit: I only checked the Acrobatics section... if "tumble" is used elsewhere... well you should still change it, since you're referencing using the Acrobatics skill.

mdt wrote:

If you have specific examples, not all of them, but examples of things you feel should have been capitalized or not, and formatting you feel is off, please let me know. I'm open to suggestions, obviously.

Skills should be capitalized (Survival, not survival; there are others), it should be "Heal checks" not "Healing checks", class abilities are not capitalized. Also, please don't read these style criticisms as trite or overbearing - I wouldn't mention them if I didn't like the class and want it to live up to its potential.

I am on the verge of taking this class, making an NPC, and inserting him into my campaign based solely on liking the material. That happens rarely, even including "professional" content.
LOL,
Don't know why I'd take it personally. It's an untried class. Feedback is appreciated. :) And thanks for the compliment.

LOL,
As you can see above, the hazards of copy/paste. Sorry for that long and really weird post. :)

Here's an updated version of the class features.

Class Features
The lore knight’s class features all serve to further his overall purpose, which is to bolster both his own and his allies combat efficiency, to learn from the past rather than repeat it.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Lore knights are proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor, and all shields (excluding tower shields).

Fighter: A lore knight may qualify for fighter feats as if her were a fighter equal to half his class level. This stacks with any fighter levels he may take. Thus a lore knight 4/fighter 4 would qualify for feats as if he were a fighter 6.

Lore Knight's Code: A lore knight follows a code of conduct that is slightly less restrictive than the normal knights, but just as important to him. A lore knight never leads his troops to suicide unless there is an overwhelming reason. A lore knight never lies to his troops, he never puts himself before his troops. He will always accept a surrender from an honorable foe. He does not, however, give quarter unless asked for. Any advantage in combat is just that, an advantage that should be exploited. It is more important to keep one's allies safe than it is to worry about using a situation to one's advantage to kill an enemy. If backstabbing an enemy will keep one of his troops from harm, a lore knight will have no compunctions about doing so. Attacking an enemy from ambush is good tactics, not dishonorable. By the same token though, a helpless enemy should be spared, if possible. That's not to say an enemy should not be tried in a court if they have committed crimes, and if he has been granted low justice by a lord, he will use it.

Tactical Acumen (Ex): Starting at 1st level, the lore knight begins to put his vast knowledge to use on the battlefield. He gains a +1 Insight bonus to Attack and Damage rolls. Additionally, for every five full ranks he has in an appropriate Knowledge skill (see below), he gains an additional +1. If he has 10 or more ranks in the knowledge skill, he can grant half his bonus to any ally within 30 feet.
To gain the bonus, he must have ranks in the knowledge associated with the creature he is facing. The association between knowledge skills and creature types are listed on page 100, PF Core. To gain his bonus, he must make a knowledge check as a standard action which can be combined with a move, and use a swift action to maintain it. If he has 10 or more ranks in the skill, it is a swift action to activate the bonus, and a free action to maintain it. Each type of creature requires a different check to gain the benefit. He may make the check only once for each specific type of creature present. Once made, his bonus is in effect for the rest of the encounter, provided he maintains the bonus. The DC of the check is 15 plus the CR of the creature (multiple creatures do not increase the CR of the base creature, but templates and other adjustments to CR do).
For example, a lore knight encounters a young adult dragon surrounded by 10 kobolds. Both are draconic creatures, so on his first round, he may make a Knowledge (Arcana) check as part of his move to gain a bonus against either the kobolds or the dragon. The DC for the dragon is 15 + 10 (a young adult black dragon's CR), or 25. The DC for the kobolds is dependent on their class levels. Assuming the kobolds were class level 6, their DC would be 15 + 5, or 20. If the knight had 12 ranks in Knowledge (Arcana), he could gain a +3 attack/+3 damage against both enemies, and grant his allies a +1/+1 (+3/2, round down) insight bonus. Note that the maximum bonus a lore knight can receive is equal to 1 + his class levels / 5. Thus, a lore knight 5/wizard 5 with 10 ranks in Knowledge (Arcana) can receive at maximum a +2 bonus, although he can grant half of that bonus to his allies due to his level of knowledge.

Tactical Initiative (Ex): At 4th level, a lore knight uses his intelligence modifier on initiative checks, or his dexterity modifier, whichever is higher. Armor check penalties do not reduce his intelligence modifier for purposes of initiative. At 10th level, the lore knight may use both his intelligence and dexterity modifiers added together.

Tactical Command (Ex): A lore knight uses his knowledge both on and off the battlefield, be it when making plans or building entrenchments or getting his troops where they need to go. As a standard action that may be combined with a move he may exhort his allies and boost their effectiveness both in and out of combat. A lore knight can only grant one tactical command bonus at a time to his allies. All allies within 30 feet gain a +1 insight bonus, plus an additional +1 per five full ranks the lore knight has in a specific skill. This bonus is further capped by the lore knights class level, and may not be more than 1 + CL/5. The lore knight may maintain both tactical command and tactical acumen by expending a swift action each turn once they are activated separately. If the lore knight has 10 or more ranks in the relevant Knowledge skill, he may activate that skills' command ability as a swift action rather than a standard action, and maintain it as a free action.
This ability ceases to function if the lore knight cannot communicate with his allies. For example, if inside a cone of silence, the lore knight cannot grant his bonuses unless he has some other way of communicating (such as a telepathy spell, or sign language). All allies must understand the lore knight's spoken language to benefit as well, although the lore knight can choose any language he speaks when using this ability.
Knowledge(Arcana): All allies gain a bonus to their saves to resist spells and spell-like abilities.
Knowledge(Dungeoneering): All allies gain a bonus to saves to avoid traps, Perception checks to find secret doors and traps, and to Disable Device checks to disable traps and pick locks.
Knowledge(Engineering): All allies gain a bonus to Craft checks, and to attacks using siege weapons.
Knowledge(Geography): All allies gain bonus to navigate over difficult terrain.
Knowledge(History): All allies gain a bonus on initiative checks, and may roll an extra initative dice when checking for initiative and take the better. If this ability is changed mid-combat, reduce all allies initiative's by twice the bonus originally granted.
Knowledge(Local): All allies gain bonus bonus on Heal checks.
Knowledge(Nature): All allies gain a bonus on Survival checks, endurance checks to avoid fatigue, and add 5 feet per point of bonus to their land speed when traveling overland to determine how far they can go in a day.
Knowledge(Nobility & Royalty): Allies gain a bonus to charisma checks, including charisma based skill checks.
Knowledge(Planes): Allies gain a bonus to their saves vs any special attack, spell, or spell-like ability used by an outsider.
Knowledge(Religion): Allies gain a bonus to their saves vs any special attack, spell, or spell-like ability used by any divine caster, or any creature with the GOOD or EVIL descriptor.

Tactical Control: Starting at 3rd level, the lore knight may take tactical control of the battlefield around him. His constant thinking ahead allows him to force his enemies to dance to his tempo, not their own. Any area he threatens is considered difficult terrain for his enemies.
At 10th level, the DC of any attempts to tumble through an area he threatens using Acrobatics is increased by his Lore Knight level. Additionally, he may sacrifice an attack of opportunity if the attempt fails and stop the opponent's movement.
At 15th level, a failed Acrobatics (Tumble) check through an area he threatens automatically stops the opponent, and the lore knight gains a +2 circumstance bonus on attacks of opportunity against the opponent, if he can make one.

Tactical Movement: Starting at 6th level, a lore knight's intense training in martial prowess allows him to retain his base movement even while wearing medium armor. He may also sleep in his medium armor without penalty, as if he had the endurance feat.
At 12th level he may ignore speed reductions from heavy armor, but cannot sleep in it without incurring the normal penalties.
At 18th level he may sleep in heavy armor without penalties. It has become a second skin.
Tactical Movement does not counteract the effects of medium or heavy encumbrance.

Tactical Leadership: At 7th level, the lore knight's reputation is well known, and he begins to attract followers. He gains the Leadership feat, even if his Charisma is not high enough to qualify.
At 14th level, his leadership ability grows. His cohort's max level is now his own level minus one. In addition, he may add his Intelligence modifier to his Leadership score.

Tactical Defense: Starting at 8th level, a lore knight who is in melee with a creature who is one size larger than him or smaller may prevent that enemy from withdrawing or taking a 5-foot step by using an immediate action to make a maneuver check pitting the lore knight's CMB vs the enemies CMD. If the lore knight succeeds, the enemy cannot withdraw or take a 5-foot step that round. He may only do this once per round.
At 16th level, the lore knight may, if successful at preventing an enemy from leaving his threatened area, make an immediate maneuver check against the same opponent. He may sunder, disarm, or trip. He follows all normal rules for the attempts, except that he does not provoke an attack of opportunity from the opponent he stopped from moving. Any adjacent allies of the opponent may make attacks of opportunity if they are normally allowed to.

Tactical Perfection: At 20th level the lore knight's tactical thinking is so advanced that no one may pass through a square he threatens. Any attempt, no matter the method, fails, as he anticipates their moves before they even think of making them. The only exception is if the creature is more than one size larger than the lore knight, but even then, he may use his Tactical Control and Tactical Defense abilities on the creature.

Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special
1st +1 +2 +0 +2 Lore Knight's Code, Tactical Acumen , Tactical Command
2nd +2 +3 +0 +3
3rd +3 +3 +1 +3 Tactical Control(Difficult Terrain)
4th +4 +4 +1 +4 Tactical Initiative
5th +5 +4 +1 +4
6th +6 +5 +2 +5 Tactical Movement (Medium Armor)
7th +7 +5 +2 +5 Tactical Leadership (Leadership Feat)
8th +8 +6 +2 +6 Tactical Defense (stop withdraw)
9th +9 +6 +3 +6
10th +10 +7 +3 +7 Tactical Control(Increased Tumble DC's)
11th +11 +7 +3 +7
12th +12 +8 +4 +8 Tactical Movement (Move in Heavy Armor)
13th +13 +8 +4 +8
14th +14 +9 +4 +9 Tactical Leadership (Cohort level increase, Add Int Modifier to Leadership)
15th +15 +9 +5 +9 Tactical Control (Attack of Opportunity)
16th +16 +10 +5 +10 Tactical Defense (sunder, disarm, trip)
17th +17 +10 +5 +10
18th +18 +11 +6 +11 Tactical Movement (Sleep in heavy armor)
19th +19 +11 +6 +11
20th +20 +12 +6 +12 Tactical Perfection