Ok everyone, I've been thinking about this, and this is my first attempt to do this, so don't be all hate like. :) Constructive criticism welcome of course.

Now, I really kind of like the monk, but, the one in the book has always struck me as a mixed hard style. That is, it's a hard style that uses a mixture of armed and unarmed components. That's great, unless you want to play a drunken monk, or a zen archer, or a calm/cool/collected tai-chi master.

So, I'm sort of trying to work up alternate 'kits' for the monk to handle the different styles. Here's my first very very very rough draft.

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Alternate Monk Builds

These are designed to represent alternate martial arts styles. Not those from real life, but rather, different philosophies, hard vs soft, unarmed vs weapon arts, etc.

By default, the core Monk is a 'hard' mixed style. It includes the use of some weapons and a decent unarmed attack ability, but there is no concept of using an opponents energy against them.

Hard Unarmed Style
This style represents styles which never have any weapon components. The monk simply never trains in any sort of weapon maneuvers. The monk loses all access to weapon proficiencies and cannot use any of his monk abilities or powers with anything other than his unarmed blows. In exchange, he increases his unarmed damage by one step on the monk chart. Thus a 1st level monk has an unarmed damage of 1d6/1d8/2d6 (based on size). At 20th level the monks unarmed damage is 2d10/3d8/4d10 (based on size).

Hard Weapon Style
This style represents styles which focus primarily on weapon components over unarmed. The monk still maintains his increased unarmed damage, but cannot use his unarmed blows to perform his flurry or stunning fist ability. Additionally, he does not gain quivering palm.

• Remove all combat maneuver feats from his bonus feats, but add Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization to his main bonus feat list.
  
• Add Dazzling Diplay to his 6th level bonus list.
  
• Add Greater Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Specialization to his 10th level bonus list.

  Blade Style
  

• Modify monks weapon list to be Katana (masterwork bastardsword), wakizashi (short sword), sai, kama, kris, dagger, siangham .
  
• The monk is considered proficient with the katana (bastard sword) and able to wield it one-handed.

  Staff Style
  

• Modify weapons list to be Quarterstaff, club (sticks, nightsticks), nunchaku, spear, exotic staff weapons.
  
• While wielding a monk weapon in this group the monk gains a +1 deflection bonus to his AC as he uses his weapon to avoid blows even while attacking.
  
• Add the Lunge feat to his main list of bonus feats.
  

Soft Style
This style represents styles which concentrate on using the enemies power against him. These styles deemphasize attack and emphasize defense instead. Traditionally these styles do not use hard style weapons, and so the monk weapon list for this style is reduced to club, nunchaku and quarterstaff. The monk loses flurry of blows as a class feature, but retains the additional unarmed damage.
A soft style monk gains a bonus to his CMB and CMD equal to one-half his level, in addition to using his level as his BAB at third level. Remove all improved combat maneuver feats from the monks bonus feat list. Instead, at second level the monk receives any one of the following feats, his choice : Improved Trip, Improved Disarm, Improved Grapple. At 4th level he gains another feat from the previous list, again his choice which. At 6th level he gains a feat from the previous list, but also add Improved Bull Rush and Improved Feint. At 8th level he gains another feat from the combined list, his choice. At 10th level he gains whichever of the listed feats he has not already chosen.
Also add Combat Reflexes, Lightning Reflexes and Defensive Combat Training to his list of bonus main bonus feats. Add Improved Lightning Reflexes, and Stand Still to his 6th level bonus feat list, and finally add Strikeback to his 10th level list.

Zen Archery
This style represents styles which concentrate on using ranged combat rather than melee or unarmed combat. The monk loses flurry of blows, quivering palm, stunning fist, and his increased unarmed attack damage. Alter his monk weapon list as follows : Bow, crossbow, shuriken, sling, dagger, dart. Remove the following feats from his bonus feat list : Catch Off Guard, Combat Reflexes, Improved Grapple, Scorpion Style, Gorgon's Fist, Improved Disarm, Improved Feint, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Trip, Improved Critical, Medusa's Wrath, Spring Attack. A Zen Archer gains the following abilities at the specified levels. Add the following to his main bonus feat list : Far Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot. Add the following to his 6th level feat list : Improved Precise Shot, Manyshot. Add the following to his 10th level feat list : Pinpoint Targeting.
Point-Blank Shot : The monk gains this feat at 1st level.
Zen Archery: At 4th level and above, the monk may use his dexterity modifier or his wisdom modifier, whichever is higher, when making ranged attacks. At 8th level, he may sacrifice his AC bonus to gain a bonus to his attack rolls with ranged weapons, each -1 AC penalty taken equals a +1 attack bonus gained. He cannot sacrifice more AC than he gains in bonus from his monk levels.

Flurry of Shots
Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of shots as a full-attack action. When doing so he may make one additional attack using any ranged weapon by taking a -2 on each attack, provided that the weapon is capable of firing that rapidly. For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus is equal to his monk level. For all other purposes, such as qualifying for a feat or a prestige class, the monk uses his normal base attack bonus.
At 8th level, the monk can make two additional attacks when he uses flurry of shots, the second extra attack is at a -5 penalty.
At 15th level, the monk can make three additional attacks using flurry of shots, the third extra attack is at a -10 penalty.
A monk may apply his full dex as a bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of shots if the target is within 30 feet. A monk cannot use any weapon other than a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of shots.

Moving Shot
At 6th level, a monk may make a single ranged attack as part of a full move at his normal (non flurry) BAB. This is treated as the feat Shot on The Run. At 12th level, he may make two shots, the second is at -5. And at 18th level, he may make three shots, the third is at -10.

I like all of those ideas!

I'm currently playing a spear-using monk (using the Eberron feat that allows flurrying with a spear) and I like it, although it seems like there are quite a few abilities that go to waste (improved unarmed damage and Stunning Fist, e.g). One suggestion I've seen is to allow an armed monk to use the weapon's base damage or his unarmed base damage, whichever is better.

I also like the Soft Style idea; why shouldn't monks be the best grapplers and trippers in the world, goshdarnit?

I like all of those ideas!

I'm currently playing a spear-using monk (using the Eberron feat that allows flurrying with a spear) and I like it, although it seems like there are quite a few abilities that go to waste (improved unarmed damage and Stunning Fist, e.g). One suggestion I've seen is to allow an armed monk to use the weapon's base damage or his unarmed base damage, whichever is better.

I also like the Soft Style idea; why shouldn't monks be the best grapplers and trippers in the world, goshdarnit?

Thanks. As to improved weapon damage... I might see allowing them to increase the weapon damage as if using a larger sized weapon, but every 8 levels, not the normal progression. I'd have to work it up. Hmmm...

Looks Interesting, a couple of points

First, in the hard style you add some fighter only feats to the list. I dont have a problem with this, but I think you should indicate that the monk has to be at least the fighter required level in monk to take the feats IE weapon spec, must be at least level 4 monk.

In the zen archer, can flurry of shots be combined with rapid shot/many shot? In that case that is a whole lot of attacks (albeit at a low attack bonus: +4(manyshot)/+4(rapid shot)/+4(flurry)/+4(normal)/-1(normal)/-1(flurry 2)/-6(flurry 3)). Thats 7 shots in one round, thats easily a quiver or two per combat. You are also including the crossbow in the weapon list but it seems out of place, since clearly this major class feature doesnt work with a crossbow.

Also I assume since you just wrote 'bow' this includes all bow types?

Looks Interesting, a couple of points

First, in the hard style you add some fighter only feats to the list. I dont have a problem with this, but I think you should indicate that the monk has to be at least the fighter required level in monk to take the feats IE weapon spec, must be at least level 4 monk.

In the zen archer, can flurry of shots be combined with rapid shot/many shot? In that case that is a whole lot of attacks (albeit at a low attack bonus: +4(manyshot)/+4(rapid shot)/+4(flurry)/+4(normal)/-1(normal)/-1(flurry 2)/-6(flurry 3)). Thats 7 shots in one round, thats easily a quiver or two per combat. You are also including the crossbow in the weapon list but it seems out of place, since clearly this major class feature doesnt work with a crossbow.

Also I assume since you just wrote 'bow' this includes all bow types?

I think, no, it wouldn't stack with flurry of shots, but you could use Manyshot and Rapid shot with Zen Archery, gaining the bonus from losing AC to all the shots you fire in the round. Zen Archery would also be usable with Flurry of course.

I put in crossbow because you could use a Cross-bow with Moving Shot and Zen Archery. Technically, I think you could use rapid reload to use a cross-bow with flurry, but not sure.

And yes, I wrote bow, but I meant all bows.

I think, no, it wouldn't stack with flurry of shots, but you could use Manyshot and Rapid shot with Zen Archery, gaining the bonus from losing AC to all the shots you fire in the round. Zen Archery would also be usable with Flurry of course.

For blade style I would personally remove katana and replace it with Jian (chinese straight sword; treat as short sword despite length) or Dao (chinese broad sword/sabre..treat as long sword), or Miao Dao (treat as bastard sword). For a more Japanese flavor replace the Katana with the Kodachi (treat as short sword) or nagimaki (treat as glaive).

You may also want to check "Unapproachable East" for Realms. The Shou Disciple is a 5-level prestige class that could flurry with weapons.

-Weylin

mdt wrote:

I think, no, it wouldn't stack with flurry of shots, but you could use Manyshot and Rapid shot with Zen Archery, gaining the bonus from losing AC to all the shots you fire in the round. Zen Archery would also be usable with Flurry of course.

In that case 2 key feats in your bonus feat list dont work with and sort of replicate a primary class feature. Manyshot, and especially rapid shot overlap with and dont work with Flurry of shots, so they arent really worth while. It would be like putting the two weapon fighting feats in the normal monks bonus feat list. Why would anyone take them?

You have a good point. Manyshot seems a fine addition, it's firing two arrows at once. Even rapid shot seems ok. That however gives us 7 arrows at 20th level.

I guess the question is, is that overpowered. It's 2 more 'attacks' than a fighter at 20th. On the other hand, a 20th level fighter is going to be cranking a lot more damage.

Will those extra two arrows at -7 and -12 really make that much a difference? The -12 you can practically ignore, it's only hitting 5% of the time. The -7 is probably not hitting often either.

I think a two-weapon fighter would be getting the same number of attacks if he went greater two-weapon fighting. So...

Ok, I think maybe they would stack. You convinced me. ;)

For blade style I would personally remove katana and replace it with Jian (chinese straight sword; treat as short sword despite length) or Dao (chinese broad sword/sabre..treat as long sword), or Miao Dao (treat as bastard sword). For a more Japanese flavor replace the Katana with the Kodachi (treat as short sword) or nagimaki (treat as glaive).

You may also want to check "Unapproachable East" for Realms. The Shou Disciple is a 5-level prestige class that could flurry with weapons.

-Weylin

If you are able, take a look at GURPS martial arts for 3rd or 4th edition. In addition, D&D Oriental 1E had a nice system to distinguishing styles and maneuvers.

Weylin wrote:

For blade style I would personally remove katana and replace it with Jian (chinese straight sword; treat as short sword despite length) or Dao (chinese broad sword/sabre..treat as long sword), or Miao Dao (treat as bastard sword). For a more Japanese flavor replace the Katana with the Kodachi (treat as short sword) or nagimaki (treat as glaive).

You may also want to check "Unapproachable East" for Realms. The Shou Disciple is a 5-level prestige class that could flurry with weapons.

-Weylin

Yeah, I was trying to avoid bringing in real world styles, to keep it generic enough to work for anyone. What I should have done was make it bastardsword, longsword, shortsword, and then it could replicate pretty much any style. I really wish there were rules for a hook sword.

I like the idea of keeping it to Short/Long/Bastard/Great Sword if you want to keep real world styles out of it. Also keeps it ethnically neutral and many cultures had versions of those swords.

For hook sword, i would treat them as kama (including the trip weapon ability) and possibly add a bonus to disarm. Or you could use this write-up: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Hook_Sword_(3.5e_Equipment)

-Weylin

I really wish there were rules for a hook sword.

Pathfinderish they would be:
Exotic Weapon: Light
1d6 17-20 x2 with the disarm and trip features.

We also had a feat where when wielding 2 of them you could take a move action to turn them into a single reach weapon.

For hook sword, you could do something like khopesh - an exotic longsword that can be used to trip.

For hook sword, you could do something like khopesh - an exotic longsword that can be used to trip.

Just need to add that reach aspect in there. Possibly as a move action initially with the Exotic Weapon Proficiency, later as a swift action with Weapon Focus, finally as a free action with Weapon Specialization?

-Weylin

If you are able, take a look at GURPS martial arts for 3rd or 4th edition. In addition, D&D Oriental 1E had a nice system to distinguishing styles and maneuvers.

Overall a fan of Katana = Bastard Sword, Wakizashi = Short Sword and such myself. At least mechanics wise. I dont mis the days of the 3d6 Katana.

I like the idea of keeping it to Short/Long/Bastard/Great Sword if you want to keep real world styles out of it. Also keeps it ethnically neutral and many cultures had versions of those swords.

mdt wrote:

I really wish there were rules for a hook sword.

I've never seen official rules for them but we house ruled them a while back.

Pathfinderish they would be:
Exotic Weapon: Light
1d6 17-20 x2 with the disarm and trip features.

For hook sword, you could do something like khopesh - an exotic longsword that can be used to trip.

Just need to add that reach aspect in there. Possibly as a move action initially with the Exotic Weapon Proficiency, later as a swift action with Weapon Focus, finally as a free action with Weapon Specialization?

-Weylin

Kolokotroni wrote:

mdt wrote:

I really wish there were rules for a hook sword.

I've never seen official rules for them but we house ruled them a while back.

Pathfinderish they would be:
Exotic Weapon: Light
1d6 17-20 x2 with the disarm and trip features.

Hmmm, I like that. Very nice. I think I'll yoink it for my game. So, small would be 1d4 and large 1d8?

Kolokotroni wrote:

mdt wrote:

I really wish there were rules for a hook sword.

I've never seen official rules for them but we house ruled them a while back.

Pathfinderish they would be:
Exotic Weapon: Light
1d6 17-20 x2 with the disarm and trip features.

Hmmm, I like that. Very nice. I think I'll yoink it for my game. So, small would be 1d4 and large 1d8?

Weylin wrote:

Just need to add that reach aspect in there. Possibly as a move action initially with the Exotic Weapon Proficiency, later as a swift action with Weapon Focus, finally as a free action with Weapon Specialization?

-Weylin

That's what the Lunge feat is on the feat list for.

Hooked swords with reach combined with Lunge would be fun combination for a monk when an opponent is certain he is out of reach.

On unusual weapons, anyone ever seen a decent official write-up for rope dart?

-Weylin

mdt wrote:

Weylin wrote:

Just need to add that reach aspect in there. Possibly as a move action initially with the Exotic Weapon Proficiency, later as a swift action with Weapon Focus, finally as a free action with Weapon Specialization?

-Weylin

That's what the Lunge feat is on the feat list for.

I see the hook swords' reach ability being part fo the weapon not part of the wielder personally. So I would add reach to the weapon.

Hooked swords with reach combined with Lunge would be fun combination for a monk when an opponent is certain he is out of reach.

On unusual weapons, anyone ever seen a decent official write-up for rope dart?

-Weylin

As to the rope dart, no, but I would love to see a write-up for the Kusari Gama. That's a weapon I could see being both reach and close and having trip.

I think he's talking about gaining reach by hooking the hook ends of two hook swords together and wielding them as one (example).

I also recommend the wiki article linked above.

I think he's talking about gaining reach by hooking the hook ends of two hook swords together and wielding them as one (example).

I also recommend the wiki article linked above.

Ok, that would be a feat though, not a monk specific ability. Honestly though, while it is cool, and it would hurt a lot to get hurt by the swinging blade, I'm relatively certain that it wouldn't survive more than one hit before you lost one of the sword's as it got flung off into a random direction away from you. So, kind of a one-shot deal.

Exactly, hook swords are tradionally used in pairs. Interlocking and unlcoking them is part of learning to use the weapon. Once interlocked they are surprisingly secure. They give you about a 8 to 10 reach without you having to take a step.

Since they would take an Exotic Weapon Proficiency to learn them, I dont think requiring another feat should be necessary. It is a function of learning to even wield them in first place.

Having seen them demonstrated in person several times, they are good for more than one strike. Usually you only catch the target with the last 2-3 inches of the termnal blade on the hilt. The cresent blade also allow for close combat. Overall, they are brilliantly designed weapons.

Also keep in mind that the weapons used in most martial arts schools are lighter and have far more give to them. The jian, dao and pu dao are prime examples...the flex of the blade was not part of the actual battle field weapons.

I would think kusari-gama and kyoketsu-shoge would be easy to stat up. For the kusari-gama use the kama and add a reach entangle and reach disarm abilities. Kyoketsu-shoge could be done the same way with using a dagger as the base weapon.

-Weylin

Exactly, hook swords are tradionally used in pairs. Interlocking and unlcoking them is part of learning to use the weapon. Once interlocked they are surprisingly secure. They give you about a 8 to 10 reach without you having to take a step.

Since they would take an Exotic Weapon Proficiency to learn them, I dont think requiring another feat should be necessary. It is a function of learning to even wield them in first place.

Having seen them demonstrated in person several times, they are good for more than one strike. Usually you only catch the target with the last 2-3 inches of the termnal blade on the hilt. The cresent blade also allow for close combat. Overall, they are brilliantly designed weapons.

Also keep in mind that the weapons used in most martial arts schools are lighter and have far more give to them. The jian, dao and pu dao are prime examples...the flex of the blade was not part of the actual battle field weapons.

I would think kusari-gama and kyoketsu-shoge would be easy to stat up. For the kusari-gama use the kama and add a reach entangle and reach disarm abilities. Kyoketsu-shoge could be done the same way with using a dagger as the base weapon.

-Weylin

I fully agree that even a monk should have to take Exotic Weapon Proficiency to use hook swords, kusari-gama or kyoketsu-shoge. But if they take it, I feel they should gain full use of the weapon's abilities considering it does so with any other exotic weapon.

Weapons like these are part of where individual proficiency start to break down in my view and why I prefer weapon groups. And really the whoe proficiency system as a whole to me.

-Weylin

I fully agree that even a monk should have to take Exotic Weapon Proficiency to use hook swords, kusari-gama or kyoketsu-shoge. But if they take it, I feel they should gain full use of the weapon's abilities considering it does so with any other exotic weapon.

Weapons like these are part of where individual proficiency start to break down in my view and why I prefer weapon groups. And really the whoe proficiency system as a whole to me.

-Weylin

Weylin wrote:

I fully agree that even a monk should have to take Exotic Weapon Proficiency to use hook swords, kusari-gama or kyoketsu-shoge. But if they take it, I feel they should gain full use of the weapon's abilities considering it does so with any other exotic weapon.

Weapons like these are part of where individual proficiency start to break down in my view and why I prefer weapon groups. And really the whoe proficiency system as a whole to me.

-Weylin

I use the weapon groups from Unearth Arcana myself. They work nicely IMHO.

-Weylin