Are there any quality multiclass builds for the summoner now that they APG is out. By quality I mean both Survivable and Fun. I either want to give myself more spells or hit with more dmg.

My thought was Summoner/ Rogue or Summoner/Ranger...Help
or Summoner/ Sorc

Tip: Multiclassing a summoner is not the best idea in the world, as you would lag behind on your evolution pool and spellcasting. If this does not bother you, go nuts.

In the words of a certain fishy admiral:

"IT'S A TRAP!"

if you have to multiclass a summoner I would go summoner wizard - the sorc while haveing versatility lags behind on when it gets spells made worse by multiclassing IMHO

maybe summoner bard? both cast cast in light armor also gains some extra healing spells - not great but similar overlaping abilities

As with most spellcasting classes, you want to consider multiclassing very carefully. In the case of the summoner, with so much of the core concept (eidolon, SLAs) based on class level and not just spell progression (and the current lack of prestige classes based around the summoner), you probably should only consider a 1-4 level "dip" in another class. Taking half-elf is probably the best option, since it allows the favored class bonus of adding +1/4 to the evolution pool per summoner level.

You still have some interesting possibilities:

Barbarian (Beast Totem or Fiend Totem)/Summoner - instead of (or as well as) infusing yourself with the power of your totem, you call upon it to take physical form.

Summoner/Bard - you summon creatures and use Bardic Performance to buff them.

Cavalier/Summoner - your eidolon is your mount

Fighter/Summoner - several possibilities including Archer/Crossbowman with pet, Mounted Combat, and various teamwork feats/tactics.

Oracle/Summoner - depends heavily on the oracle's mystery and the concept, but has some potential.

Ranger/Summoner - you get a better/more customizable "Animal Companion."

Rogue/Summoner - an easy way to set up flanking is to summon creatures.

Witch/Summoner - even with two spellcasting abilities (Int, Cha) and the spell failure chance from armor with witch casting (can be mitigated with Arcane Armor Training), a couple unlimited use Hexes (or more with the Extra Hex feat) can be worth it.

As with most spellcasting classes, you want to consider multiclassing very carefully. In the case of the summoner, with so much of the core concept (eidolon, SLAs) based on class level and not just spell progression (and the current lack of prestige classes based around the summoner), you probably should only consider a 1-4 level "dip" in another class. Taking half-elf is probably the best option, since it allows the favored class bonus of adding +1/4 to the evolution pool per summoner level.

You still have some interesting possibilities:

Barbarian (Beast Totem or Fiend Totem)/Summoner - instead of (or as well as) infusing yourself with the power of your totem, you call upon it to take physical form.

Summoner/Bard - you summon creatures and use Bardic Performance to buff them.

Cavalier/Summoner - your eidolon is your mount

Fighter/Summoner - several possibilities including Archer/Crossbowman with pet, Mounted Combat, and various teamwork feats/tactics.

Oracle/Summoner - depends heavily on the oracle's mystery and the concept, but has some potential.

Ranger/Summoner - you get a better/more customizable "Animal Companion."

Rogue/Summoner - an easy way to set up flanking is to summon creatures.

Witch/Summoner - even with two spellcasting abilities (Int, Cha) and the spell failure chance from armor with witch casting (can be mitigated with Arcane Armor Training), a couple unlimited use Hexes (or more with the Extra Hex feat) can be worth it.

This is Perfect thank you soo much for not just automatically saying NO b/c of spells. I barely cast as it is(2 spells /day) so I am looking for something from other classes that make it more fun and a cooler concept over all. I agree 1-4 alt. level dip is all a caster can afford. Keep talking along this line...

Are there any quality multiclass builds for the summoner now that they APG is out. By quality I mean both Survivable and Fun. I either want to give myself more spells or hit with more dmg.

My thought was Summoner/ Rogue or Summoner/Ranger...Help
or Summoner/ Sorc

Some people multi-class just to 'multi-class' and in general have regrets later on about it.

My suggestion would be to decide what you WANT from your PC, and seek whatever mechanical build achieves it. If your 'summoner' winds up being a druid or a wizard then so be it.

Don't let the mechanics or names of things in the mechanics get in the way.

In general the mechanical summoner class is poorly built and was not designed to play well with others in terms of multiclassing or even with PrCing.

-James

My suggestion is don't. Summoner over any other class loses more than any other class in multiclassing while gaining very little.

I am thinking instead of saying no or saying carefully consider. I think a single level dip into another class is a great option for nearly any class....

Reasons
Society play caps at level 12
Lots of home games cap (officially or unofficially)

I would say do the dip at second level or start play with the other class, soon that dip becomes more and more expensive to make......

Wizard really will help with spell access rather than limiting you to the summoner spell list, scribe scroll to keep your slots open is also a good thing......

I actually enjoy a muti- druid1/wizard1
6 orisons = awesome!

Yeah you are right I have never played a pc til twenty. We always end somewhere around 9-10.i think a dip into a rogue or wizard can be ok, as long as you dont do it a lot.

Some guy in mi group is doing a summoner/cleric/ mystic theurge. He conviced the DM to allow the MT increases to go to both spells and eidolon (but he doesn't get the other summoner abilities).

So far has worked ok.

I would say do the dip at second level or start play with the other class, soon that dip becomes more and more expensive to make......

Actually whenever you make this dip, you keep paying for it as you level.

You recognize that at a certain point being a summonerX and leveling it's better to become a summonerX+1 than a summonerX/other1. That's the meaning of 'that dip becomes more and more expensive to make'.

However if you're already a summonerX-1/other1 going to level into a summonerX/other1, you have to logically admit that you'd rather be becoming a summonerX+1.

Upshot is don't do it in general.

If you have something specific in mind then see how much it costs you, as you will continue to pay for it as you level. In essence with just a level of something else as a 'dip' you will be a level behind what you would otherwise be. What do you have that balances that out?

Multi-classing is fine in that you get to build your own class.

Doing it just to multi-class is a road to disappointment.

And in an organized campaign, you're stuck with that character until you start up a completely new one from 1st level. If you're playing with a set group and you only realize that the dip at 2nd level really is too much when you're 8th level... guess what? Bad news.

Look ahead and plan it out. Multi-classing is work. You're designing your own class rather than taking a pre-designed one. Those pre-designed classes have the work already done for them (by and large), but your random combination does not. Do the work.

-James

gnomewizard wrote:

Are there any quality multiclass builds for the summoner now that they APG is out. By quality I mean both Survivable and Fun. I either want to give myself more spells or hit with more dmg.

My thought was Summoner/ Rogue or Summoner/Ranger...Help
or Summoner/ Sorc

Some people multi-class just to 'multi-class' and in general have regrets later on about it.

My suggestion would be to decide what you WANT from your PC, and seek whatever mechanical build achieves it. If your 'summoner' winds up being a druid or a wizard then so be it.

Don't let the mechanics or names of things in the mechanics get in the way.

In general the mechanical summoner class is poorly built and was not designed to play well with others in terms of multiclassing or even with PrCing.

-James

Word

I am doing it with a PFS character. At second level, he swings a big sword for 2d6+7 damage, casts 7 cantrips and 6 spells a day, and have a built in flanking buddy for teamwork feats. He looks like a human barbarian with a pack mule as he wanders through town, but in reality he is a Transmuter 1 ~ Summoner N that fights with every dirty trick in the book. Once he gets to third level, both will have Precise Strike so that a combined four flanking attacks a round will have an additional +d6 precision damage stacked on to each.
If you are interested, I can detail him out.

I would normally advise against multiclassing a summoner, for the same reasons many others have already stated above (the lag in evolution points for your eidolon, in particular). BUT....The possibilities of a Summoner/Druid are both intriguing and terrifying (Natural Spell is a must for this build).

I have noticed most of what people are saying about the summoner and I couldn't really agree more but, and I hate to see this, I think it is almost necessary to multiclass, at least in organized play, just to keep you saves up.

I am planning making a summoner and I was planning a Paladin/Summoner mix using the eidolon as mount.

But I think for the sake of survivability I have accepted that this character will just not be the meat of the party; he will make a nice accessory and he will be fun to play but... and in the end I think that will make up for a little less than optimized play.

I have noticed most of what people are saying about the summoner and I couldn't really agree more but, and I hate to see this, I think it is almost necessary to multiclass, at least in organized play, just to keep you saves up.

It's not worth it.

Don't save your saves but lose your character.

In organized play its essential that you can pull your weight, and having two dead levels is going to make that neigh impossible.

-James

I would suggest a summoner/rogue. By taking just one level in rogue, you will have the +3 class skill bonus in all rogue skills and 1d6 sneak attack damage. Take Precise strike for both you and your eidolon, and now you are doing +2d6 damage when flanking with your pet. Additional feats could be spent on skill focus to up your thieving skills. Make the character a half-elf, and you can balance out the loss of evolution points by taking the their summoner favored class option.
All in all, you end up with a still decent summoner with some extra options at their disposal.

I wish Paizo would come out with more prestige classes or feats that help out with multiclassing, like how the Eldritch Knight does or the multiclass feats from 3.5e were.

This is just a crazy musing, but if you're thinking about summoner/rogue, what about prestiging into Arcane Trickster? Could be fun to have the eidolon help with tricksy things.

The downside is that levels of Arcane Trickster would not help your eidolon progress, meaning at high levels it would be limited in what it could do for you.

My advice? Think about your character, your character's background and concept. Write down a few key words about his personality and what he should be skilled in and capable of. If summoner doesn't fit your concept perfectly, add a level in something else that helps that summoner be exactly as you imagine him. Is he highly skilled and the 2 skill points a level +Int aren't doing it for you? Consider rogue or bard. Do you plan on using your eidolon as a mount? LOVE the idea of the summoner/cavalier in that case. Do you just want to be able to jump into combat yourself and have a not completely laughable BAB? Add a fighter level or two.

Build your concept and build around what your party needs--which we here can't possibly be certain of. If you're encountering a lot of puzzles and traps, that may demand something different of your character than if, say, you're fighting a lot of undead.

Most importantly, have fun.

I wish Paizo would come out with more prestige classes or feats that help out with multiclassing, like how the Eldritch Knight does or the multiclass feats from 3.5e were.

Well it would have been nice if Paizo had designed the classes with multiclassing in mind.

Looking at classes like the summoner I can't think of a way they could have made it less multiclassing friendly without adding back something like the old Paladin/Monk restrictions on multiclassing.

-James

The way I see the summoner class is: "Muahaha! I am the puppetmaster!"

If you want to multiclass THAT, take a couple levels of rogue so you can just hide in the shadows while your super-buffed eidolon takes out the bad guys.

I could see taking one level of Rogue for the skills, or two for Evasion, and never looking back. Being one spell level behind is okay. However, I wonder if the concept wouldn't work just as well as a Summoner with Skill Focus (Stealth). I could see Ranger 1/Summoner X for weapon proficiencies and skills, but there is no point in going down that road because they don't build powers in the same areas. You would be splitting your advancement between pet/arcane controller and pet/divine buffer/skils/combat, which is just way too much spread, even when you take into the account your caster level will be low and your spells will be low level.

Summoner/Sorcerer is... wrong. What you need instead is some kind of feat or alternate class feature or favored class bonus that lets you add a few cherry-picked wizard spells to your spells known. Some kind of prestige class that melded sorcerer and summoner would be okay, but it would be kind of a trainwreck. You'd give up some of the summoner's specialized abilities, as well as a sorcerer's bloodline powers, and deal with a slightly lower caster level, in order to both have a pet and powerful offense (which would still be somewhat weakened by multiclassing). An arcane sorcerer would be stuck with a dud familiar, a weak eidolon, and would trade high level spells basically for having extra summon and buff spells. I'd say either be a sorcerer who summons things a lot, or be a summoner. A wizard (conjuror) or sorcerer (particularly one of the outer planes bloodlines) is also a viable summoner but can cast offensively.

The only viable option IMO is one level of bard, because it has perfect spell/skill synergy and the +1 atk/dmg morale song affects both Eidolon and party. But it will of course still be slightly weaker than a full summoner.

If you are looking for party synergy multiclass: witch with evil eye cackle even if they make the save you can keep evil eye on them as long as you spend the move action. lower saves ac primarily and build an eidolon with grapple and poison, web other SoS features

Well it would have been nice if Paizo had designed the classes with multiclassing in mind.

Looking at classes like the summoner I can't think of a way they could have made it less multiclassing friendly without adding back something like the old Paladin/Monk restrictions on multiclassing.

Just for the record, I don't think that's an accident. PF is clearly a much less pro-multiclassing game than 3.X.

james maissen wrote:

Well it would have been nice if Paizo had designed the classes with multiclassing in mind.

Looking at classes like the summoner I can't think of a way they could have made it less multiclassing friendly without adding back something like the old Paladin/Monk restrictions on multiclassing.

Just for the record, I don't think that's an accident. PF is clearly a much less pro-multiclassing game than 3.X.

This is 100% correct. Pathfinder is designed to pigeon-hole all characters into their primary class designations. If you want to Rage, you are a barbarian. Period. It is one of the reasons I have a love hate relationship with the game. On the one hand, the class options for remaining "pure" are fantastic. On the other hand, there are character concepts that are just not possible.

I remain hopeful that Ultimate Combat/Magic will ameliorate this issue which the APG failed to do.

*******
So, in reference to the OP. When it comes to characters, and casters in particular, if you want them optimized you must remain "pure". Now character concept always trumps optimization, so if you see your character doing something other than the class is described as doing, work in the new class. Any combination can work, but very few end up being more optimized.

[an example mentioned above about the Eldritch Knight states that it is a great marriage of the melee and caster, but lets be honest, he does not have the potential of either the true warrior or the true caster]

[an example mentioned above about the Eldritch Knight states that it is a great marriage of the melee and caster, but lets be honest, he does not have the potential of either the true warrior or the true caster]

Actually...no it's not. It needs class abilities to actually help with the marriage, just BAB and spell casting makes it into a gimped wizard really.

Doc Cosmic wrote:

[an example mentioned above about the Eldritch Knight states that it is a great marriage of the melee and caster, but lets be honest, he does not have the potential of either the true warrior or the true caster]

Actually...no it's not. It needs class abilities to actually help with the marriage, just BAB and spell casting makes it into a gimped wizard really.

Right, which is exactly what I said, only in more polite language :)

Cold Napalm wrote:

Doc Cosmic wrote:

[an example mentioned above about the Eldritch Knight states that it is a great marriage of the melee and caster, but lets be honest, he does not have the potential of either the true warrior or the true caster]

Actually...no it's not. It needs class abilities to actually help with the marriage, just BAB and spell casting makes it into a gimped wizard really.

Right, which is exactly what I said, only in more polite language :)

Bah polite just goes over my head :P .

How about multi-classing with the Shadow Dancer and seeing if your DM will let you link summon shadow to you edilon. Not sure how it would be done but I'd allow it as DM as it would be cool concept.

Are there any quality multiclass builds for the summoner now that they APG is out. By quality I mean both Survivable and Fun. I either want to give myself more spells or hit with more dmg.

My thought was Summoner/ Rogue or Summoner/Ranger...Help
or Summoner/ Sorc

I suggest you have a chat with your gm and see if he will work with you on a feat or something to keep progressing the eidolon. A summoner with multi classing is going to be tough if the eidolon falls way behind.