A Memory of Darkness (GM Reference)


Second Darkness


Hopefully others can use this thread to clarify questions arising in this adventure. If you happen to see another thread, please link post a link in this one to try and keep things tied together.

Chapter 1: Shadow in the Sky
Chapter 2: Children of the Void
Chapter 3: The Armageddon Echo
Chapter 4: Endless Night
Chapter 5: A Memory of Darkness
Chapter 6: Descent into Midnight


"In the next week or so, we're expecting to ship the next volume of your subscription."

And remember, if you see anything, post them here!

Enjoy

Dark Archive

When Hialin transforms into a drow, should we recalculate his stat-block to account for him changing from a gray elf into a drow by giving him the appropriate stat enhancements, spell-like abilities and spell resistance and whatnot, or do we use the given statblock (in other words the transformation into drow isn't completely instantaneous)?

(Oh, and why does it have to be so obvious that Hialin is the evil Winter Council member? I mean if I show the illustration to my players it isn't going to be much of a shock when he turns against them... D&D is black and white enough as it is, it is a good illustration but you could have made him sinister without making him so obviously evil.)

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Atrocious wrote:
When Hialin transforms into a drow, should we recalculate his stat-block to account for him changing from a gray elf into a drow by giving him the appropriate stat enhancements, spell-like abilities and spell resistance and whatnot, or do we use the given statblock (in other words the transformation into drow isn't completely instantaneous)?

If he's going to keep fighting the PCs after he transforms, I'd absolutely recommend giving him SR and the stat boosts. Unless you want to rebuild his stats before hand, though, I wouldn't bother doing much more than just giving him SR and increasing the save DCs of his spells by 1, since he probably won't be around long enough for the majority of players to appreciate the subtle mechanical differences in his stats.

Atrocious wrote:
(Oh, and why does it have to be so obvious that Hialin is the evil Winter Council member? I mean if I show the illustration to my players it isn't going to be much of a shock when he turns against them... D&D is black and white enough as it is, it is a good illustration but you could have made him sinister without making him so obviously evil.)

Sometimes, being obvious is refreshing. Adventure writers too often try to double and triple think the reader/GM and make their plots WAY too complicated by adding twists and turns. I think that a lot of adventures (and GMs too, honestly) are too enamored with the concept of tricking the PCs, to be honest. Now and then setting something up that obviously looks like it's going one way and then IT GOES THAT WAY is almost a surprise in and of itself. :-)

That said, if you DO want to try to surprise your players with who's the one who turns into a drow, it's a simple enough process to simply swap personalities between the elves.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
James Jacobs wrote:
That said, if you DO want to try to surprise your players with who's the one who turns into a drow, it's a simple enough process to simply swap personalities between the elves.

Arlindl (swap out sleet storm or spike growth for stone shape and you can run the "big reveal" unchanged) would probably make the best alternative to Hialin, with his despair driving him over the edge to nihilism. You wouldn't even have to completely swap personalities as much as emphasize or soften their already existing personality traits.


How is it that I went to UC Davis from 1987 to 1993 and managed to miss out on James' D&D games? Bummer.


According to the sidebar info of the Maleficus Spike (p. 25) non-outsider evil creatures are also affected, albeit to a far lesser extent than evil outsiders.
Why isn't Hialin affected?

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Neil Mansell wrote:

According to the sidebar info of the Maleficus Spike (p. 25) non-outsider evil creatures are also affected, albeit to a far lesser extent than evil outsiders.

Why isn't Hialin affected?

Because Hialin is already inside the fortress. It's worded a little poorly, alas, but non-outsider evil creatures only have to make the one save when they enter Thorn's End, and don't have to keep making saves every round. "The effect is lessened" means that Hialin only has to make the save when he enters Thorn's End and that's it; once he's in, he's fine until he leaves and tries to re-enter.


Who's the elf ranger on the cover? A shin'rakorath warrior? Or some specific NPC, I think the latter as I can't pin him down as someone.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

vagrant-poet wrote:
Who's the elf ranger on the cover? A shin'rakorath warrior? Or some specific NPC, I think the latter as I can't pin him down as someone.

He's just a standard shin'rakorath elf.


James Jacobs wrote:
vagrant-poet wrote:
Who's the elf ranger on the cover? A shin'rakorath warrior? Or some specific NPC, I think the latter as I can't pin him down as someone.
He's just a standard shin'rakorath elf.

Cool, he rocks by the way. As does the hezrou in the Set Piece, sincerely hope that hezrou gets recycled for the bestiary. That said, you guys illustrate fiends so well I'll probably love them more anyway!


As a gm I think that this is one of the more challenging adventures to run. The motivations of the PCs don't necessarily mesh well with some of the objectives of the adventure. When I say this I'm thinking mainly of getting the Winter Council together for a meeting. The meeting is important because it gives Hailin the chance to be near the Malifess Spike, take it out and then turn into a drow. The demons then have a chance to start entering Thorn's End. All this has the potential to be really cool climax to the adventure, but as far as I can tell the PCs (at least the group I have) don't have much reason to want to get a council meeting together. They have come for vengeance. They know the Winter Council tried to capture them/kill them. They can't think of any good reason why the council would do this when all they did was come to try to warn the elves of impending doom, and Qualindra has also worked to play on this desire for vengeance to get them on her side and bring them to Thorn's End. Thus, upon arriving at Thorn's End they aren't really looking to chit chat with the council members and organize meetings, though they would like to find out why the council tried to have them offed and what is going on. Fortunately for most gms the PCs likely won't go in guns blazing because they are probably a little beat up after treking through the demon infested Tangle briar.

My heroes were in dire need of rest when they arrived (However, my version of the campaign is in 4E and the heroes can't easily teleport back to civilization after taking some licks). They had no interest in parlaying with a small army of demons (and I don't know what party would), so they opted to try to sneak in through a window. They then encountered some of the guards, and after a brief initial skirmish they decided to try some diplomacy if only so that they could get a safe place to rest before they turn on the inhabitants of Thorn's End and start beating some answers out of them. In order to prevent this from happening, I'm going to have to do some finesse dm to hopefully gently nudge them into a more diplomatic approach (of course if they decide to start hacking their way through the fortress I'm ready for that as well). However here are some notes that dms might find useful to help with the social interactions. Currently the heroes have told the guards that they stumbled through a portal after helping to purge the portal network of an evil banshee and found their way here purely by accident and now want a place to rest and recover- the best part about the bluff is that it's basically true.

Thorn’s End

A reminder to the characters: They know what the Winter Council is. They have evidence that the Winter Council tried to have them captured/killed; however, they don’t know why, and they haven’t really been able to come up with a good explanation. They’ve come for payback, but at the same time they should probably be looking for answers.

Armiristril will go to fetch Malindil. Malindil wants to meet the Pcs before giving them permission to camp at Thorn’s End. She is suspicious of them and wants to be sure about their intentions, so she decides to come meet them in the great hall.

When She arrives she has a grim and sorrowful look on her face.

“Travelers, I am Malindil. I am the Commander in Chief of the defenses here at Thorn’s End. It is my job to ensure the safety of the residents of this stronghold, and as you can plainly see we are currently under siege. It is my understanding that you wish to rest here and recover from the trials of your travels through the Tanglebriar. If that is your wish, then you must first convince me that you pose no danger Thorn’s End. Our wards protect us from the demons for the time being, but they don’t protect us from mortals who have been coerced into aiding the fiends. Tell me who you are, and how you came to arrive here.”

After they tell their tale again she responds.

“I know of the Elfgate of which you speak. Still, it is some distance from here and it would have required a significant and dangerous overland journey through the twisted demon infested briar to get from there to here, and it seems unlikely that you would just chance upon this place. What are you really doing here?”

At this point they can make a Bluff vs Insight if they wish to stick with their story. If they succeed she responds:

“Fine, for now I will accept your story. You may rest here for the night. But you must remain in this room, and you will be placed under guard. I also insist, as a show of good faith, that you put your weapons on the table for the time being. This room is protected from our enemies and if your intentions are true you will have no need of them.”

If the heroes comply she goes on to say.

“Rest now, your weariness is plain. We will speak more in the morning.

She whispers to Armistil on her way out “Armistil keep a close eye on these travelers. I do not fully trust them.” He nods in reply.

If Adam insists on keeping his weapon she will agree as long as he agrees to stand in place. If he moves she orders the guards to consider it a hostile action and act accordingly.

After she leaves Armistil apologizes for Malindil.

“I apologize if mistress Malindil seems cold or dour. These are dark times for us. Several years ago we were betrayed by one of our own. This was particularly hard on her, and she has been a different person ever since. The experience certainly hasn’t made her someone eager to place their trust in strangers.”

If the heroes pry into the nature of the betrayal Armistil says the following:

“I have sworn not to speak of the incident, so I cannot speak of it. I can tell you that morale is low here and we could all stand for some cheering up. I know that you need your rest, but I see that you carry an instrument, perhaps you’d be kind enough to grace us with some music.”

If Lyvander plays for the guards then he can make a diplomacy check to help improve their disposition towards him. They are currently indifferent. A DC 27 Diplomacy will move them to friendly.

If this check is successful Armistil will be much more open with the Pcs.

“You are a gifted performer Lyvander. I can think of some of other people residing here that would surely benefit from your musical talents. I know that you are likely in a hurry to leave these forsaken lands and return home, but if you in the morrow you have the desire, perhaps you could stay a while longer and share your gifts with some of the others.”

If asked about the others, Armistil will reply.

“I am but a humble servant. Mistress Malindil and her peers are the ones in charge. I will leave it up to her to decide how much she wishes to tell you of them. They are private individuals, and do not appreciate it when strangers pry into their affairs.”

After that he gives the heroes a chance to rest. He remains vigilant through the night, not bothering to take his armor off when he meditates for a few hours. Thorn’s End guards keep a close watch on the Pcs.

The next morning they will bring the heroes a simple breakfast along with water. While they are eating Malindil will return, and she and Armistil will wish to know what their intentions are. Armistil will be certain to mention Lyvander’s bardic talents and recommed them to Malindil

“You should see this one play his lute. He is a gifted musician and song writer. You would do well to listen to him. It might help brighten your spirits. His music has certainly brought me cheer that I have not felt in a long time.”

Malindil nods

“Yes it probably would, but I am not in the mood for songs right now. Travelers, you have had a chance to rest. What are your intentions?”

If they offer to provide entertainment for her and her colleagues then she will ponder their request for a moment before responding.

“Well if you are as skilled as Armistil says you are then perhaps you could be of some help. Arlindil has been as morose as ever and he hasn’t left his chambers in weeks. When I spoke of you to him last night he did express an interest in meeting you, but couldn’t bring himself to leave his quarters. I think that we will have to go to him. Bring your loot, but leave your weapons. They will be kept safe here.”

If Adam insists on bringing Dante she will grudgingly allow it, but she will insist that two guards accompany him, and that he stay out in the hall. Of course he will likely stay and guard their gear. If that is the case Armistil might challenge him to a sparing match.

Assuming that Lyvander performs. He can again make a diplomacy check to help make Malindil and Armistil more receptive of them. If it is successful then they both enjoyed his songs. He sees them smile and Malindil puts her hand on his shoulder and he take hold of it. It is clear that they have some sort of relationship.

Malindil does the taking.

“Thank you for your performance Lyvander. You have reminded us both of the cheer that we’d forgotten exists in this world, and you’ve brought a measure of peace to our hearts during these dark times.

Now we would like to help you. We know that you wish to be on your way home. How can we help you get there safely?”

Sooner or later the heroes are going to have to put aside their charade and start trying to get some answers out of them. This is a likely point for this to happen. If it does some diplomacy or intimidation checks will be needed to avoid a fight, as both Malindil and Arlindil will be very upset once they discover they’ve been deceived. Their attitudes will instantly turn to hostile. If the heroes can pacify them are force them to surrender they may be able to get some answers out of them.

Skill Challenge: Complexity 2 (6 successes before 3 failures) Intimidate (DC 30 if the heroes are unarmed) and Diplomacy (DC 26) are the key skills.

Insight (DC 30): Might notice that although Malindil is upset, finally getting all this out in the open is relieving to her. If this is played upon one can gain a +2 to a diplomacy check.

Religion (DC 26): could recall that part of worship to Callistria involves taking revenge on one’s enemies for slights against them. Therefore, they should understand the need of the heroes to come here on such pretenses and be deceptive. This could grant a +2 to a diplomacy if the PC uses it to try to excuse their actions.

Nature (DC 26): The heroes can see that Arlindil is likely partially weighed down by the perversion to the forest that the demons have wrought and that any offer to help deal with them might garner his good will. If this is played upon the hero gets +2 to diplomacy.

If the heroes fail the skill challenge combat ensues.

If the heroes pacify them then they can start an open dialogue with them, and Malindil and Arlindil will begin to answer some of their questions.

Neither of them have had much contact with the outside world of late, and they know nothing of any orders given to the Shin Rakorath to capture them. An insight check can help to confirm they are being truthful. They will direct them to the other councilors, but claim that none of councilors have had much interaction lately, and they aren’t on speaking terms of late. If they are pressed about the reasons for all of this they will give the story of Allevrah’s betrayal, but they will fail to mention that she was a drow. This might be deduced if the heroes make the connection between Alleverah of the Azrinae family and Allevrah of the Winter Council. This could well lead to the realization that Allevrah somehow became a drow or disguised herself as a drow. Malindil will likely encourage them to believe that she must have used her magic to disguise herself as a drow (an insight vrs her bluff check can discern she is lying). If called on the lie she will admit the truth, but she will make it plain that this a great secret among the eladrin and few outside the Winter Council know that such a transformation is possible. Working through this the heroes might come to realize that the reason they were attacked was because the Winter Council feared that the connection might be made that the Winter Council is partially responsible for the threat the eladrin face. However, neither Malindil nor Arlindil had anything to do with it. The two to investigate are Perelir and Hailen. However, Malindil proposes that the time has come for the Winter Council to hold a meeting. It has been far too long, and the problems of the council have been ignored and need to be addressed; furthermore, it will give the heroes a chance to make their case and grieve the injustice that has befallen them.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

About that anti-demon ward:

In my game, the group likely to arrive at Thorn's End will be Anka's body in a portable hole, Anka's soul in Quilindra's body (due to Magic Jar), and Quilindra's soul in a gemstone, possibly in the portable hole.

Will the ward stop Quilindra's body with a non-evil, non-outsider soul in it? Will it stop the gem, or does it only stop voluntary movement? And does putting something in the portable hole (an extra-dimensional space) make a difference?

If the ward doesn't stop either Q's body or her soul-in-gem, she will end up inside the wards when the Magic Jar runs out.

(The PC has been Magic Jar'ing Quilindra all the way through _Endless Night_, 18 hours out of every 24. As payment, Quilindra has been enjoying the fleshpots of Zirnakaynin 6 hours out of every 24. It's a weird turn of events but it seems to somehow meet the player's goals.... Anka would rather be a succubus than a drow, apparently.)

Mary


Has anybody else noticed that Quilindra's CR is only 14?
As a 10th level bard wouldn't it be higher than that considering that she's a Succubus?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
Neil Mansell wrote:

Has anybody else noticed that Quilindra's CR is only 14?

As a 10th level bard wouldn't it be higher than that considering that she's a Succubus?

Neil,

This is a rough guess, but I'm sure it has to do with associated class levels. I don't have any of my books handy, but that's the first thing that comes to mind. (And her CR might be different with PFRPG rules vs. v.3.5 rules... I'd have to cross-reference that to know for sure).

My twice-a-month Sunday game/group just started Second Darkness (and I'm GM-ing btw) so I'll definitely check out her CR, and probably update her when I get closer to "Memory of Darkness".

Anyone else have thoughts about Quilindra's CR?

Dean (TMW)


The_Minstrel_Wyrm wrote:
Neil Mansell wrote:

Has anybody else noticed that Quilindra's CR is only 14?

As a 10th level bard wouldn't it be higher than that considering that she's a Succubus?

Neil,

This is a rough guess, but I'm sure it has to do with associated class levels. I don't have any of my books handy, but that's the first thing that comes to mind. (And her CR might be different with PFRPG rules vs. v.3.5 rules... I'd have to cross-reference that to know for sure).

My twice-a-month Sunday game/group just started Second Darkness (and I'm GM-ing btw) so I'll definitely check out her CR, and probably update her when I get closer to "Memory of Darkness".

Anyone else have thoughts about Quilindra's CR?

Dean (TMW)

Hey, I think you may be onto something there.

Note that a Succubus is a CR 7 baddy (both in 3.5 and Pathfinder)
Apparently, a non-associated class (which apparently is a bard) is 1/2 CR per level... Until the class level (Bard) equals the hit dice of the succubus (6 HD). Thus a Bard 6 Succubus is a CR 10.

After that, each extra class level is worth a CR each. So that's 4 extra bard levels (which make up 10 levels in bard) are an extra 4 to the CR.

Thus CR 14 is indeed the correct CR for Quilindra.

Hmm... Am I the only one who felt that these older rules were overcomplicated? Now I need to convert her to Pathfinder. :S


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

Hi Neil,

Good to know I was able to help (and that I more or less had the right of it, even at midnight-ish/1 a.m.) wow... I need to go to bed.

Good Night, and Good Luck. ;)

TMW


I've just converted Quilindra to Pathfinder.
Interesting, Succubus have been assigned a 'combat' role in the bestiary. Thus, the bard is indeed a non-associated class for Qulindra.

From my calculations, she is now an 11th level bard and is still CR 14.
Neat.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
Neil Mansell wrote:

I've just converted Quilindra to Pathfinder.

Interesting, Succubus have been assigned a 'combat' role in the bestiary. Thus, the bard is indeed a non-associated class for Qulindra.

From my calculations, she is now an 11th level bard and is still CR 14.
Neat.

Hmmm... very neat indeed. (And it's funny that you mention about the role a succubus has, because after I said about associated class levels and you said you thought I had something with that, I began to doubt/wonder if bard was indeed non-associated. So, it's cool though that we've both learned that succubi are combat monsters, and thus spellcasting classes will indeed be non-associated classes.

So... bard 11 now is she... (wicked GM grin/smile as he thinks about what havoc/chaos she can wreck with the characters... should they ever get this far that is). >:D

Dean (TMW)


Im also Converting Memory to Pathfinder im going to do the sucubus later but I was wondering what people though about

Snowcaster Sentry

I think because the book ran out of room for these guys they were just put in as The earlier fighters which i dont really think fits (man under pathfinder that is one roided out potioned up hit squad for CR 6's) so what class do you think these guys should be?


Has anyone statted Auramesties? My group is casting true resurrection on him and setting him to righting the Council.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber

tbug,

Awesome ideas for the SD campaign. How did you deal with ...

Spoiler:
info on the existence of drow for the PCs, since they are already WC operatives?

Thanks!


Elorebaen wrote:

tbug,

Awesome ideas for the SD campaign. How did you deal with ...
** spoiler omitted **

Thanks!

Spoiler:
I told them up front. The players obviously all knew that a) drow exist in D&D and b) drow featured prominently in this adventure path. I told them that they were elite squads whose primary tasks included making sure that the drow were never seen on the surface world and that anyone who saw them didn't believe that he had (either because of great cover stories or memory alteration or death or whatever).

They've loved that whole secret agent/elves-in-black aspect of the game.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber
tbug wrote:
Elorebaen wrote:

tbug,

Awesome ideas for the SD campaign. How did you deal with ...
** spoiler omitted **

Thanks!

** spoiler omitted **

They've loved that whole secret agent/elves-in-black aspect of the game.

Cool, that's basically what I was thinking when I run it. Nice to see that it is actually working out.

Thanks!


It's hugely fun, but there's no question that it takes more prep time than just running it straight. If there's anything of mine you're interested in seeing please let me know.

Mary Yamato created a thread on the topic, and her insights are certainly worth reading.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber

Thank you for the info and offer. I really appreciate it. When I do run this AP you can bet I will be tapping your creative shoulder.

Best.


Tap away! I don't follow a board as closely once I've finished the pertinent AP, so if it seems I'm not responsive then stalk me off-site. :)

Twitter: daleEfriesen
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/dale.fb

We're currently between chapters five and six (following the red herring of another hole in the sky near Jol, as described in Curse of the Riven Sky so that they'll hopefully have enough equipment and gear to survive the finale). I doubt we'll finish before the end of the calender year, but we probably won't be playing far into 2011.


I wanted to give my PCs a chance to make an ally on the Winter Council, so I decided the banshee was Alindil's daughter. She managed to pursue Alleverah through the elf gate but was eventually slain in Marianath. The sound of her lute would haunt the PCs in the complex but finding it and returning it would make Arlindil an ally.

The PCs did find the body.... and promptly looted it. No Speak with Dead, no divinations, no nothing. No wondering about the strange music that stopped once they found the body.

Jump forward to Thorn's End. What's the very first room the PCs come to? Arlindil's. Who's the first PC through his door? The one wearing his dead daughter's armor.

So rather than make an ally, the PCs will be instantly fighting a member of the Winter's Council. The best laid plans of a DM, sigh.


A DM's Familiar dataset is now available for Memory of Darkness. It can be downloaded here.

DM's Familiar is a program you use at the gaming table to run your combat's faster and smoother, easily look up rules, and keep your game organized. The dataset contains the OGC creatures from the adventure so that you don't have to do any data entry!


So What are the levels for this adventure the Side trek says its for 11th level characters but I thought it was for 12 through 14


I have trouble with the motivation to even go after the winter council. As I understand the plot to this point the pcs have discovered the elves great nemesis is plotting the destruction of the elven lands and they have been brought to provide this information to the queen of the elves.

They tell their story, the queen says she will look into it and asks them to wait.

Don't they just wait? Why assume the elven nation is going to do nothing- they seem to have been actively investigating things in the previous 4 adventures.

They get attacked by a bunch of elven mooks/anarchists ( who they should defeat pretty easily) squawking about the winter council ( who they have never heard of before). Isn't their reaction likely to be ask someone who the winter council is?

They then either get nothing, or that it's a conservative elven shadow govt type advisory group.

Then they meet Quilindra who says the wc are bad elves trying to use the elven people for their own hidden agenda, she tried to organize a revolution and the wc stopped her, can you help me?

Surely the pcs say well is the wc likely to be allied with the drow seeking the destruction of Kyonin? No. So, sure they are nasty manipulative elven politicians but so what?

I don't really understand even why the queen thinks that she now has to send these people against the wc, just because of a coincidence in a name? Why is her govt at risk of collapse from the machinations of the wc ( who appear to have been largely paralysed for the last few years anyway) ? Surely the threat of an outside force who may bring about the destruction of the elven nation can be confirmed by divination then used by even a mediocre political operative to force the disparate political groups to pull together, thus consolidating the queens power, even to allow her to demand the wc explain why they have let it get this far.

I propose that the queen be portrayed as less scared of the political power of the wc. That she tell the pcs that the wc should have been on this but they appear to have dropped the ball and she can't get any clear answers from them. ( secret society seems to have gone a bit rogue) she doesn't want to start internal conflict but she wants to know what the heck is going on at Thorns End and why they haven't answered her summons.

I still haven't quite figured it out but I want the pcs to have a reason for going to thorns end other than the mook attack, the anarchist and the coincidental first name.

Any thoughts?


Its an adventure path where the first 2 books are really good, then the plot and motivations for the PCs actions make less and less sense. I remember hearing the part where they had to infiltrate the drow city as undercover with help from a elven necromancer. The cavalier backed right away from that. Undercover agents with no undercover skills in dense enemy territory results in alot of fleeing or alot of death.

As for the answer to your question, its difficult to help a side which is deliberately holding back important details. Its up to the DM to portray the elves as likable and making a lasting impression on the PCs. This in turn should facilitate the party in helping the elves. Based on their character and how they behave, fair amount of elven character behavior editing would be the only way to pull it off. A good-aligned party would probably do it after some hesitation. Neutrals and evils would just chuckle and get the heck out of dodge.


And some would never accept the body modification, for religious/purity reasons. Not only because it was a bad plan with a high chance of getting you and the rest of the party killed.

To me it seems like the pathmakers wanted to copy that part from Baldur's gate 2. A shout-out is great, but not every foolish quest will get players jumping to complete it. If you need someone to act like evil elves, send in some evil or hateful surface elves.


Werecorpse wrote:

I have trouble with the motivation to even go after the winter council. As I understand the plot to this point the pcs have discovered the elves great nemesis is plotting the destruction of the elven lands and they have been brought to provide this information to the queen of the elves.

The way it played out with my group, is that they were puzzled as to why no one was taking the threat as seriously as they were. When the Queen's adviser took them to meet her, then turned around and started second-guessing them at every turn and ridiculing their story while the Queen seemed uninterested, they were confused.

At some point, when the chamberlain's attention is elsewhere, the Queen's demeanor changes. She looks serious and catches the attention of the party, letting them know she's putting on an act. Then there's the subtle clue left at their guest house. The PCs have to do some reading between the lines. They figured the Queen couldn't be direct with them for some reason. Later, when they're attacked and the Winter Council is mentioned, they have a name to put on the mysterious "something" that's trying to contain them, especially when they put it together that the attackers were Shin'Rakoath mercenaries.

Later when they met Quilindra and she gave them the skinny on the Winter Council, they came to the conclusion that in order to help the elves mobilize against the threat of the drow, they'd have to deal with the Council. For some reason the Winter Council seemed intent on keeping the PCs' story from gaining credence. Are they allied with the drow? Are they just blind to the danger? There's no real answer to these questions, so the PCs decided it would be best to find out for themselves.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I've just gotten to this chapter in my own version of the campaign, and hit a bit of a snag...the players purposely left the Pleasure Prison without Quillindra. Sniffing a rat, the Cleric tried to Banish Quillindra, and when she made her save, he planeshifted the group away, leaving her behind.

I have an idea of how to fix this, but damn, talk about making life tough!


I need some advice on how to proceed... I'm in a pickle.

My group managed to knock out Tyrion in the last fight of the previous book and take him as a prisoner with them when they stepped through the portal.

How can everyone dismiss the drow when the group actually brought a live one with them?

Help! lol

Ultradan

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Ultradan wrote:

I need some advice on how to proceed... I'm in a pickle.

My group managed to knock out Tyrion in the last fight of the previous book and take him as a prisoner with them when they stepped through the portal.

How can everyone dismiss the drow when the group actually brought a live one with them?

Help! lol

Ultradan

You can always have him plead with Abyssal forces for a rescue, which could easily see him being teleported out of their hands into a darker fate. It is just as easy to have one of his family whisk him away with a limited Wish or some such as well.


Thredus necroidium!

I'm just finishing up Endless Night and thinking about how to tackle A Memory of Darkness. I was hoping to attract some discussion from the talented people who frequent these boards, particularly anyone who's already run it. Maybe even James Jacobs might appear as, busy as he is, he amazingly seems to make time to support products from the dim and distant past of the AP line! (thank you, James)

As well as any general pointers, I was particularly thinking about the Winter Council and the war in Tanglethorn.

Please note: I want as near as possible to keep the original story elements presented in the book, but I'm looking for ways to turn these up to 11, and at the same time iron out some of the weaker aspects of the plot that have been discussed.

I want to really play up the WC as a shadow government, explaining and justifying Queen Tellandia's political paralysis, and the lengths she goes to in order to expose/depose them by PC. As written, the WC doesn't credibly represent the threat it is supposed to (I suspect partly because of the necessity to stat the council as threats that can be faced by 12th lvl PCs!) There is also the question of why the elves don't help (more) at the end of Book 5 when the real threat is finally revealed.

My thought was to play up the seriousness of the Treerazor threat. If Kyonin's military are fully occupied on this front, containing the spread of Treerazor's corruption, this would explain why the elves have limited capacity to deal with corrupt elements in their own government and why they need the PCs to help with Allevrah in the Land of Blackblood. It could also give us the political backdrop for the WC to manipulate the government - perhaps the Shin'Rakorath are critical to the fight against Treerazor and therefore by controlling them, the WC have disproportionate influence.

To this end I thought about the Winter Council acting through two broad proxies: the Shin'Rakorath who provide military action to its will, and hidden agents in the government in key positions. The latter might be fairly autonomous, not knowing each other's identities and giving the sense that the WC agents and spies are everywhere, and perhaps more numerous than they actually are.

...This is all great in explaining how the WC exerts control in my GM head, but how do I effectively show this to the PCs? There needs to be enough in-game evidence that the WC are a threat or the whole plot loses its potency and breaks the suspension of disbelief

Liberty's Edge

Thanks for a lot of the interesting ideas here. I am running my second game of this particular book and was trying to work out the motivations myself and left a bit head scratching. But a lot of the ideas you guys present work. I'm also going to add a bit that Hailin may be more directly aligned with the Drow thus connecting the WC directly to the Drow.

This is a tough book to run.


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J-Bone wrote:

Thanks for a lot of the interesting ideas here. I am running my second game of this particular book and was trying to work out the motivations myself and left a bit head scratching. But a lot of the ideas you guys present work. I'm also going to add a bit that Hailin may be more directly aligned with the Drow thus connecting the WC directly to the Drow.

This is a tough book to run.

You're welcome, J-Bone.

Actually, I've just finished running Book 5 (Which I was dreading because of a lot of the comments surrounding it), and actually found it worked out really well. Pretty much none of the oft-mentioned issues arose for us, and we had a really satisfying time and conclusion to the chapter. I'll be updating my thread at some point with what happened and what I did differently to the book as written (in the end, not that much!)


Old thread I guess, but I'm just about ready to run this module, and I'm tripping over the levels. As I'm sure everyone knows, Endless Night ends with PCs at level 11, and A Memory of Darkness is for level 12-14 PCs. There's no downtime between books for an extra level. How have y'all handled this discrepancy?

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

The early Adventure Paths never gave enough XP, and expected you to add random encounters or side quests. Alternatively, you could just use milestone levelling, and ignore XP counts in favour of story beats.

Dark Archive

I've skipped book 4 completely; as we had a paladin and several good aligned persons in the group. I replaced this with an easy "the elf team sent to hunt for information on the drow have returned through the gate into the capital." They informed the players and the queen and court of all the exploits in the darklands. The reason for this was because of a mythic encounter earlier on, and mythic levels. I didn't want to have to edit book 4-6 for mythic stats, and as it turns out, book five picks up APL where the players are after book 3 (due to some mythic fights in the war). Anyway, the long and short of this is that because the Night of Arrows, one PC wants to exterminate every elf he sees... calm down calm down... And the rest of the group has been told by the queen that the winter council sent the assailants after them AFTER locking them in the prison... so the rest of the group don't really trust any of these stupid elves either. They didn't get to see the depravity of the Drow, but somehow the Drow now look more friendly than the elves.

And now they've been told by the queen to team up with Quilindra to get to the place they're going. Once she's "found out" (they already know she's evil), the queen's good reputation is out the window too. So I expect the one who "runs" the secret elf group to be a COMPLETE LOSS. There's no way they're making allies with the party after trying (nearly successfully, I'd add, as four members of six were KO'd in the battle) to kill them. It's not even going to be a discussion. The other three members? Maybe two of them are viable allies.

I'll have to do some serious tongue work to get the module to not just be a "See and Slay" adventure. Horribly written (the introduction to the winter council is like "hey, here's the elves, great bunch of folk, even if they did just try to kill you all two days ago!"), with convoluted plot, which leaves no good taste in anyone's mouth regarding any elves. But hey, it's been interesting, and I look forward to running the PCs through Galt, et al this week. They're all Drow in the waiting is another plot hole, as far as I'm concerned... the whole "suddenly turning into Drow" is nonsense of the highest order. It took 10,000 years for those who hid on Golarion... but hey, POOF! You're a Drow now! WTF is that?

other "typos" - the spike was never damaged, just pulled free long enough to escape. Stone to Flesh is not the spell used, but stone shape, to pull it free again.

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