I have been told by my players to post this for the opinions of others.

I felt that the RotRL game was very weak as an adventure path, the six individual tales never really tied together into a whole story and a lot of elements were just kind of thrown in by authors either at the behest of Paizo or to be cool, without contributing to the plot. My game had a TON of rewrites, so here is the breakdown. Do not read if you are planning on being a player in RotRL. Also note, that the game was played (and should always be played) with 7 players, or X players plus cohorts equaling a total of 7.

And that's my DM's Cut of Rise of the Runelords. Maybe one day I'll do Second Darkness seeing as that is the other weak AP.

I have been told by my players to post this for the opinions of others.

I felt that the RotRL game was very weak as an adventure path, the six individual tales never really tied together into a whole story and a lot of elements were just kind of thrown in by authors either at the behest of Paizo or to be cool, without contributing to the plot. My game had a TON of rewrites, so here is the breakdown. Do not read if you are planning on being a player in RotRL. Also note, that the game was played (and should always be played) with 7 players, or X players plus cohorts equaling a total of 7.

** spoiler omitted **...

1) I have to admit, while your campaign is VERY different from the actual AP, I think you have a good plotline for your campaign.

2) However, I hardly think that this is a weak AP. My players are only 3/4 through Burnt Offerings and they already are worried about Runelord magic. Now, there have been some side quests (Chopper's Isle, where they encountered the Sandpoint Devil and a shirne to Pazuzu -idea stolen from another thread, and dealing with the Attic Whisperer in the Academy, as well as several romances and roleplaying situations) AND they have a character who took Ancient Thassalonian as one of his languages (Elf Wizard- I still make him take a Linguistics test to read the Runes) so some of the scribblings and plots have been better furthered. But overall, I think this has been a Rock and Roll Rollercoaster of an adventure, and that's jsut starting.

I have no problem with the vague plot so far, but there are lots of clues as to what is going on if your players are willing to look a little and explore. (My players have been to the Old Light and have been trying to piece together the torn manuscripts found in the Catacombs of Wrath.)

I think every AP requires considerable tweaking by a Gm, as does any module or even an adventure you write yourself. No plan ever survives contact with the enemy. Or players.

for example, despite several warnings to keep away from Chopper's Isle, my players INSISTED on climbing to the top. Then they made a critical success to spot the secret entrance in the burnt out basement of the house. I believe in letting players get into their own trouble, so, despite the warnings and evidence of bad demonic things, they went down, eventually encoutnering the SPD. Somehow (actually a combination of several fumbles on the part of the SPD and some AMaZING teamwork by the players) the party of 6 2nd level herores managed to defeat the SPD...

I never planned for any of that, the SPD was supposed to be a villan after Skinsaw...

Also, I never expected the party to use a combination of "Linguistics: Thassalonian", unseen servant, and Mending to try and piece together the old books. When they succeed, they get a little piece of story or history...

so, yes, my players are getting a little more background than what is written in the adventure, but most of it is just the stuff from the GMs notes in the APs.

of course, the fact that Shoanti and Varisian tattoos sometimes look like Varisian Runes has got them thinking too...

The weaknesses don't really pop up until books 2 and 3. There's a lot of confusion going around with player information concerning the "Brothers of 7" who my first group thought was the enemy for quite some time, and its connection to the Skinsaw Cult. Book 3 especially had terrible continuity. The authors said before that the Kreeg house would've been better as a setpiece and I wholeheartedly agree.

The fort itself was cool, the nymph however seemed tacked on and the Hook Mountain clanhold was bland. Would've been better to have the Ogres and Barl launch a counterattack and assault the fort. Cutting Paradise from the book 3 was also a really bad idea as it would've played up the theme of Greed far better than the Chainsaw Massacre homage.

Though yes, if your players understand the 10,000 year old language it is easier to get some information on the background out, but still very hard to get information on what the hell is going on now out until Book 5.

The weaknesses don't really pop up until books 2 and 3. There's a lot of confusion going around with player information concerning the "Brothers of 7" who my first group thought was the enemy for quite some time, and its connection to the Skinsaw Cult. Book 3 especially had terrible continuity. The authors said before that the Kreeg house would've been better as a setpiece and I wholeheartedly agree.

The fort itself was cool, the nymph however seemed tacked on and the Hook Mountain clanhold was bland. Would've been better to have the Ogres and Barl launch a counterattack and assault the fort. Cutting Paradise from the book 3 was also a really bad idea as it would've played up the theme of Greed far better than the Chainsaw Massacre homage.

Though yes, if your players understand the 10,000 year old language it is easier to get some information on the background out, but still very hard to get information on what the hell is going on now out until Book 5.

Well, he is a Celwynvian Elf...

I do agree it takes a little tweaking to make the adventure more fluid.

Then again, I'm dragging my players off to other adventures as well (We're doing Carrion Hill and Armageddon Echo at least)

But I think that the players don;t necessarily need to know about the uber plot until later. Especially if you are running side stories.

I'm a fan of the Dragon Age/Mass Effect/Legend of Zelda storytelling, where the players have a general idea of what they should be doing from the relatively early. It's why I think CotCT is the best AP yet, since you know it's about taking down Ileosa.

While I do dig the way you put together your campaign (nice job! and I may steal bits after I dig into in in detail) I don't agree that there was anything major wrong with the AP as written - not saying you're wrong, just that I personally don't have any issues with the material or using it in my game.

Like you I have dropped bits, such as the swamp nymph thing, from the story completely - but we managed to make the Graul homestead, Fort Rannick, Skull's Crossing and the Kreeg clanhold work together fine. The characters know they're chasing after some kind of whacko cult that uses an ancient Thassilonian symbol as a calling-card and, as of last adventure, they think they've found their BBEG: Mokmurian. Of course I don't doubt the players know there's a runelord behind him but they're not letting on in-game anyway...they're happy to learn how much deeper the rabbit hole goes a little more each session.

Bits of the thing don't come together that cohesively, for sure, but I'm cutting Paizo some slack (very kind of me, no? lol) because it was the first one they put together in this format. Like everyone, they're learning as they go along...and I appreciate that they seem to learn quickly.
M

Interesting thread.

Bits of the thing don't come together that cohesively, for sure, but I'm cutting Paizo some slack (very kind of me, no? lol) because it was the first one they put together in this format. Like everyone, they're learning as they go along...and I appreciate that they seem to learn quickly.
M

I wholeheartedly understand all the issues Paizo had while working on them, and certainly haven't given up on them, but I'd hope this is more constructive criticism and my own "Director's Cut". If one day, 5 or 10 years from now they release a hardcover (after all the original books have sold out) maybe they'd consider some of this.

Coridan, I really like your version, very interesting build up and conclusion. Very anime too (in a good way) - I can almost visualize those encounters :)

While I do agree with the others - after running it to book 5 so far, it's been very enjoyable/exciting/interesting - I can see where you're coming from. The clues are strung very far out, so the players won't know (at least for sure) who the "bad guy" is from the start, and they have a lot of potential false leads.

That has worked well in my group, but I can see other groups being impatient. Each DM needs to tailor things to suit his group, and I'd say the baseline of the AP starts at the "low-info" end.

Again, thanks for sharing your vision - it's fascinating.

Coridan, I really like your version, very interesting build up and conclusion. Very anime too (in a good way) - I can almost visualize those encounters :)

While I do agree with the others - after running it to book 5 so far, it's been very enjoyable/exciting/interesting - I can see where you're coming from. The clues are strung very far out, so the players won't know (at least for sure) who the "bad guy" is from the start, and they have a lot of potential false leads.

That has worked well in my group, but I can see other groups being impatient. Each DM needs to tailor things to suit his group, and I'd say the baseline of the AP starts at the "low-info" end.

Again, thanks for sharing your vision - it's fascinating.

I think part of this is the fact that they don't need to know who the bad guy is yet. Right now, (Thistletop) they're just trying to save Sandpoint and stop the goblins. then they'll get a little taste of the bigger picture at the end of skinsaw.

But right now, they are just stopping evil when they find it. (And really pissing of the Lamashtu, Pazuzu, and demonic followers.)

My players have actually caught me off guard when it comes to piecing it all together. We're nearly done with burnt offerings and a crap load of background has already beren discovered by perceptive players. My party rogue was looking through the campaign setting when making her character and she is varisian and read the history and remembered the varisian symbol is the runelord symbol and mentally tied that to ancient thassalonian. She also when picking her bonus languages picked Thasalonian, because she thought it would be cool to read a dead language "Like latin is in the real world, all the cool ancient texts will be in it!" So I was like "Umm ok? Hmm...." :P And Tsuto's journal gave them lots of clues especially when it was read and Nualia's was aswell.... So Yea they know the games called "Rise of the Runelords" and know about the runewell and the symbol so as players they know where its going and as characters they have some decent clues already....

All that aside, I REALLY dig your take and if I wasn't running it as is, I would highly consider swiping your ideas which I may anyway for some other game.... :P

(snip) So Yea they know the games called "Rise of the Runelords" and know about the runewell and the symbol so as players they know where its going and as characters they have some decent clues already.... (snip)

I edited any reference to Rise of the Runelords out of the player's guide pdf along with the first page, and the rumours box. I like the idea that the players don't know what to expect.

I don't share the same worries as the OP here. To me, a region-affecting event like the awakening of a runelord would spawn all kinds of seemingly unrelated events that would create adventure for a variety of levels.

For instance, I could imagine an adventuring group starting in Magnimar and facing the activities of the Skinsaw Cult from level 1, perhaps witnessing a change in the activities of the less savoury parts of Magnimaran society. This would lead to the end of PF2 and then they would be on the path.

If an adventuring group started off in Turtleback Ferry, they could witness a series of marked murders as well, perhaps thwarting those plans and exposing an agent of Leucretia. Then Leucretia takes control of the gambling barge and maybe there is an adventure where the PCs are solving the puzzle of the tattoos, ending in a fight that sinks the barge, forcing the change in bad guy tactics that leads to the attack on Ft. Rannick and the Dam.

If they started off in a Shoanti tribe up north, their first adventures would revolve around the consequences of the giant tribes moving around or might involve marked murders to feed the runewell as well. Then they might be led to either the end of PF3 or straight into the second part of PF4.

My point is that regardless of where they started in the west half of Varisia, they would witness the actions involving feeding the runewell first, the gathering of information and then forming an army for a war of conquest. I don't think that everything has to click together so nicely as the OP wishes it would.

Stewart Perkins wrote:

(snip) So Yea they know the games called "Rise of the Runelords" and know about the runewell and the symbol so as players they know where its going and as characters they have some decent clues already.... (snip)

I edited any reference to Rise of the Runelords out of the player's guide pdf along with the first page, and the rumours box. I like the idea that the players don't know what to expect.

I don't share the same worries as the OP here. To me, a region-affecting event like the awakening of a runelord would spawn all kinds of seemingly unrelated events that would create adventure for a variety of levels.

For instance, I could imagine an adventuring group starting in Magnimar and facing the activities of the Skinsaw Cult from level 1, perhaps witnessing a change in the activities of the less savoury parts of Magnimaran society. This would lead to the end of PF2 and then they would be on the path.

If an adventuring group started off in Turtleback Ferry, they could witness a series of marked murders as well, perhaps thwarting those plans and exposing an agent of Leucretia. Then Leucretia takes control of the gambling barge and maybe there is an adventure where the PCs are solving the puzzle of the tattoos, ending in a fight that sinks the barge, forcing the change in bad guy tactics that leads to the attack on Ft. Rannick and the Dam.

If they started off in a Shoanti tribe up north, their first adventures would revolve around the consequences of the giant tribes moving around or might involve marked murders to feed the runewell as well. Then they might be led to either the end of PF3 or straight into the second part of PF4.

My point is that regardless of where they started in the west half of Varisia, they would witness the actions involving feeding the runewell first, the gathering of information and then forming an army for a war of conquest. I don't think that everything has to click together so nicely as the OP wishes it would.

Exactly!

+1

That's not to say that the OP had a bad campaign, but it I prefer the present ROTR storyline a bit more. But I do like the OP version of stringing things together.
(And the flying tower thing is a bit over the top for my tastes).

Thinking about this though, it makes for a better big picture if news of some of these other events eventually filters through to the PCs. They get a bit of that when they go from Sandpoint to Magnimar where they can find out that there have been ritualistic murders there too. Maybe as they pass through Wistledown or Ilsurian, they might hear a similar story about "star murders" or sometime later, they might encounter a group of Shoanti refugees who were driven out of their homes by groups of giants that decided to move where they have never been before.

There are ways to bring the big picture down to the PC level without a rewrite of the entire path. The original poster's work was original and I'm sure it was a fun campaign but it's not what I plan because that's not the kind of story I want to tell.

(And the flying tower thing is a bit over the top for my tastes).

This is from the Paizo module Crucible of Chaos, I didn't make that bit up so much as integrate it into the RotRL storyline.

Hey Coridan,

I'm really digging what you have done with the AP. I'd like to hear more details about what you did with books 2 and 3.

For 2, where did you place the brothel/dungeon? Did you keep Foxglove Manor (IMO that's the best part of the AP)

Also, what kind of stats do these awakening runelords have? It seems as if their long hibernation weakened them severely in your campaign.

I'm tempted to try this out on my next run through of RotRL.

Did you keep Foxglove Manor (IMO that's the best part of the AP)

I was dreading this adventure before we played it... It turns out that my group LOVED the investigation part at the beginning. We all thought it was a pretty refreshing turn of events (...that almost had nothing to do with melee). We also loved the gruesome aspects and creepy mood of the adventure.

We want MORE actually!

Ultradan

Cesare wrote:

Did you keep Foxglove Manor (IMO that's the best part of the AP)

I was dreading this adventure before we played it... It turns out that my group LOVED the investigation part at the beginning. We all thought it was a pretty refreshing turn of events (...that almost had nothing to do with melee). We also loved the gruesome aspects and creepy mood of the adventure.

We want MORE actually!

Ultradan

Maybe you can change the parameters of the investigation. Instead of Aldern committing heinous murders against greedy individuals, you can have him murder prostitutes; he can be the Sandpoint "Jack the Ripper."

All clues of course lead to the haunted Foxglove Manor. I find that the sin of lust fits best with the crimes of the Foxglove family.

Coridan, I like your take on the adventure path; personally, I prefer a more straightforward plot to one with a lot of digressions and side trips.

I especially like the flying city idea. Commandeering a flying city is exactly the sort of bad-ass stuff that moderately high level characters should be doing! Plus, it reminds me of Michael Moorcock's first Corum trilogy and the cool flying City in the Pyramid.

Definately dont think this AP was weak in any way. Im also not keen on adding more Runelords to the mix for the sake of completing the set, YMMV. Still an interesting read by the OP.

IMHO, the written plot and timing of when the PCs start piecing things together is fine. My group is asking questions about the Sihedron symbol already and when they see it again and again (Nualia, sandpoint murders, magnimar, etc) they will start looking into it more, im sure of this. The repeating finds of the Sihedron symbol is "interactive foreshadowing" to me, the party can take the initiative and investigate whenever they think "enough is enough, its time to learn more of what this symbol means, theres something greater afoot here".

I love Crucible of Chaos and Ive always wanted to tie it to River into Darkness as a bigger Jungle romp. I dont think I would ever put it into RotRL though, just doesnt mesh well for me and my vision of Varisia. I love seeing other DM takes on these regardless.

Hey Coridan,

I'm really digging what you have done with the AP. I'd like to hear more details about what you did with books 2 and 3.

For 2, where did you place the brothel/dungeon? Did you keep Foxglove Manor (IMO that's the best part of the AP)

Also, what kind of stats do these awakening runelords have? It seems as if their long hibernation weakened them severely in your campaign.

I'm tempted to try this out on my next run through of RotRL.

Yes, I kept Foxglove Manor, and really played up Aldern as someone being overcome by Lust. The brothel was in Magnimar, I used a modified version (since we already played through it in CotCT) of Pathfinder 8's hospice to represent the brothel and the ruins/runewell beneath it.

For the Runelords I simply statted up Master Specialist (from Comp Mage) wizards of the appropriate specialty at a level equal to the CR of the encounter they replaced. Don't remember the levels off hand but they replaced:
Wrath = Malfeshnekor
Lust = Xanesha
Greed = Lucretia
Gluttony = The Shoggoth (this one wasn't a wizard anymore... =p)
Sloth = Mokmurian
Envy = that lady at the Runeforge in book 5 (final encounter)
Pride = Most High Ceoptra
Xin II = Karzoug (a Universalist wizard)

Ultradan wrote:

Cesare wrote:

Did you keep Foxglove Manor (IMO that's the best part of the AP)

I was dreading this adventure before we played it... It turns out that my group LOVED the investigation part at the beginning. We all thought it was a pretty refreshing turn of events (...that almost had nothing to do with melee). We also loved the gruesome aspects and creepy mood of the adventure.

We want MORE actually!

Ultradan

Maybe you can change the parameters of the investigation. Instead of Aldern committing heinous murders against greedy individuals, you can have him murder prostitutes; he can be the Sandpoint "Jack the Ripper."

All clues of course lead to the haunted Foxglove Manor. I find that the sin of lust fits best with the crimes of the Foxglove family.

I had him be a rapist on top of being a murderer (my group is cool with that sort of stuff) and he was magnetically attracted to acts of lust. Not the prostitute so much as her customer, or Ven Vinder's daughter and her partner whom he caught in the act - bloodily stopped them from escaping, raped, then murdered them.

Man, this thread really pumps me up.

For my next book, I will do what you did and have the PCs battle a different runelord in every chapter. However, a plain specialist wizard seems a little bland to me, and I want to give them special abilities indicative of their particular sin and use some of the sweet templates available in the Advanced Bestiary.

Additionally, each Runelord will have a specific champion, who bears a toned down sin weapon from the module: 'Seven Swords of Sin.' These individuals will be paragons of that particular sin

For example, I really like how you turned the runelord of gluttony into Shoggoth - an all-consuming blob-thing fits perfectly with the sin.

This is what I have in mind:

Karzoug - impenetrable adamantine skin (inspired by Full Metal Alchemist), which he can activate or deactivate at will
* Champion - Mayor Grobaras; he's such an interesting character - I really want to fit him more into the story somehow (and give him a nasty skillset to boot); maybe he has the Midas touch?

Sorshen - inveigler template;
* Champion - Aldern, obviously.

Gluttony - Shoggoth
Champion - I'm probably going to have to buy the module

Sloth - still thinking...
Champion - Mokmurian

Envy - still thinking...
Champion - still thinking...

Alaznist - Fire-infused template; can transform into a beast perhaps (maybe a fire-themed Malfeshnekor?)
Champion - Nualia

Pride - straight up illusionist with tons of clones (kind of like a roided out Vraxeris fight)
Champion - Most High Ceoptra: with a name like that, how can you not be guilty of being prideful?

Xin II - universalist wizard
Champion(s) - the PCs

Anyways, tell me what you think.

I like your take. I'm going to drop this one into my notes so when I revisit this AP ten years from now I can switch it up. Right now I'm running it by the book.

And I like the players thinking ok this is a cult of Lamashtu, to oh the giants are behind it all, to there's a BBEG we have to stop in the mountains. But then again I'm not a huge fan of knowing the end before you play through it games.

Love all the work you put into it though. Great job

I like your take. I'm going to drop this one into my notes so when I revisit this AP ten years from now I can switch it up. Right now I'm running it by the book.

And I like the players thinking ok this is a cult of Lamashtu, to oh the giants are behind it all, to there's a BBEG we have to stop in the mountains. But then again I'm not a huge fan of knowing the end before you play through it games.

Love all the work you put into it though. Great job

One thing I would have done differently is play up the Lamashtu bits more and developed that into some interesting side thing that actually comes to more of a conclusion midway rather than a forgotten footnote. I have yet to decide/figure out how to do this...

Additionally, each Runelord will have a specific champion, who bears a toned down sin weapon from the module: 'Seven Swords of Sin.' These individuals will be paragons of that particular sin

While most of my Runelords have the very champions you mentioned (more of a prime agent than a champion though for me) I did debate adding in the Seven Swords of Sin, but decided to ditch them in favor of the players making new weapons of Sin each tied to one player one sin at the Runeforge, much like the old Runelords had their specific weapon these would be the weapons of the players should they take up Xin's offer.

Also I'm giving each player a free campaign trait tying them to a sin in my next runthrough (starting soon™) though they won't know it. Every use of the trait will give them a tick next to that sin. I'll post them as soon as I'm finished, still need one for Sloth, Envy and Lust, but those guys need to make their characters and they are designed to be useful for the specific character.

While most of my Runelords have the very champions you mentioned (more of a prime agent than a champion though for me) I did debate adding in the Seven Swords of Sin, but decided to ditch them in favor of the players making new weapons of Sin each tied to one player one sin at the Runeforge, much like the old Runelords had their specific weapon these would be the weapons of the players should they take up Xin's offer.

Also I'm giving each player a free campaign trait tying them to a sin in my next runthrough (starting soon™) though they won't know it. Every use of the trait will give them a tick next to that sin. I'll post them as soon as I'm finished, still need one for Sloth, Envy and Lust, but those guys need to make their characters and they are designed to be useful for the specific character.

I'm looking forward to see what sin-related traits you came up with. BTW, how are you introducing the campaign to your players?

I'm looking forward to see what sin-related traits you came up with. BTW, how are you introducing the campaign to your players?

They know it's called Rise of the Runelords and has to do with the Seven Deadly Sins, they also know I'm modifying it heavily.

Here's the traits so far:

Half Elf Paladin - Pride
Once per round as a free action, issue an order to a fellow PC, if they follow the order before your next turn, you gain +2 to d20 rolls till the end of your next turn. An order must involve the player performing something specific (wizard, use your ray of enfeeblement on the ogre! is ok, fighter attack the enemies! is not)

Halfling Oracle - Gluttony
Whenever you drink a potion, increase its caster level by 1

Wizard - Greed
You get Detect Coins as a 0th level spell (like detect evil, for money!)

Gnome Ranger - Wrath
+4 bonus to confirm critical hits against favored enemies. Stacks with critical focus.

Bard - Lust
You gain Attraction (the psionic power) as a 1/day Spell Like Ability that uses the bard level as caster level (assuming max power points pumped in basically)

Unknown caster type - Sloth
You gain a +2 to d20 rolls till the beginning of your next turn if you take only one action (move or standard) for your turn.

Spellthief - Envy
Not sure on this one yet

Cesare wrote:

I'm looking forward to see what sin-related traits you came up with. BTW, how are you introducing the campaign to your players?

They know it's called Rise of the Runelords and has to do with the Seven Deadly Sins, they also know I'm modifying it heavily.

Here's the traits so far:

Half Elf Paladin - Pride
Once per round as a free action, issue an order to a fellow PC, if they follow the order before your next turn, you gain +2 to d20 rolls till the end of your next turn. An order must involve the player performing something specific (wizard, use your ray of enfeeblement on the ogre! is ok, fighter attack the enemies! is not)

Halfling Oracle - Gluttony
Whenever you drink a potion, increase its caster level by 1

Wizard - Greed
You get Detect Coins as a 0th level spell (like detect evil, for money!)

Gnome Ranger - Wrath
+4 bonus to confirm critical hits against favored enemies. Stacks with critical focus.

Bard - Lust
You gain Attraction (the psionic power) as a 1/day Spell Like Ability that uses the bard level as caster level (assuming max power points pumped in basically)

Unknown caster type - Sloth
You gain a +2 to d20 rolls till the beginning of your next turn if you take only one action (move or standard) for your turn.

Spellthief - Envy
Not sure on this one yet

A nifty Envy one would be to allow him to copy one of the others abilities or something, like randomly determine which one hes copying at the beggining of the day... Just a thought

I touched on this in my earlier post, but I have a question:

How are you going to make the fights with each runelord memorable?

In the original version of the AP, you had some cinematic boss fights:

- fight with Xanesha on the top of the clock tower
- fight with Mokmurian in the ancient library
- fight with Nualia in the observatory of a giant statue
- Karzoug in the Eye of Avarice

...to name a few.

It would be a shame to have them face a garden-variety master specialist wizard. I've contemplated giving them templates, but having them duke it out with players in fantastical locations is also vital IMO.

Some ideas I have:

- The battle with Karzoug takes place in a laboratory; fragile glasses and vials containing mysterious mutative liquids litter the room. During the course of the battle, Karzoug uses telekinesis to fling players into these vials, which can transform them into a variety of things. Karzoug himself has experimented greatly on himself, allowing his skin to harden into adamantine or dissolve into liquid at will (I envision the main bad guy in Terminator 2 here)

- In keeping with the dark/horror theme, I want the battle with Sorshen to be very gothic in flavor. Sorshen is a vampire and the battle takes place in a ruined, desecrated church/cathedral. In addition to Sorshen, the players have to contend with dominated villagers with pitchforks and swarms of bats that break through the bloodied stained glass windows.

More to come.

I touched on this in my earlier post, but I have a question:

How are you going to make the fights with each runelord memorable?

Haven't gotten them all yet but

Alaznist will be inside Thistletop, her fight will be memorable more for dialogue with the PCs than for the location which will essentially be a large chamber with a throne on top of a pyramid of steps.

Sorshen will be still trapped in her sealing chambers as well, a brothel has been built atop it and the players will have to get through a Dusk till Dawn like event before she shows herself.

Karzoug will be fought on a sinking riverboat casino.

Coridan, you should write a campaign journal; I would really like to find out how your campaign unfolds. Having already run this AP once already, your new twist really makes me want to run it with the same group!

In my hypothetical runelords reboot, I will dedicate Book 3 to Envy. The three hags, the slain nymph, and the tragedy at Fort Rannick all scream Shakespeare to me. Envy's champion would probably be Kevan, or even Jakardos! Jakardos may have secretly loved the nymph queen, but when she chose Lamatar, he made a deal with the hags to have both of them killed. In return, he betrayed the plans to Fort Rannick to the Hook Mountain Ogres who do the bidding of the hags (The head hag is the Runelord of Envy in disguise).

Logue's work is far too brilliant to toss by the wayside; when I ran through this the first time around (RAW), my players really enjoyed it.

I don't think the AP is particularly weak.
I do not think modules should tell tales or combine to form a single story. They are just the setting which combined with the PCs allows stories to be created.
I understand that is necessary for there to be a story for a module to sell, but that is a hinderance to running it.

I like the way that things expand with each module.
I like the way players get gradually drawn in defeating one boss - only to find that they were working for someone bigger.
There are some weaknesses. It seems Nick Logue got carried away with he Grauls and the rest of HMM is a bit lacking. It didn't help that the idea of running a fort was viewed by my players as a penalty not a reward.

I do not think players should be beating a Runelord in the first module. That will give them the impression that Runelords are weak, since the PCs are during that module.

I know my players would not trust a DMPC, and would try to get rid of him at the first possible opportunity.

One of my 3 players has the idea that each module is based on a particular sin, though I expect that to change as we progress though FotSG.

Update on my game:

We finished Chapter 1 (Wrath) last night. I dropped the third level of Sandpoint since they waited in ambush for Nualia to come to the chapel (they knew she was going to be performing her ceremony on Father Zantius that night).

The final battle had them vs Alaznist (as a level 7 Evoker) on top of a step pyramid. She had combat reflexes and had a fun time of tripping everyone who came up the pyramid towards her and sending them tumbling down. It was a tough battle for 7 PCs and just the perfect amount of challenge. I'll post her stats up if anyone wants.

I decided to throw book 2 out the window also. I wanted to focus far more on Lust than the more horror-aspects of Skinsaw Murders. Also the PCs had a ton of loot and money and the burning desire to go to the city to shop.

So I've moved Foxglove Manor to Magnimar, a city in the throes of an extended Mardi Gras-esque celebration. The city's officials, in a failing attempt to end the party, has outlawed prostitution. It's not working. Mothers, daughters, even the local blacksmith have forsworn their trade to ply the world's oldest profession. Hidden amongst these new prostitutes are the sinspawn of Lust. They are a weaker version of succubi and are draining the life of their johns.

Aldern has invited the PCs (including his love interest) to stay at his home while they are in the city, unbeknownst to them the manor is sitting right on top of the Runewell of Lust. Eventually they'll figure it out, deactivate the Runewell and track down Sorshen to the Sunken Queen where she is hiding. I hope to introduce Ileosa there as one of Sorshen's consorts that the PCs will free from Sorshen for a nice tie-in.

Update on my game:

We finished Chapter 1 (Wrath) last night. I dropped the third level of Sandpoint since they waited in ambush for Nualia to come to the chapel (they knew she was going to be performing her ceremony on Father Zantius that night).

The final battle had them vs Alaznist (as a level 7 Evoker) on top of a step pyramid. She had combat reflexes and had a fun time of tripping everyone who came up the pyramid towards her and sending them tumbling down. It was a tough battle for 7 PCs and just the perfect amount of challenge. I'll post her stats up if anyone wants.

I decided to throw book 2 out the window also. I wanted to focus far more on Lust than the more horror-aspects of Skinsaw Murders. Also the PCs had a ton of loot and money and the burning desire to go to the city to shop.

So I've moved Foxglove Manor to Magnimar, a city in the throes of an extended Mardi Gras-esque celebration. The city's officials, in a failing attempt to end the party, has outlawed prostitution. It's not working. Mothers, daughters, even the local blacksmith have forsworn their trade to ply the world's oldest profession. Hidden amongst these new prostitutes are the sinspawn of Lust. They are a weaker version of succubi and are draining the life of their johns.

Aldern has invited the PCs (including his love interest) to stay at his home while they are in the city, unbeknownst to them the manor is sitting right on top of the Runewell of Lust. Eventually they'll figure it out, deactivate the Runewell and track down Sorshen to the Sunken Queen where she is hiding. I hope to introduce Ileosa there as one of Sorshen's consorts that the PCs will free from Sorshen for a nice tie-in.

Wait, you have Azlanist, one of the Runelords, as only being a 7th level Evoker?!?!

That's fine for your campaign but it sort of makes the Runelords into wimps.

Wait, you have Azlanist, one of the Runelords, as only being a 7th level Evoker?!?!

That's fine for your campaign but it sort of makes the Runelords into wimps.

In the first post, he says: "I replaced the Barghest with Alaznist herself, in a severely weakened condition". I presume that means that she's still weaker than normal after awakening from her long nap.

Understood. Still seems wrong to me (and thats just me) to have a pushover Runelord.

The Runelords have been in stasis for over 10,000 years. I liken it to the Wheel of Time series where Rand Al'Thor confronts two of the forsaken at the end of the first book and prevails. In fact, my Runelords have quite a bit in common with the Forsaken in terms of how they act amongst each other and involve themselves in world affairs.

The most powerful Runelord will be Pride who will be a CR17 iirc. The final boss, Karzoug, has been replaced with Xin II

Update on my game:

We finished Chapter 1 (Wrath) last night. I dropped the third level of Sandpoint since they waited in ambush for Nualia to come to the chapel (they knew she was going to be performing her ceremony on Father Zantius that night).

The final battle had them vs Alaznist (as a level 7 Evoker) on top of a step pyramid. She had combat reflexes and had a fun time of tripping everyone who came up the pyramid towards her and sending them tumbling down. It was a tough battle for 7 PCs and just the perfect amount of challenge. I'll post her stats up if anyone wants.

I decided to throw book 2 out the window also. I wanted to focus far more on Lust than the more horror-aspects of Skinsaw Murders. Also the PCs had a ton of loot and money and the burning desire to go to the city to shop.

So I've moved Foxglove Manor to Magnimar, a city in the throes of an extended Mardi Gras-esque celebration. The city's officials, in a failing attempt to end the party, has outlawed prostitution. It's not working. Mothers, daughters, even the local blacksmith have forsworn their trade to ply the world's oldest profession. Hidden amongst these new prostitutes are the sinspawn of Lust. They are a weaker version of succubi and are draining the life of their johns.

Aldern has invited the PCs (including his love interest) to stay at his home while they are in the city, unbeknownst to them the manor is sitting right on top of the Runewell of Lust. Eventually they'll figure it out, deactivate the Runewell and track down Sorshen to the Sunken Queen where she is hiding. I hope to introduce Ileosa there as one of Sorshen's consorts that the PCs will free from Sorshen for a nice tie-in.

I'd like to see the stats for your Alaznist. I have not read the Wheel of Time series, but you have to remember, Karzoug is actually the seventh Runelord of Greed (having usurped the title from the previous one). Thus, the Alaznist that awoke may not be the actual Alaznist, but an apprentice who is the first to rise from the 10,000 year slumber and to assume the vacant title for her own.

The Runelords have been in stasis for over 10,000 years. I liken it to the Wheel of Time series where Rand Al'Thor confronts two of the forsaken at the end of the first book and prevails. In fact, my Runelords have quite a bit in common with the Forsaken in terms of how they act amongst each other and involve themselves in world affairs.

The most powerful Runelord will be Pride who will be a CR17 iirc. The final boss, Karzoug, has been replaced with Xin II

OK, but Rand is a LOT more powerful than a 3rd level Burnt Offerings Character.

As I said, it IS your game.

But I think that sort of thing cheapens the threat of the Runelords...

OK, but Rand is a LOT more powerful than a 3rd level Burnt Offerings Character.

As I said, it IS your game.

But I think that sort of thing cheapens the threat of the Runelords...

In the original playthrough the Runelords weren't very much a threat at all as the players have no idea the game is about one (unless they read the cover of the book). There's little to no build-up in tension; with this they are taking out Runelords sure, but they see each time the Runelords themselves are getting more and more powerful and more threatening as time goes on. Lust had the entire city of Magnimar in the throes of orgy and decadence. Greed is in control of the city of Kaer Maga (the lake in the center of the city being his Runewell).

My players are just about to take on their third Runelords (we had to delay due to some player drama but are back on track now). I'll post a big update after tomorrow's session.

I'm a fan of the Dragon Age/Mass Effect/Legend of Zelda storytelling, where the players have a general idea of what they should be doing from the relatively early. It's why I think CotCT is the best AP yet, since you know it's about taking down Ileosa.

Well, I'm halfway through the second adventure and I had no idea that it was about taking down Ileosa.

So, thanks for that.

Coridan wrote:

I'm a fan of the Dragon Age/Mass Effect/Legend of Zelda storytelling, where the players have a general idea of what they should be doing from the relatively early. It's why I think CotCT is the best AP yet, since you know it's about taking down Ileosa.

Well, I'm halfway through the second adventure and I had no idea that it was about taking down Ileosa.

So, thanks for that.

Our group figured it out right after we left gaedran lamm's lair. And it was confirmed well before the end of the first book that she's no good (with the whole Trinia thing)

Coridan wrote:

I'm a fan of the Dragon Age/Mass Effect/Legend of Zelda storytelling, where the players have a general idea of what they should be doing from the relatively early. It's why I think CotCT is the best AP yet, since you know it's about taking down Ileosa.

Well, I'm halfway through the second adventure and I had no idea that it was about taking down Ileosa.

So, thanks for that.

To be fair, the post title does say the whole thread contains spoilers.

But being in the RotRL section, I can see how seeing a spoiler for CotCT was unexpected. If it helps, the fun is in the details with CotCT. And there is much much more for your character there to learn and experience.

As for the Trinia thing, my group never trusts damsels in distress anymore. A bet of metagaming I 'may' have enabled. :/

I wanted to mention that I finished this game up, though I haven't yet compiled the list of events that came after. Ended up in a massive final combat between

six level 16 PCs (sadly we had a dropout right around the end of the campaign)

Emperor Xin Centum level 20 Universalist

Shory Primarch (Runelord of Virtue essentially) level 20 Bard
-level 16 Oracle of the Seven Virtues
-level 16 Archer fighter working for the Shory

Xanderghul, Runelord of Pride level 19 Illusionist/Magus Gestalt

Belimarius, Runelord of Envy, level 17 Abjurer
-Level 10 Bloatmage
-Level 10 Bard
-Level 10 Barbarian

The fight was a 4 way melee between
Primarch (Good)
Xin (Law)
Xanderghul (Chaos, he went insane)
Belimarius (Evil)

The players divided between Primarch, Xin and Belimarius with a few changes mid-fight but Xin ended up winning and reforming a new Thassilon Empire with the players as the new Runelords. Fun all around.

We are now in the middle of book six, and we've had a blast all along. I've ran the whole adventure path pretty much 'as is', dropping very little, but narrating the long cross-country walks (specially in the higher levels, as we only play once a month and encountering two mountain lions is hardly a good use of our time at level 13, lol...). The only real wilderness trek we did play 'day-by-day' was the final trek to Xin-Shalast, to reflect the long and tedeous journey to find the lost city. I also narrated the nymph in the swamp part in book three to save time.

I (we) found that the seemingly unlinked adventures was actually a good thing for an adventure path. I kept the group going by attaining short-term goals rather than drag the team through an endless cycle of "But your princess is in another castle!" events. It'll be fun to start again at 1st level after this adventure. We'll be running Curse of the Crimson Throne next. I'll probably have the new characters go though it some 14 years after the events of this adventure path.

Ultradan

Mind if I ask why 14 years after?

Im playing in a CotCT game here on the site. Pretty good so far.

Mind if I ask why 14 years after?

Im playing in a CotCT game here on the site. Pretty good so far.

I have one of the characters that has a 1 year old child in Rise of the Runelords that may make an appearance as a young adult in Curse of the Crimson Throne, or even use a PC the the adventure path I'll be doing after that.

Plus another young person that the PC saved in the flooding of Turtleback will make an appearance as an NPC in CotCT.

I like to make these little mini-connections from campaign to campaign. It makes the whole world feel real as the players recognize folks (minor NPCs) from their old adventures.

Ultradan

The thing I've never been able to think past is how to explain why, in today's terms, the child of a billionaire is getting by on student loans instead of a healthy trust fund...

The thing I've never been able to think past is how to explain why, in today's terms, the child of a billionaire is getting by on student loans instead of a healthy trust fund...

Of course, I'll try to make it fit somehow. Maybe his father went missing. Maybe they got in an argument and don't talk. Whatever I come up with, I'm pretty sure the player will roll with it though.

:)

Ultradan