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Ok, I started running Burnt Offerings. My party has been giving me grief, but after this last sessions, I'm more perplexed than usual.
The first part of the problem lies in the fact that most of the players have avoided making characters with ties to Sandpoint. They've begun threatening to leave the town to never return. At this point, my reaction would be to tell them that those characters go on to have adventures elsewhere and they need to roll up new characters with ties to Sandpoint and I'll work them back into the game with the player that does have a character with ties to town.
The next problem came as the PCs began crossing the rope bridge to Thistletop. Despite my descriptions of a rickety old rope bridge, they went across in 2 groups of 3 (with a small person in the 1st group). The second group took the plunge to the sea below. 2 character died, having been injured just shortly before, by the goblin dogs nearby.
So, the next session, I worked out a story to work in the next two characters. One of the new characters being a rogue, she had run into some problems with the Sczarni (sp?). One of the other PC's mentors asked the party to find her and off they went. Eventually the mentor got involved in the rescue, but to add another hook to keep the PCs tied to things, he was abducted by the Sczarni.
Now last night, they decided to see what happened to the mentor. They decided they would take on the entire Sczarni guild by themselves (they're 3rd level now). They seem to have the idea that they should be able to take out an entire thieves' guild. They went to the Pixie's Kitten (a place they had come to associate (incorrectly) with the Sczarni) and started a big fight. One of the PCs ended up dead from the fight with the 3 Barbarian bouncers at the Kitten, but all three Barbarians ended up dead. They ran the Madame out of town basically (who is in a relationship with Sheriff Belor). The Sheriff is of course in Magnimar at the moment, but they went back to the mayor and demanded that she give them the right to arrest everyone in the Pixie's Kitten, arrest Kaye herself, and basically go on a witch hunt in town. It should be noted, the only one of the original PCs left that was declared a local hero, is a Dwarven Druid with a 6 Charisma.
At this point in time, my gut instinct is: the mayor takes away the parties "unofficial deputy" privileges they had been given by the sheriff. She then reprimands them for their actions at the Kitten. I don't want the Sczarni to give up the mentor, as that's a strong tie that holds one of the PCs to Sandpoint (making it 2 PCs tied to town, instead of just 1). I also want the PCs to have a healthy respect for the Sczarni. If they can just march in and wipe out the guild, they'll have the false sense that I'll let them accomplish anything they decide to attempt.
The party refuses to hunt any more goblins until the mentor is returned to them. They act like it's the town's fault that he was kidnapped. It should be mentioned that they continually make comments that they think they should just be able to distribute swords to the townsfolk, who could then defend themselves against any goblin horde that could be unleashed against them. It should also be mentioned that the character who had been mentored by the mentor in question is now dead. However, one of the new characters (brought in after the rope bridge incident) is the mentor's sister.
There's probably other complications that I haven't mentioned that muddy up the situation for me. Don't feel bad if I have to nix ideas because of this. I really am looking for some advice.
In case it helps, here's what I have for characters currently:
Wanda - CG/NG Human Rogue Female (15 year old street urchin who only knows Sandpoint; has an affinity for Aud, as Aud helped save her life and seems to be the only person who really cares about her; strongest tie to Sandpoint currently)
Aud - NG Dwarven Cleric Female (Priestess of Pharasma; midwife and undertaker; younger sister of Kettil ("The Mentor" and gladiator of the local arena))
Thraknar - N/LN Dwarven Druid Male (elemental druid (small elemental instead of animal companion, as per Complete Mage); grumpy, feels like humans have no sense of community, ready to "leave Sandpoint to the goblins"; last remaining "hero" of the goblin invasion that started off the Burnt Offerings adventure)
Llwellyn - CG/CN Elven Warmage Male (Has continually made a point of not having any loyalty to anything; looking to PrC into Wild Mage)
Zenovia - NG Human Fighter Female (now deceased, was Kettil's "apprentice"; likely to be replaced by either a Barbarian or Paladin; was one of the surviving heroes from the beginning of the adventure)
Honestly, it sounds like you've got a player problem, not a character problem. The players aren't cooperating with you at all. It's hard to know if they are being uncooperative on purpose, or if they just have wildly different expectations for the game than you do.
I recommend having a conversation with the group, laying out the situation:
- Several of them have actively opposed efforts to connect them to the setting.
- They have acted as if they should be able to do anything they like without consequences (e.g. attacking the brothel).
- They are trying to hold the game hostage (refusing to do anything until "the town" returns the mentor).
- They simultaneously think the townsfolk should be competent (arm them and let them fight the goblins themselves) and incompetent (attack anyone they want to and expect the townsfolk to stand by and let it happen).
Then ask them what they are trying to accomplish with this behavior. Are they unhappy with the game? Is it that they only want to play hack-and-slash, and all the interaction with NPCs is unpleasant to them? Are they trying to sabotage the campaign for some reason?
If you want to run something as intricate as an Adventure Path, you need at least a basic level of cooperation from the group. So first, you'll need to find out why you haven't gotten that cooperation, before you can determine how to proceed from here.
If they do want to continue, I'd actually recommend a "do-over." Assuming the group agrees, then you should, as a group, choose a point in the story to which you will "rewind" the story, before things got out of hand, and start again from there, with PCs that people think they can play cooperatively within the story (even if that means scrapping some of the existing PCs and finding an excuse to introduce new ones).
I agree with everything Cintra said.
When I started up both my Runelord groups, the first question I got was "what kind of a character can I make?"
I replied, "One that isn't evil, or incapable of being concerned for any one but themselves. If your character concept is such that you would watch monsters ravage townsfolk, and their loot the bodies after the monsters wander off- then come up with a new concept because that won't fly. If you're incapable of a little heroism, this isn't the game for you."
They stared at me, and I smiled. "You were expecting me to say something about character classes and races weren't you? This is even more important than that. Sociopaths won't work in this campaign, and you need to understand that and be able to work with it or none of us will have any fun. This is a campaign where you're fighting evil."
And it worked.. it worked really well. Even the rogues ended up with a soft side that I was able to work with pretty easily.
The first part of the problem lies in the fact that most of the players have avoided making characters with ties to Sandpoint. They've begun threatening to leave the town to never return. At this point, my reaction would be to tell them that those characters go on to have adventures elsewhere and they need to roll up new characters with ties to Sandpoint and I'll work them back into the game with the player that does have a character with ties to town.
I say let them go. Sure, it screws up the prewritten course of events, but there's still plenty of ways to get the written encounters into the game. Make use of the random encounter tables in the Varisia article and throw as many at them as you can. Give them a reason to need to go back to town (healing, supplies, etc).
At this point in time, my gut instinct is: the mayor takes away the parties "unofficial deputy" privileges they had been given by the sheriff. She then reprimands them for their actions at the Kitten. I don't want the Sczarni to give up the mentor, as that's a strong tie that holds one of the PCs to Sandpoint (making it 2 PCs tied to town, instead of just 1). I also want the PCs to have a healthy respect for the Sczarni. If they can just march in and wipe out the guild, they'll have the false sense that I'll let them accomplish anything they decide to attempt.
Let them try. They might even succeed. But if they do, the rest of the Sczarni are going to come after them with all their resources. If the PCs think they can do anything, show them that they can, but there are consequences.
The party refuses to hunt any more goblins until the mentor is returned to them. They act like it's the town's fault that he was kidnapped. It should be mentioned that they continually make comments that they think they should just be able to distribute swords to the townsfolk, who could then defend themselves against any goblin horde that could be unleashed against them.
So throw another goblin attack at them while they're in the town. Let them watch as the lvl1 commoners defend themselves with swords with which they're not proficient. If they give the town false hope and the townspeople are butchered because of their arrogance, they might learn humility. Better yet, have the goblins attack while they are in the middle of or about to strike against the Sczarni. Given the choice between goblins and Varisian thieves, I think they'll choose to ally themselves with the humans.
My basic advice is to keep feeding them the rope. The more they have, the easier it is for them the hang themselves. Don't railroad them into or away from what they want to do, but be prepared to offer up realistic and motivating consequences for their poor decisions.
I'm sorry, my original advice wasn't very helpful, or even topical. You're sort of past that now, and looking backwards doesn't help.
I don't see how you can debug this really, without just making a campaign out of what they're doing and hope you find an intersection point to the AP somewhere up the timeline.
Or do a "What if.."
What if Nualia Tobyn wasn't stopped?
A full out goblin raid with NPC villain support.
Which might be interesting, but you'd be writing your own campaign until it intersected the original story, possibly defeating the very reason you might have bought an AP in the first place.
I'm sorry. For anybody else reading this thread, this is sadly a good example of why strong connections to Sandpoint should be required.
This is all very good advice. Taking things out of game may be the solution. I don't think we can do a "re-do", but I think I can get things back under control if I do that.
I'm not used to running pre-written stuff, so this is a first for me. I've been GMing for more than a decade now, but it's always been my own stuff. I picked up the Pathfinder adventures to fill in my Dragon subscription, and was impressed with the writing. They worked out better than planned because my group has been busy lately with no one really having the time to put together a campaign, so we decided we'd try something published. This is kind of new to all of us. I think a conversation may clear things up. There's hope for us yet.
Thanks. I'll keep you guys posted.
btw Watcher - The advice to make certain characters fit the setting was good advice, even if a bit late. When new characters come in, I will make certain that they have good ties to Sandpoint and that the players help write in story to make their characters a better fit.
If the party doesn't make serious amends to the townsfolk, they are likely to end up as outlaws with prices on their heads.
I recommend that you have the forces threatening the town try to recruit them, which may or may not work. If they join up with Nualia's allies, have the villains betray the party: There's nothing like the thirst for revenge to motivate your players.
If they seek shelter elsewhere, that place becomes the new setting for the Skinsaw murders. The Skinsaw Man's motivations are easily modified: Why wouldn't he hate them?
Well this is all very messy. I'd try and see if you can both 'meet them halfway' and look for points to get the story back on the rails.
From reading your post I get the impression that your basically trying to play hard ball with them and they seem to be retaliating by playing hard ball with you. As you've obvously figured out either the players or the DM are perfectly capable of wrecking an AP by being obstinate.
Try and see if you can meet them halfway. Maybe they can find some method of sneaking their mentor out or maybe some NPCs can help them with this problem in return for them helping with Sandpoints issues (i.e. NPCs will help and in return they have to do something that will get them back into the missions of the AP).
You've got to get this back to being akin to reasonable and back on track. What you've got going on is not that easy to work with in terms of in game consequences since making them outlaws with prices on their heads or having the Scarzni kill them all won't make running the AP impossible. Consider each aspect of what it is your PCs want and think about ways of letting them have what they want in a manner that does not destroy the integrity of your game and also allows you to extract a price - the price being that they be good little adventurers and get on with the AP.
Essentially let them win - but make sure the price of victory is that they get back on track.
One option you might want to consider...
Let the players continue being sociopaths. Their actions will eventually catch Tsuto's attention (he's in and out of town a lot) and he could contact the PCs via a messenger with an invitation to meet him at the Glassworks. He has an offer for the PCs; he's seen how disruptive they've been to Sandpoint, and shares their apparent hatred of the town, and would like to offer them some money to come with him to talk to his boss.
At that point, he brings the PCs to Thistletop to talk to Nualia. The meeting should probably take place in Ripnugget's throne-room, and all of the NPCs should be present; Nualia, Orik, Lyrie, Tsuto, Bruthazmus, AND Ripnugget as well. Maybe throw in a yeth hound. Nualia then asks the PCs to help her raid Sandpoint and promises them some money if they join her. If the PCs agree, then you have a fun little reversal adventure. And if the PCs treat Nualia and her allies with the same disrespect... maybe a good old TPK is the only way to go, to be honest. In any event, in this case you'll end up not really using the adventures as ADVENTURES, but as banks of stat blocks and maps and NPCs you can use to react to PC choices. For example, if they DO successfully raid Sandpoint and burn it to the ground, maybe the next thing they find out or hear about is rumors of a big treasure hidden in a place called Foxglove Manor...
It certainly sounds like the players are being difficult, though, and are deliberately trying to sabotage the adventure. That may be because they aren't used to playing in a story-driven adventure, or it may be because they just enjoy being disruptive. They CERTAINLY aren't behaving according to some of the alignments you listed in your first post.
Cintra's advice in the second post above, honestly, is probably the BEST advice so far.
I agree that Cintra has the best advice here. Even if the characters are evil or reticent, there has to be an element of player cooperation. I once played a character, in a heavily story-based game, who had a VERY low charisma score. To role-play this, I made him smelly, disagreeable, and ill-mannered. Basically, he had no social skills, and was always putting his foot in his mouth. This made him a very funny character, and led to some interesting and fun situations between the characters and NPC's. The problem was that after a few months I (and everyone else) started to hate this character. Though he was a powerful wizard, essential to the party's survival, nobody liked him. He always said the wrong things at the wrong time. I wasn't trying to thwart the DM -- I was correctly role-playing a well developed character -- but he had taken on a life of his own. I couldn't control him anymore, and he was ruining the game for everyone. My DM took me aside (like Cintra suggests), and we agreed to turn him into an NPC. Rolling up a new character was a huge relief!
That said, here's my 2cp. As a DM, I like to establish early on with my players that I'm using both game mechanics and story mechanics.
For example, during the first goblin raid, the PC's were fighting the set encounters, rolling dice to hit, etc. (game mechanics). I was also describing that all around them, members of the militia were engaged in their own battles against other goblins. Call me lazy, but I'm not going to set up a big spreadsheet with every militia member and every goblin, rolling dice each round to determine the tide of battle. But Sandpoint has a militia ... what are they doing? This is where story mechanics come in.
Another strategy is to move the "railroad tracks" under their feet. Your players refuse to hunt goblins? Have the goblins hunt them, until all of Thistletop comes to Sandpoint. They want to give everyone in Sandpoint swords so they don't have to help? Okay, how fast can the smithy make swords? Just fast enough so that there is always ONE gang of goblins that attacks the PC's directly! They decide to leave Sandpoint and go to a different part of the continent? Along the way, they stumble right into the middle of a goblin outpost (that happens to look a lot like Thistletop).
I realize that none of these suggestions make a bit of difference if the players are trying to derail the story. Best of luck!
Well. i am very curious to read what happens when the Sheriff gets back into town. and the Czarni have been trying to take over the Kitten's business for sometime. the Czarni can play this to there advantage as the PCs are in a perilious position with their status in the town. i would have the Czarni play the PCs against the Mayor/Sheriff by framing the PCs with more crimes. so crime lord like.
and the Czarni can start there own trade now since the Kitten has been closed. how many townspeople (men and women) are going to be upset by this? more than not i think.
oh and release the mentor. blindfolded and ignorant.
keep us up to date.
Wow. More good advice. I like some of the ideas I'm getting here.
I am going to chat with the players and make some points more obvious. One point I really want to get across is that if they "mobilize the townsfolk" to combat the goblins, they'll have a horde of low-level commoners on their hands, who aren't proficient in any "real" weapons (DMG says they're proficient in ONE weapon, I say it's knives or their primary tool for those who work with tools), have no armour, low hit points, and average stats to back them up. This seems to be one of the bigger sticking points. They really think the town would have an excellent chance of defending itself from the goblins. I've tried to point out that the town would take HEAVY losses and then they wouldn't have jobs (no more need for heroes).
Another point I need to make is that I need more fleshed out backgrounds for the characters, and they really need to work in some connection between their characters and Sandpoint. From what I've read, the entire adventure path keeps coming back to Sandpoint at some point in time. Without some connection to Sandpoint, the story just doesn't wash.
Then, to avoid having to do a "reset" or TPK to bring in new characters, I'm going to use some of the ideas above. Kettil (the mentor) will be set free, with a bit of information (blindfolded and all, but what he's overheard, and a message from the Sczarni). I like the idea of having the party manipulated by the Sczarni. There's some other ideas that have been offered that I like as well. Revenge against Nualia would be a good motivator (although they dispatched Tsuto already). I guess I have options and I can even offer them to the PCs as such. See which they take, which they refuse, mess with them some.
One last note, I guess I've overstated how nasty the PCs have been. I don't believe they're deliberately trying to undermine the adventures. I really don't think this is a case of players against the GM. I have been playing a bit of the hard-line, but that's mostly because I don't want to give them the feeling of being able to take on whatever they try (they should not be attacking great wyrms, thinking I'll let them win).
All in all, thanks for the great advice and ideas!
I will keep everyone informed how things go.
I do appreciate the great advice.
Things went well. I didn't have to beat any players over the head with any blunt instruments. My wife spoke up at the beginning of the game before I got a chance to say anything. I didn't prep her or anything, she just mentioned that they need to have open minds when trying things. It helps that she plays with 2 different groups, and I think that introduces her to more ideas. In any case...
They got the mentor back (Ketil). He was beat up pretty bad, but still alive. They were also made to feel pretty guilty for their treatment of Kaye (from the Pixie's Kitten). It didn't take much and they seem to have had a change of heart. I think they had a chance to think about what they had done, and decided to go back to being heroes. It made them far more popular in town.
They're even back at Thistletop, about to begin "negotiating" with Ripnugget. They decided to try to talk for a change. Go figure that the module basically says that Ripnugget will allow the PCs to think he's willing to talk, but isn't really interested. I hate to make their best attempt (so far) at diplomacy, turn into yet another combat. I'll let them get more talking in before instigating a fight. It should be noted that Gogmurt (the goblin druid) led them into Ripnugget's throne room, after taking a sound trouncing from the PCs.
Oh, I should also note that the PCs are currently worried that the Sczarni might show up and give them trouble, and they're also worried about the Sheriff's reaction to the whole ordeal with the Pixie's Kitten. He just returned back to town as they were heading out to Thistletop. They said a quick hello, and headed out without giving any details. When they get back to town, I'll certainly have more fun in store for them. For now, they've got some Gobbies to slay, and some NPCs (Nualia and Crew) to deal with. They should finally have some treasure after Thistletop too. (They haven't been looting anything so far, so the only pay they've gotten was from Aldern Foxglove. They're pretty broke, and only have a little better than starting equipment.)
If it all goes awry again, I have a suggestion: They end up in Korvosa. Run the adventure path as written there, with a little boosting, and they should fit right in with that path's themes of "fighting the powers that be".
Then, when they reach the end, Karzoug shows up, making the final battle a three way melee.