Note: I have not read the whole work yet, and naturally have not run a session yet.

I really like the explanation about what sort of PCs would work for the AP and why. I would say this is a must for every start of an AP.

- The plot is interesting and rich, powered by really cool characters.
- I like the focus on one area.

Cheers!

I agree with Elorebaen. Totally. That explanation of good PCs to use was indeed really great, along with the AP's assumptions. That's very valuable to GMs.

I'm also pretty pleased with the idea of "Fame Points", and am very interested in seeing how that goes, and how it'll work in the final chapters of the AP. I love little mini subsystems like this - not necessarily integral to the game and rules, but adds something 'more' to the campaign itself (but then, I thought Affiliations were the bees knees). And once I see them in action in CoT, I can then adapt the concept to any other campaign.

I thought the map of Westcrown was very disappointing - especially for an entire AP that will be set in the city and environs. While I think it's a great map for PCs, I find it completely unacceptable for the GMs' use. Hopefully this was just a minor experiment/flub on the part of Paizo and they go back to their superior city maps (that blows the rest of the industry out of the water) in all their future products. It's not quite a deal-breaker for me, but pretty darn close (as I love city maps). Hopefully the adventures themselves make up for it.

The rest of the maps were okay... the sewers were good, but the bridge ambush site was very blah. The Lair was the best of the bunch.

The Tiefling article was very good - it's Planescape's Planewalker's Handbook all over again (and that's a good thing). Not all that valuable to me as I've long since updated the Planewalker's Handbook to 3.5 for the tieflings in our game, but I really like the article anyways.

The bestiary symbols are... interesting... but not anything I'll ever use.

So far, it doesn't look like the PFRPG is overly obtrusive to those of us sticking with 3.5, so I'll remain hopeful on that front. So far, it looks like anything that doesn't have a proper set of statistics and only refers to a non-3.5 book (i.e. Bestiary) has a duplicate in the 3.5 rules, so I'm okay there. I do, however, very much fear getting a monster with no stats and a bestiary reference that doesn't exist in 3.5... That won't be very 3.5-compatible AFAIC.

The best artwork was on page 39. Wowza! The nifty city background picture at the beginning of the Journal is a close runner-up.

I thought the map of Westcrown was very disappointing - especially for an entire AP that will be set in the city and environs. While I think it's a great map for PCs, I find it completely unacceptable for the GMs' use. Hopefully this was just a minor experiment/flub on the part of Paizo and they go back to their superior city maps (that blows the rest of the industry out of the water) in all their future products. It's not quite a deal-breaker for me, but pretty darn close (as I love city maps).

It's part experiment, part fact that we don't have 100% control over what our artists deliver. But in the end it's a pretty fantastic piece, and the argument over whether any of our maps can be considered representational continues. Never expect us to say we're changing our philosophy on maps (or anything) from one stance to another wholesale, but we're always going to be trying new things. And really, with the almost Venetian themes of Council of Thieves, the more artistic map really captures that vibe, while still doing what we need it to do - showing locations in reference to one another.

Though I Prefer this 1800 Version..

I'm not all the way through it.. but I am intriqued by the "Maze Maps Don't Work" section.

You're right, even if you control the battlemat tightly with limited sight and vision, you can never fool the players with a static top-down map.

I have to reserve judgment until I read a bit more.. or play it out.. But that looks to be a thoughtful bit of experimental design work.

Venice?... Did you sau Venice?.... Like this late 1500s version?

Though I Prefer this 1800 Version..

Yeah, I definitely got a Venice vibe, which was a nice surprise. (And Dragnmoon, ya beat me to it!) As for the map, I thought it was fine for it to have a different feel -- gives the AP more of a distinctive look. I admit that I would have liked more detail, however.

I agree with the map looking more like a handout I would give a player. It is a great, flavorful map, but it utility does not seem to be as great. I prefer maps like the original Sandpoint map. The worldmap adn the Varisan map are examples that I like as well. That style of maps is one of the primary reasons i fell in love with the AP's. I beg you not to abandon the older style.

I beg you not to abandon the older style.

I really dig the new stat blocks

Dragnmoon wrote:

Venice?... Did you sau Venice?.... Like this late 1500s version?

Yah. Close. Like really darn close.

Dragnmoon wrote:

Though I Prefer this 1800 Version..

That's really interesting as well.

That library has a great collection of historical maps.

Looking at the PDFs now, I have to say I agree with the others with respect to the map. Specifically, I'm not a big fan of the colours used, although that may look better in print. My major thing on that though is just, more detail on a map = better... I like to say names of quaters and the odd street, even if I never use them :)

One question that has annoyed me through using pretty much every stat block ever..... Why are Ability scores included, but not modifiers?

I know that the mod is just floor((Stat-10)/2), but my players don't tend to remember things like that, so I end up writing the mod on their sheet for them.... Is the raw score *ever* used except in ability drain's (where you just alter the mod 1 point for every 2 the raw score changes...) or character generation/levelling?

One question that has annoyed me through using pretty much every stat block ever..... Why are Ability scores included, but not modifiers?

I know that the mod is just floor((Stat-10)/2), but my players don't tend to remember things like that, so I end up writing the mod on their sheet for them.... Is the raw score *ever* used except in ability drain's (where you just alter the mod 1 point for every 2 the raw score changes...) or character generation/levelling?

1) Calculating carrying capacity for Strength.

2) Ability damage; the "lose a bonus every other point" is a deliberate game design choice that helps to make ability damage less harrowing but still scary.

3) Many feats and some prestige classes require specific scores, and for the most part those score prerequisites are set at odd-numbered ability score totals so that not everything good happens on even numbers.

4) And, of course, tradition...

Etc.

As for why we don't list the bonuses for the stats, that's mostly because doing so starts to really clutter up the stat block with too much information. It's relatively easy to determine those bonuses, and we pre-calculate the bonuses into the stat blocks anyway so you shouldn't need to know the exact bonuses or every combat.

It might help to keep this equation in mind too for fast calculation of a really high stat:

(Ability Score – 10)÷2 = Ability Score Modifier (drop fractions)

So for a creature with a Strength of 342, you could calculate it's bonus this way:

(342–10)÷2 = +166

I like that they included the ability scores. I know in the rules they don't get used a ton. But in our group we use them a bit more. For ability test which is mostly strength test we use the raw score. So like if the two fighters arm wrestle they would roll d20+ str score(not the mod the score)

I guess I just find the modifier gets used a lot more at the table, than the raw mod, especially at low levels.

At least with the new stat block, there is a nice big space for me to write the mod in for my players ;)

Thanks for the response though James, it's appreciated (even if you did post a longer version of my own formula back at me :) )

Thanks for the response though James, it's appreciated (even if you did post a longer version of my own formula back at me :) )

Nevynxxx wrote:

Thanks for the response though James, it's appreciated (even if you did post a longer version of my own formula back at me :) )

Blame that on pre-Gen Con madness if you will.

I would like to point out too, that I'm talking about the Iconic stat blocks here, rather than the ones within the actual adventure. I see these as mostly for new players, and hence, it seems strange that the mods are missing.

I don't miss them in the internal blocks. As far as the NPC blocks go; Thank you all for putting the XP in the stat block! I loved that in the bonus bestiary, it will save sooo much flicking through books/pdfs.

If I wrote Pathfinder 2.0, you'd only use the 3-18 ability scores at character generation, and thereafter everything would be based on the ability modifiers only. One less thing to derive, over and over again, on the character sheet and every monster stat block....

...I wrote Pathfinder 2.0

;-P

Sean Mahoney

If I wrote Pathfinder 2.0, you'd only use the 3-18 ability scores at character generation, and thereafter everything would be based on the ability modifiers only. One less thing to derive, over and over again, on the character sheet and every monster stat block....

LOL..just use dots!

[rain man]Storm Giant.... definitely a storm giant[/rain man]

I'm going to offer a dissenting opinion on Bastards of Erebus. I wasn't a fan.

I really like the feel of Westcrown. I like the outline of the plot of Council of Thieves as a whole. But Bastards of Erebus fell flat for me. Part of my problem, I think, is that not much happens. There's a sewer crawl, a daring heist and a small dungeon crawl. The heist and the crawl are pretty cool, but a lot of word-count is spent on explaining situations--the "maze without mapping" concept for the sewers takes up a lot more room than it needs to get the point across, I think. It also feels somewhat railroady. I know, I know. These are Adventure Paths, not Adventure Zones or Outlines or what have you. But the tracks are particularly noticeable here. You even get bonus XP for diving into the sewer and doing the crawl, rather than for creative thinking or taking a stand (and I don't feel that it's especially well explained why the ranger would leave the party behind--I know, to make them feel more proactive, especially after being led about by the nose up to that point, but I feel like her departure could have been handled more elegantly). The PCs don't even really get the option of planning the daring heist aspect--they only get to choose one map or the other to use.

There are the little suggested interludes to flesh out, but that's one of my problems with Bastards of Erebus. Those interludes sound decidedly more interesting and eventful than the first half of the actual module. Don't get me wrong, I don't hate Bastards of Erebus (I hated the adventure in Memory of Darkness, and I'm glad so far that that's the only Pathfinder I have hated), but it fell flat for me.

I will say, though, that the Bestiary is one of the best yet. I love the shadowbeasts, and I'm definitely looking forward to the themed monster sets and the devil per issue.

Just a quick question and please excuse its forty one flavours of dumb, but how are you guys getting visual access to Bastards of Erebus? Is there something I'm just doing wrong? I started my AP subscription with this and damn me if I'm not looking forward to it... but I just don't have it yet, pdf or otherwise. Any help professional or otherwise would be appreciated.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

Just a quick question and please excuse its forty one flavours of dumb, but how are you guys getting visual access to Bastards of Erebus? Is there something I'm just doing wrong? I started my AP subscription with this and damn me if I'm not looking forward to it... but I just don't have it yet, pdf or otherwise. Any help professional or otherwise would be appreciated.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

Herreman, where it says, "Welcome, Herreman" at the top of the page, the fourth option over to the left should be "My Downloads". Your AP should be there, zipped for Personalization and then Download, once your shipment is in the mail. Unzipping should get you your pdf. Welcome!

Just a quick question and please excuse its forty one flavours of dumb, but how are you guys getting visual access to Bastards of Erebus? Is there something I'm just doing wrong? I started my AP subscription with this and damn me if I'm not looking forward to it... but I just don't have it yet, pdf or otherwise. Any help professional or otherwise would be appreciated.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

Double check with cust serv to see when it will ship. Once it ships and you are charged for the AP you will get access to the pdf DL.

Herremann, you should have gotten your AP by now. Its possible since you just started your subscription that it accidentally got slotted for September shipment with the "ship monthly" option due to a glich, as mine did. For some reason my August shipment never spawned, sadly (included my core book ack). If this is the case you will see your AP issue still stuck forlornly in your sidecart.

Double check with cust serv to see when it will ship. Once it ships and you are charged for the AP you will get access to the pdf DL.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

After browsing the PDF, I want to say big kudos to Paizo for coming up with the AP's new art style and keeping it consistent throughout the book. I don't want to rehearse the old 'is the map useful' argument, just wanted to get off my chest that in terms of pure visual enjoyment, it is the best-looking AP you guys have produced so far, and that's saying something after LoF. Keep up the good work :).

just wanted to get off my chest that in terms of pure visual enjoyment, it is the best-looking AP you guys have produced so far, and that's saying something after LoF. Keep up the good work :).

The setting is probably my favorite part of this one, Westcrown will be very entertaining to steal ideas from. The setting is great.

The map is a bit different, about the only addition I would have liked added would be listing where the districts are in the DM copy. Now I must say that this type of map is PERFECT for players as a handout! Absolutely perfect.

The sewer crawl was well executed. Reminded me of the Curse of the Crimson Thrones approach to the chase on The Shingles.

I really like what was done with the Tieflings! It was a gem I was not really expecting.

Arrogant opera stars might have been the high point for me.

I am a little concerned about this volume of CoT. the overall qualty is great, intreducing a great plot and some awesome new creatures, splendid encounters and fantastic art- Iv'e come to expect those from Paizo, so I see no need to further comment about them. evreyone knows they are there.
I do, however, feel that things are being a little rushed. huge XP awards ensure that the PCs will scale up level with no need to actually fight through many encounters to achive it. I mean, 1,200 XP award for compleating the first encounter?
I mean, think about it. in CotCs' EoA the players faced 7 major encounter areas (spoiler):

as well as verious random encounters. SDs SitS had a similar number of encounters. in Bastards, wev'e got three. seems like there is barely any action going on.

why is the main adventure so... short?

Spoilers:

I love the space devoted to the fellow travelers, with one set for each PC class. That's excellent. You really need that kind of detail for this ensemble of sidekicks to work. I love the mental image the rescue mission, although I'd have liked it to be like the roof top chase from CotCT instead of a slow turn back to town. I wasn't a fan of the sewer crawl, although the chase aspect leads me to believe it might be thrilling at the table.

Why the map matters:
In order for a revolution centered in a city to matter, you have to care about the city. You end up knowing Sandpoint cold. You end up knowing your slice of Riddleport cold. Korvosa you know best of all. Here, I don't feel like I know enough about this town. The map's a part of that, the less space devoted to describing the town is a part of that. But, yes, I really do need to know as much as possible about the town. I don't need to know how long it takes to get from one place to another, but I do need to know more than a dozen locations in the town. In short, the DM needs a more detailed map than this one, although the current one is a great player handout.

And this matters most of all because this AP could be a very precious experience for players, who may get to change the world to their liking as their primary experience, rather than just save it, which is much more reactive. I REALLY like what this path promises to do.

Just a thought on the city map. I don't intend to run this AP until at least the third installment (probably later) so that I can develop my own cerebral connections between Renaissance Vicenza (Venice) and Westcrown. My players will have a very grounded idea of what the city feels like.

I love the Paizo community, not just the editors and writers, but also all of you board degenerates. Perhaps we could start a thread with short bios, character traits, location descriptions and little character hooks used. As a community we can make this city come alive. I don't wish to accuse any one of being lazy, but we are playing the most Creative, story-telling game on the planet, we need to make our own stories happen.

Something like this:

Sesquetera's House of Fire, Rego Pena, Ponte Taranik (the Taranik Bridge street).
Craspin "Crackles" Sesquetera (Gnome Wizard 2/Expert 8) has been in the pyrotechnics business for over 50 years in Westcrown. Having lost his legs in an unfortunate encounter with a Bullette in his early adventuring years, Crackles has become strangely domesticated for a gnome. His business has survived the years in Westcrown mostly due to the government contract he has supplying enormous rockets for the celebrations surrounding Rova, the traditional Chelaxian Signing day. Crackles has also used his long-time connections to be a trusted informant to Paralictor Gonville Chard. He has no problem turning over the names of competitors, ne'er do wells and noisome neighbors to the Paralictor, in order to keep his business thriving. Crackles keeps a false smile on his face at all times. he is self-deprecating about his Gnomishness, but only as bait for an insult from others. He is vindictive to a fault.
Connection to party: Yakopulio's brother Juniperi used to work for Crackles. Unfortunately for Juniperi, he landed on Crackles's bad side one day after a joke cracked about missing legs. Two weeks later, Juniperi was arrested for treason and theft of government fireworks. Juniperi's execution is one of Yakopulio's main motivations to join the Children of Westcrown. Characters may also be looking for some explosives or spell components.

why is the main adventure so... short?

The adventure lengths are going to vary a bit more now that we've got more room with the end of the set pieces. "Bastards of Erebus" is probably the shortest they'll get. Other adventures will be longer as needed (and as they get higher level, they'll need it simply because we'll be using more stat blocks).

BTW. One of things I appreciated about Keith Baker's Eberron is that he gave a list of inspirational movies for the campaign setting. Any ideas for COT?

So far I have,
All of the Godfathers
Thief Lord
Dark Portals: The Chronicles of Vidoq
Amadeus

But my memory is eluding me right now.

The movies that inspired the creation of Council of Thieves are:

The Godfather
The Omen
Susperia
Inferno
Mother of Tears

I do, however, feel that things are being a little rushed. huge XP awards ensure that the PCs will scale up level with no need to actually fight through many encounters to achive it. I mean, 1,200 XP award for compleating the first encounter?

All I can do when I read this adventure is think of Batman. This is a good thing. I don't even think I'll have trouble keeping PCs to goodish alignments.

The movies that inspired the creation of Council of Thieves are:

The Godfather
The Omen
Susperia
Inferno
Mother of Tears

The movies that inspired the creation of Council of Thieves are:

The Godfather
The Omen
Susperia
Inferno
Mother of Tears

I know some DM's probably won't see this as a good thing, but I like the fact that while there is a certain amount of railroading (which any DM will probably admit they do, in one fashion or another), other than a few set scenes, what and how the party gets from beginning to end of the adventure has enough flexibility to allow for a groups playstyle (which keeps me from having to rewrite any major sections, instead I can add in the stuff that will keep my group happy without having to rework major parts of the adventure). Add in the bestiary and additional material on westcrown and teiflings, and I do have to say, its pretty freaking awesome in my book.

Oh! Yeah! The China Syndrome is VERY MUCH the inspiration for part four of Council of Thieves, named (aptly enough) "The Infernal Syndrome."

As for the Argento movies... one of the big NPCs in this AP is a hag named the Mother of Flies (inspired in no small part by the Mother of Sighs, Mother of Tears, and Mother of Shadows from Argento's trilogy). In addition, the concept in Argento's movies that there were three very unusual houses with very unusual histories has parallels in Council of thieves...

The AP #1 suggests the party is gaining fame in Westcrown, but aren't they an underground rebel group? How are they becoming known?

The AP #1 suggests the party is gaining fame in Westcrown, but aren't they an underground rebel group? How are they becoming known?

I did not like anything this module. It is short, is poorly developed, and has nothing of the originality that characterizes Paizo's adventures (originality that made me fall in love with your work)

I hope the next volumes are much better.

Chiming in to agree with those who think it's too short.

Not enough fighting:
Players who are relatively new to the game, or even just new to their class, need to learn their abilities from the ground up.

They get 60% of the way from zero to 2nd level before they ever even make a single d20 roll, other than maybe a few (unnecessary) rolls to gather information or make local knowledge checks.

They get an equal amount shortly thereafter for reaching Part Three of the adventure - they just reached level 2 without ever needing to roll a d20.

Sure, in between the AP offers a handful of combats that it actually lists as optional - depending on the group and the DM, it could be zero, one, ten, twenty... Clearly we don't want them leveling too fast since later in the adventure it says they should be partway through 2nd level but just those two story awards alone practically achieve this, so there will be fairly few fights.

Then the characters are 2nd level, dealing with new abilities before they even got a real handle on their level 1 abilities, and they are thrown into an encounter that is possibly CR 7. Yikes! Talk about a TPK waiting to happen...

Etc.

The pace is super fast with few encounters (not even many RP/Social encounters which is suprising for an urban adventure).

All and all, the meat of this adventure begins on page 10 and ends on page 47. That's just 37 pages of meaty goodness, and even that is really fluffed out quite a bit by long rambling discussions on design (how to run a maze takes nearly a full page) and fluffy descriptions of environment (over half a page to explain sewers that felt it like it could have been just 2-3 paragraphs maybe), etc.

So all said, maybe not much more than 30 pages of adventuring stuff here.

On the other hand, the rest is fairly well done. It's a new AP, so there should be pages about setting up a new party and introducing them. It's a city, so there should be pages about the city and the government and the populace in general. It's the start of a long AP, so there should be pages about the AP itself and where we're headed and what's going on.

All that stuff is there, it's interesting, and it's well-written. I wanted more, actually (yes, I know, that's at odds with also wanting more adventur stuff).

As for people's complaints about the maps, well, I don't mind so much. I redraw everything on a gamemat anyway, or I use dungeon tiles or map packs or flip mats. The players don't see the maps in the book. And I often embellish a bit anyway, so no real worries on the maps, except maybe the city map which, as others have mentioned, seemed a bit lacking.

Just chiming in to say that I like the module as it is, and like the less combat intense start. An urban adventure should use combat sparingly.

I'll confess, so far I have less of a draw than I have for the last few 1st installments, but maybe it's the new format...

Runelords was good, CoCT I liked, Second Darkness I read, Legacy of Fire REALLY drew me, but Bastards just seems to fall flat.

I'll come back with specifics, but it may just be the voice.

Really love the First Instalment. Lack of encounters dosent bother me since I add a lot of my own stuff anyway (That and I run using 3.5 advancement) So I'll probably just drop the random extra xp.