Did a quick search and didn't find anyone else asking this question so I figured I'd ask (sorry if it is a repeat):

Can a multiclassed Rogue/Wizard sneak attack with Hand of the Apprentice? It doesn't threaten foes, and therefore can't flank, but if there was another condition that caused a foe to lose its dexterity what would prevent a sneak attack?

Also. . .does the +damage from Int get multiplied with a critical hit with a weapon wielded by the Apprentice?

And, though it isn't quite on topic, is an Elven rogue proficient with an elven thinblade? (Racial states that you can use it as a *martial* weapon if it is a racial weapon, but rogues aren't expressly proficient with martial weapons other than the Rapier. . . but the rapier does share weapon focus/etc. with the thinblade. Not sure what to think here.

Thanks for looking and helping!

~S

No ideas? (bump?)

Can a multiclassed Rogue/Wizard sneak attack with Hand of the Apprentice? It doesn't threaten foes, and therefore can't flank, but if there was another condition that caused a foe to lose its dexterity what would prevent a sneak attack?

I don't see a reason why not.

Also. . .does the +damage from Int get multiplied with a critical hit with a weapon wielded by the Apprentice?

I'm not sure.

And, though it isn't quite on topic, is an Elven rogue proficient with an elven thinblade? (Racial states that you can use it as a *martial* weapon if it is a racial weapon, but rogues aren't expressly proficient with martial weapons other than the Rapier. . . but the rapier does share weapon focus/etc. with the thinblade. Not sure what to think here.

I would allow it in my games. It sounds right. *shrugs* But it is not allowed RAW, IMO.

Also. . .does the +damage from Int get multiplied with a critical hit with a weapon wielded by the Apprentice?

I would say yes, because Wizard is just using magic to do the same thing that the Fighter dose normally with out magic. The Wizard is just subbing his Int for his Str. Other then that, the only deferents is the Mage attack from across the room. So the Wizard's Int would get multiplied with critical hits.

It would work just like a ranged attack.

But without penalties for cover o close combat.

I play a rogue/wizard and that didn't even occur to me. I would say sneak works.
I have doubts that hand of the apprentice will stay the same in later revisions however. It is just too powerful and useful for a 1st lvl power.

We REALLY need adjudication and/or guidance from Sean or someone on this.... It's already come up quite a bit in our game.

Does the hand hover out there? Or does it dark back and forth from the square of the user? If it stays out, it can presumably be sundered. It specifically doesn't threaten, but if it stays out, does it occupy a space? Can it be positioned above the attacker? Does it flank? Can it be used to sneak attack?

If the caster uses Hand from concealment, can he sneak attack with it? Even if it hovers out there? Can he sneak attack if it doesn't, using the ranged sneak attack rules? Repeatedly?

Does the caster gain iterative attacks at any point?

Wow... This is a crazy issue.

We REALLY need adjudication and/or guidance from Sean or someone on this.... It's already come up quite a bit in our game.

Does the hand hover out there? Or does it dark back and forth from the square of the user? If it stays out, it can presumably be sundered. It specifically doesn't threaten, but if it stays out, does it occupy a space? Can it be positioned above the attacker? Does it flank? Can it be used to sneak attack?

If the caster uses Hand from concealment, can he sneak attack with it? Even if it hovers out there? Can he sneak attack if it doesn't, using the ranged sneak attack rules? Repeatedly?

Does the caster gain iterative attacks at any point?

Wow... This is a crazy issue.

I have posted the full text in the ever-growing current thread on HotA mechanics, in case anyone needs a reference.

It does state that the hand hovers out there (it only returns when concentration is broken) and it does explicitly state it cannot flank or take AoOs - it does not threaten. Because it does not threaten, we've been playing that it can stop in the same square as an enemy. I'd rule it can hover above the enemy as long as you don't exceed the range - get out your Pythagorean Theorem for that one.

As for sneak attack - whoo, hadn't thought of that, and that's a thorny one. Sneak attack is a special ability, it's sorta like a feat. Can you channel feats through HotA? Not ruled in, not ruled out. But if you can - that means you can put weapon finesse through it, focus, or maybe improved crit - what a mess. I'd say no sneak attacks with it, though I can see the case for allowing it. But without it being explicitly ruled in, it makes a big mess even bigger. And don't you need to threaten, essentially, for sneak attack?

I'd imagine it can be sundered, even grappled or stolen from the caster. How would I adjudicate that? No idea.

HotA is a can of worms that has been opened by extremely ambiguous text. :( It needs to be rewritten, from scratch, with explicit mechanics. I hope Jason is seeing these - Sean has already passed it on to him (as you can see in the thread I've linked).

I would allow it, within 30 feet of the caster like a ranged sneak attack.

>I have posted the full text in the ever-growing current thread on HotA mechanics, in case anyone needs a reference.

Thanks.

> Because it does not threaten, we've been playing that it can stop in the same square as an enemy.

I think if an object like this moves and hovers into your square, you should get an Attack of Opportunity on it as it moves into or within your threatened area, which would necessarily have to take the form of a sunder to have an effect.

>But without it being explicitly ruled in, it makes a big mess even bigger. And don't you need to threaten, essentially, for sneak attack?

>I'd imagine it can be sundered, even grappled or stolen from the caster. How would I adjudicate that?...

Well, you don't need to threaten to sneak attack. As a counterexample, I'd point ot sneak attacking with a ranged weapon. I don't know you could grapple the hand, as it's semi-incorporeal, but I think you could disarm it.

Jeez. This is going to be tough. Needs to be in the book, too.

Well, you don't need to threaten to sneak attack.

...

Jeez. This is going to be tough. Needs to be in the book, too.

That's a good point. I revert to "no freaking clue". :)