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This is a general question for the community. I'm in the early design stage of a homegrown campaign world for my players, and I'm using the Pathfinder rules to do. It's not the Pathfinder setting, but I'm incorporating a lot of it. One of the things I'm going ahead with is the Pathfinder deities (except for the God of Magic, which hasn't existed for nearly a thousand years. Major plot element there). They're refreshing and interesting.

Now, here's what I am currently working on. There is a need in the capitol city for an elite group of law enforcement officers, whose main function is to deal with illegal wizards and sorcerers. I necessarily don't want them to be a Prestige Class. My initial thoughts are to make them an order of paladins, and since they are enforcing the Law of the capitol city, I thought about making them paladins of Abadar.

I know nothing of this god other than what is presented in the Alpha 3 release. He's a LN god of cities and protection, which is ultimately what made me think he was appropriate. I am, however, unsure of how a LG order of Paladins would carry about under the banner of a LN deity. Perhaps I should just make them clerics? Do any of you have some thoughts about this?

(Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber)

That's a good question, and I don't think I have a good answer for this. I will point out that there is certainly precedent for Paladins of Abadar. One of them lives in Sandpoint, after all, and generated a fairly interesting thread a while back.

I don't have my book in front of me, but doesn't the write-up on Abadar give some tips?

Basically, I would approach it like this: they tend to endorse Abadar's teachings, but they focus on the good things those teachings can bring. Instead just being about Law, they focus on the positive aspects of law--such as safety and organized protection for the downtrodden. They can focus on the benefits of civilization--comfort and an arguably better life for those who live in a civilized area. Wealth--it gives one the power to make many decisions about one's own destiny and can be used to take care of one's family.

That being said, Abadar is not exactly a paragon of benevolence, and I think his Paladins would have to work fairly hard to stay mindful of the "good" aspect of their alignments. I once played in a campaign with a paladin who seemed much more Lawful Neutral than Lawful Good, and I think Abadar's Paladins would tend to lean that way, too.

I do have some misgivings with regard to the concept of "illegal" mages, but I'll leave that for another time.

I hope some of this helps.


Shanson wrote:

This is a general question for the community. I'm in the early design stage of a homegrown campaign world for my players, and I'm using the Pathfinder rules to do. It's not the Pathfinder setting, but I'm incorporating a lot of it. One of the things I'm going ahead with is the Pathfinder deities (except for the God of Magic, which hasn't existed for nearly a thousand years. Major plot element there). They're refreshing and interesting.

Now, here's what I am currently working on. There is a need in the capitol city for an elite group of law enforcement officers, whose main function is to deal with illegal wizards and sorcerers. I necessarily don't want them to be a Prestige Class. My initial thoughts are to make them an order of paladins, and since they are enforcing the Law of the capitol city, I thought about making them paladins of Abadar.

I know nothing of this god other than what is presented in the Alpha 3 release. He's a LN god of cities and protection, which is ultimately what made me think he was appropriate. I am, however, unsure of how a LG order of Paladins would carry about under the banner of a LN deity. Perhaps I should just make them clerics? Do any of you have some thoughts about this?

I don't see what the problem with that would be. After all, the way the alighnment rules are written you can have a LG claeric of a LN god, or a LN cleric of a LG god for that matter.

Andoran (Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion Subscriber)

Abadar, as a deity, focuses very heavily on the law itself, with a lesser-but-still-significant emphasis on the order that proper obedience to the law creates. His paladins, on the other hand, are likely to be as concerned with the spirit of the law as its letter, looking for means to interpret it such as to create not only order but prosperity and a generally positive improvement in quality of life. If the law allows mercy, they will prefer to grant it; they will offer second chances over draconian responses if such are available.

Note, too, that Abadar, in his role as Keeper of the First Vault, in effect has access to the Platonic ideal of everything. Abadar's followers, when they try to write laws, attempt to mirror the attributes of the Ideal Law stored in the Vault. You could easily create a Abadar-based paladin order by including some more Platonic philosphy, where they not only try to embody the Ideal Law but also the Ideal Good, particularly if they see one or the other as a means to reach or embody its counterpart.

Grand Lodge (Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Adventure Path, Campaign Setting Subscriber)

Have you considered using Monks instead? Maybe equip them with a suitably impressive quarterstaff or other monkish type weapon such as a temple sword? My DM has a mercenary monastic order known as the battlestaves which are monks which also incorporate access to some high tech battlestaves they essentially hired themselves out to a Drow city to be it's law and order. as they were not tied to any of the noble houses.

They can be as Lawful as you want without having any of that Good baggage.


[threadjack]i always thought paladins really were lawful neutral anyway. no one that annoying could really be "good", could they?[/threadjack]


well ya can by the rules have a LG,LN or NG God. But there are some oddballs like sune in the FR shes CG and has paladins.


The way I see it, gods have only limited control of their portfolios. Once they have a body of worshippers they must accept the possibility of conflicting philosophy and schism, while remaining the one and true deity of both groups.

In Abadar's case his paladins could interpret their worship in different terms than the clergy, and perhaps hold certain scripture to be more true than others: a righteous military arm to an intransigent priesthood. I don't think Abadar would abandon his holy warriors because they have a riff with the priests about taxation. The worshippers shape the church as much as the god does, imho. Sounds like a good opportunity for drama.

On a side note, Paladins of Abadar can only invest hand crossbows with holy energy (as per Beta), which makes for an odd visual. They're like Cowboys of the First Vault.


You can keep them LG, make them LN or a mix of the two based on the variant SRD alignment Paladins (Freedom, Slaughter, And Tyranny).


I use the same rules for paladins as one uses for clerics with respect to how far they can deviate from their god's alignment. Therefore, all LG, LN, and NG deities have paladin orders. It appears that Paizo uses this same logic.

The way I see it, here's how it goes:

Paladins of LG deities have it the easiest. The church and its paladins see eye-to-eye on just about everything. There may be minor quibbles over bits of doctrine, but these are finer points. The paladin has the full support of his or her respective church, and they will actively avoid putting their favored champions in positions where they have to make difficult choices if they can. Therefore, a paladin may run into a moral quandry out in the field, but it's highly unlikely it'll happen to him in the temple.

Paladins of NG deities don't have it quite as easy as those of LG churches, but it's still a pretty smooth ride. While the more ethically-flexible members of the faith may find the paladin's honor and discipline either chafing, pitiable, or both, they certainly respect their commitment to righteousness and are grateful for their singlemindedness where virtue is concerned. The paladin may get into some tense situations with his church, but as good people, they respect him,and he respects them.

Paladins of LN deities may have it easier or harder depending on the faith. The way I see it, LN churches fall into one of two main categories: Churches that would be LG, but that would limit the methods of their evil-fighting faithful (Deities like St. Cuthbert, Helm, Hoar, and the like fall into this category. Gods with portfolios like Justified Vengeance, Retribution, Protection, and Justice are usually in this category. If in doubt, go ahead and assume.). These paladins usually get the support of their churches, who will sometimes send less-savory operatives into situations where a paladin wouldn't go. These churches carefully avoid putting their elite evil-slaying operatives in situations where they would lose their ability to slay evil things as effectively as possible. In general, as long as these paladins are hunting down bad guys, they'll be fine. They also probably enjoy very flexible, pragmatic codes, meaning they can do things a normal paladin couldn't, and may even have access to the Gray Guard PrC or something similar.

Paladins of LN deities that don't fall into the above category have it the worst. Their churches have other things that they see as far more important than the paladin's paladinhood, and will callously put paladins in catch 22 situations without even realizing it. These paladins must develop a great deal of both creativity and political acumen if they wish to continue being paladins for any length of time. Paladins of Abadar, Wee Jas, and the like would fit into this category.


Something I have always done, and allowed my players to do.

Play a Paladin, choose a God to follow, and BE that Gods alignment.

In my eyes, Paladins are the epitome of what a crusader is for that specific God. They are his sword and shield, his holy fighter, the one who will, at all costs, bring his Gods name to the land without self-thought.

A Paladin lives to do his Gods work. This isnt just a Cleric, who preaches and converts the masses. This is a strongarm who shows that the God is not weak, and has men and women ready to defend that belief.

Now, I usually have the Paladin be Lawful. Its hard to follow the tenants of your God if you are not obeying them in some way.

Just my two cents.


Same here...
A Paladin is the extreme warrior-embodiment of her/his deity...
pick a deity you are that alignment...


One problem I have with LG as a requirement for Paladins is the deities presented in so many cases in 3.5 have paladins that follow them even though they could not keep their paladin abilities or advance in the class by the rules because of the alignment of the deity. Another is trying to explain to my players the reasoning behind the alignment restrictions. Yes, think that there should be some restrictions, a paladin follows a very strict rules ( compared to any other group I can think of in fantasy settings) for what they can do. Paladins have responsilities to people based on how their deities view people, good, bad, or indifferent. However, all paladins live a life that is dominated by a code that they must follow.Gamewise there should be some code/alignment restrictions that a paladin needs to follow, but Neutral and evil paladins should be available as well.


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