The thread I recently started is for proposed skill systems in a complete form. This thread is to make suggestions to modify any proposed system, weight the relative quality, and criticize aspects that you feel need improvement.

Thank you for your cooperation.

ok I'M gonna throw mine up there . mine is basically the alpha with one change. every time you get a new skill you add the level modifier starting from the level they get it not total level
lets look at a 6th level charter with lets say climb lets say strength of 17+3
climb 3 str17+3+6 that's +12 at 1st cross would be 3+3+3=+9
2nd 3+3+5=+11 and cross 3+3+2=+8
4th 3+3+3=+9 cross 3+3+1=+7
6th 3+3+1=+7 cross 3+3+0=+6

now I think this system would be easy will not make you as good with a skill you just took as one you have had for ages.

yay i havent lost my mind there are two threads lol

Conqman -

I want to make sure I understand the system that you propse...

It seems that any skill that you have not taken is considered 'untrained', but that allows you to make a check?

So, for example, if I am untrained in Knowledge (dungeoneering) but I am 10th level, I am allowed to make a check of d20+5+Int mod to see if I know something about it?

One thing that I'm not keen on is the +3 artifact. It is only included because it made sense in 3.5. I think there should be a better way to make the bonus that doesn't involve adding in what to a new player would seem like a totally random number. Why not +5 or +1? The only reason is that in 3.5 at 1st level you could have +4 ranks...

So, I certainly would like a system that gets away from that.

Conqman -

I want to make sure I understand the system that you propse...

It seems that any skill that you have not taken is considered 'untrained', but that allows you to make a check?

So, for example, if I am untrained in Knowledge (dungeoneering) but I am 10th level, I am allowed to make a check of d20+5+Int mod to see if I know something about it?

One thing that I'm not keen on is the +3 artifact. It is only included because it made sense in 3.5. I think there should be a better way to make the bonus that doesn't involve adding in what to a new player would seem like a totally random number. Why not +5 or +1? The only reason is that in 3.5 at 1st level you could have +4 ranks...

So, I certainly would like a system that gets away from that.

I agree with you that the +3 in the trained check is for compatibility's sake, if I haven't thought in compatibility I would have gone for the much simpler '1d20+Level+Ability Mod.+Misc' for trained checks. I am with you in that I would like a system that got rid of old edition's arbitrarieties but the 'compatibility' aim of the PRPG seems to pull in the opposite direction in some aspects.

In Microlite20 (Microlite20) the skill system is as follows:

"There are just 4 skills : Physical, Subterfuge, Knowledge and
Communication. Roll higher than the given Difficulty Class to
succeed.

Skill rank = your level + any bonus due to your class or race.
Skill roll = d20 + skill rank + whatever stat bonus is most
applicable to the use + situation modifiers

For example, Climbing would use Physical + STR bonus. Dodging
a falling rock is Physical + DEX bonus. Finding a trap is
Subterfuge + MIND bonus. Disabling a trap is Subterfuge + DEX
bonus."

The modifiers from class/race are as follows:

Humans get +1 to all skill rolls
Fighters have a +3 bonus to Physical
Rogues have a +3 bonus to Subterfuge
Magi gain a +3 bonus to Knowledge
Clerics gain +3 bonus to Communication

Now, I'm not suggesting this system as is, it is obviously a very simplified system, but what about something similar where you have "groupings" of related skills and he classes best associated with each grouping get a bonus to those skill checks that the other classes don't?

You could use a feat to get extra points at x number of levels to specialize in a skill (or skill set), or at every 2nd or 3rd level you get to pick a skill to increase your "specialization"?

I'm pretty well in favor of your system, Mosaic.

I remain unconvinced that a distinction between class skill and cross class is necessary, and I'm also somewhat wary of some of the proposed combinations (fly as part of acrobatics, for instance).

Considering I've onboard with the underlying concepts that went into the system from the start, how can I not approve. That is the EMSSPS, DDW1C, and LZSC. Although the EMSSPS is still missing the "+ Miscellaneous Modifiers" that it should.

Many ranks devoted to Bias(Skill Points). It achieves the primary goal of making high level NPC and PC character creation faster, while retaining a good connection to 3e. Particularly when it comes to complex multiclassed characters.

I'm less concerned about the class/cross-class destination. I don't mind the idea that some classes favor certain skills over others.

The skill combinations are another issue. It is an element we're likely going to be debating and testing into and through the Beta.

Considering I've onboard with the underlying concepts that went into the system from the start, how can I not approve. That is the EMSSPS, DDW1C, and LZSC. Although the EMSSPS is still missing the "+ Miscellaneous Modifiers" that it should.

Many ranks devoted to Bias(Skill Points). It achieves the primary goal of making high level NPC and PC character creation faster, while retaining a good connection to 3e. Particularly when it comes to complex multiclassed characters...

I like points 2 and 3, See (no class skill distinction, retro int bonus). Synergy bonuses are fine, but I'm not attached, and it looks like for simplicity they'll likely die.

But don't you think your system should go a little further toward combining some skills? Spot/Listen and Move Silently/Hide at least (since it is kind of silly to make someone roll two skill checks when sneaking and noticing someone sneaking...

Considering I've onboard with the underlying concepts that went into the system from the start, how can I not approve. That is the EMSSPS, DDW1C, and LZSC.

Although the EMSSPS is still missing the "+ Miscellaneous Modifiers" that it should.

Many ranks devoted to Bias(Skill Points). It achieves the primary goal of making high level NPC and PC character creation faster, while retaining a good connection to 3e. Particularly when it comes to complex multiclassed characters.

Anyone took a look at my proposal?
I would be happy to get some constructive feedback.

I did. And all in all giving a bonus to people who choose to take a class skill isn't a bad way to represent they have a 'better understanding' of that skill. Thus people without having it as a class skill can have a bonus equal to their level in ranks, but people with a class skill can have level +3, and the number of skills they have at 1st level determines how many skills they can 'master'.

Thus a rogue could start w/ 4 ranks in 8 skills assuming he assigned those eight to his class skills.

I personally think that it isn't a terrible idea, but I'd rather see the idea of class skills eliminated completely. I have determined that the distinction does little to improve the game and I don't see a problem with a class choosing a non-standard skill for that class. I think we can trust players to justify why they choose it, and this simply means characters with more points are still clearly better - not because they have better access to skills but because they have more skill choices.

I'm not being picky as Kirth Gersen got me started on that line of thinking. You should have seen what I was trying to make on my own before Paizo announced Pathfinder. 3 tiered price system based on a skill's relevance to PCs. Yuck.

The "+ Miscellaneous Modifier" was something that got pointed out by confused people not using their brains. In a full rules write-up the Check modifier should read like:

1d20 + ability modifier + skill rank + miscellaneous modifiers.

Just a minor nit-pick.

DracoDruid, I'm not sure at the moment. The automax at 1st level bugs me slightly. I'd like to find some way to get a bit of variance at 1st level. Although I'm starting to see DeadDMWalkings point about totally removing class/cross-class distinctions.

My only real concern is Prestige Class Perquisites, for any system that doesn't somehow keep current class/cross-class rank values. Then again most PrCs have better access controls the just cross-class skill ranks. I'll have to go look back through various books.

Mosiac,

1) I really like putting Disable Magical Traps with Use magic Device. Those two tricks fit together verry nicely. I applaud you and anyone else who thought of that.
If someone is using class-skills, I think Bards would/should have this new class skill(they already have UMD). Disabling magical traps could easily fit into their description and give them a new trick for their (some would say limited) arsenal.

2) INT score ability increase/retro skill points. I think this is a must-do for math simplicity. Plus it can be explained just as you have done. I had house-ruled it with a similar description. Basically,

a)The character had to be doing something in their off hours to increase their Intelligence, such as studying at a library.

b) In their studies they read up on the things of interest to them, and by doing so, learned ways to improve their skill in those areas.