Welcome to the eighth stage of the playtest for the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game. We have now wrapped up the first seven stages of the playtest, which took a look at the Ability Scores, Races, Skills, Feats, Prestige Classes, and all of the base classes. Next up on the agenda is a short break to take a look at the equipment and description chapters (Ch 7 + 8). Since I do not expect these to be particularly contentious chapters, there is only one week schedule to discuss them. As a general note, if the rules would not be placed in this chapter, then it should probably wait (so discussing an the spiked chain is perfectly relevant here, but the trip mechanics is not). When discussing topics in this playtest, start your thread title out with the general topic, followed by the issue you want to discuss. For example, if you wanted to talk about the value of the spiked chaing, your thread subject might read: Spiked Chain - Is it too good?

There are not a lot of topics here that I consider particularly contentious, but here are a few thoughts to kick off the discussion.

- Starting Wealth: Too much, too little, or just right?

- There is talk about adding a halfling weapon to the weapon list, just to round it out for each race. My current favorite is the war sling (see the races playtest), but I am still open on this one. Thoughts.

- Are there any issues with any pieces of equipment (weapons, armors, etc)? Cost, balance, utility?

- Is there a simpler way for keeping track of encumbrance? I have thought about some alternate systems, but I am not convinced they are worth the effort. Do you value encumbrance rules?

would appreciate that you label your threads appropriately and keep things civil. Lets try not to stray all over the book in these discussions.

The previous playtests were very productive and I expect this one to be just as interesting.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

Would this be the best place to discuss special materials, since they're not in the Beta rules? In particular, I'd like to see a discussion on mithril. Would that be better to save for the magic item chapters?

- There is talk about adding a halfling weapon to the weapon list, just to round it out for each race. My current favorite is the war sling (see the races playtest), but I am still open on this one. Thoughts.

War Sling would be alright - much more so if Halflings are getting their thrown weapon bonus back (not trying to bring that up, it just factors in - as all other races' exotics are melee).

- Is there a simpler way for keeping track of encumbrance? I have thought about some alternate systems, but I am not convinced they are worth the effort. Do you value encumbrance rules?

I find Encumbrance works best as a threat, not a policy. The current rules are simple and effective enough to serve as threat, so I'd say leave as is.

Starting Wealth: Too much, too little, or just right?

Seems fine to me. In all the years of playing DnD this is one of those things I don't ever remember hearing or having an argument about.

There is talk about adding a halfling weapon to the weapon list, just to round it out for each race. My current favorite is the war sling (see the races playtest), but I am still open on this one. Thoughts.

Seems fine also.

Are there any issues with any pieces of equipment (weapons, armors, etc)? Cost, balance, utility?

I'd like to see heavily armored characters be able to beat out the no-armor wearing folks when it comes to AC, or at least stay competitive.

I'd love it if shields were more effective.

I'd love to see weapon speed factors return, though I admit I am probably in a very small minority on that one.

Maybe a few more exotic weapons would be nice.

I know this one crosses playtest categories, but I'd like it if the player's could find a rusted old dagger that can be magical. Perhaps magic weapons that gain their powers accidentally as a result of grand events, and not always requiring masterwork items. This isn't a min-max idea so much as a flavor idea. Sometimes I want an item that looks and feels ordinary but yet is perhaps a mighty relic.

Is there a simpler way for keeping track of encumbrance? I have thought about some alternate systems, but I am not convinced they are worth the effort. Do you value encumbrance rules?

I almost never worry about encumbrance unless some player gets silly with it and starts pulling wagons out of their pack. Otherwise, its too much tedious bookkeeping. I let the player's just act within reason and usually that's fine.

- Is there a simpler way for keeping track of encumbrance? I have thought about some alternate systems, but I am not convinced they are worth the effort. Do you value encumbrance rules?

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

I've been using a burden system to simplify encumbrance since 2nd ed. Basically, items have a burden based on their weight and awkwardness (a ladder may not be heavy but it may be awkward to carry around the dungeon...)

Characters can carry up to their STR score worth of burden before being encumbered, and up to twice their STR score before being heavily encumbered.

As a rule of thumb burden is about 1 point for 5 lbs. A light weapon = 1 burden point, 1-handed weapon = 2 points, 2-handed weapon = 3 points. Armor burden = skill check penalty. Coins = 1 point / 100 pieces. Dry ration = 1 / week, water and perishable supplies = 1 / day, etc.

I find it a happy medium between by-the-pound tracking and mere common sense. It worked perfectly for our needs.

'findel

- Starting Wealth: Too much, too little, or just right?

Just right. Feels true to all previous editions, gives people a bit of stuff, with the need to upgrade down the road.

- There is talk about adding a halfling weapon to the weapon list, just to round it out for each race. My current favorite is the war sling (see the races playtest), but I am still open on this one. Thoughts.

Yes, please add a halfling weapon, but not a war sling. Halflings aren't a very warlike race, are they? Call it a halfling whistling sling, or something like that.

- Is there a simpler way for keeping track of encumbrance? I have thought about some alternate systems, but I am not convinced they are worth the effort. Do you value encumbrance rules?

I value encumberance rules, but it would be a lot easier if you got rid of the 1/2 lb and 1/10 lb items ...

I've been using a burden system to simplify encumbrance since 2nd ed. Basically, items have a burden based on their weight and awkwardness (a ladder may not be heavy but it may be awkward to carry around the dungeon...)

Characters can carry up to their STR score worth of burden before being encumbered, and up to twice their STR score before being heavily encumbered.

As a rule of thumb burden is about 1 point for 5 lbs. A light weapon = 1 burden point, 1-handed weapon = 2 points, 2-handed weapon = 3 points. Armor burden = skill check penalty. Coins = 1 point / 100 pieces. Dry ration = 1 / week, water and perishable supplies = 1 / day, etc.

I find it a happy medium between by-the-pound tracking and mere common sense. It worked perfectly for our needs.

'findel

Can you expand on this in another thread? It sounds promising.

Encumbrance has always been a pain AFAIC, but I think that is largely because of the "simulationist" approach. If there was a way to abstract what was carried with a system like this I would love to see it. THings like "a full pack" instead of listing the individual contents would be grand.

Well, a simpler Encumbrance System could be something like this:

The current weight numbers could be divided by 10 (perhaps all items weighing less than 5 lbs could be seen as irrelevant?) and add it all up. If it's more than your STR score, you're at medium load. If it's more than twice your STR score, you're at heavy load.

That's just a quick idea, so I haven't tested if it "holds water" or not. :)

About starting wealth... it seems like a lot, at least for some of the classes (for example, the ranger). Maybe some classes should get less?

I agree that Halflings should have their own special "zip-zinger".

Animated Shield - drop it.
It's possibly the most unbalanced item of all (even worse than mithral armor).
Please just remove it or make it usable only 3 rounds per day and when using an animated shield the character may not benifit from any shield feats.
Otherwise, why would any fighter/barbarian/Paladin/cleric, etc. use one handed weapons?
Using two handed weapons should come at a prise. Now it doesn't as soon as you can buy an Animated Shield. Just buy a Animated Shield and let your cleric cast Magic Vestment.
/Zark

Animated Shield - drop it.

It's possibly the most unbalanced item of all (even worse than mithral armor).
Please just remove it or make it usable only 3 rounds per day and when using an animated shield the character may not benifit from any shield feats.
Otherwise, why would any fighter/barbarian/Paladin/cleric, etc. use one handed weapons?
Using two handed weapons should come at a prise. Now it doesn't as soon as you can buy an Animated Shield. Just buy a Animated Shield and let your cleric cast Magic Vestment.
/Zark

Ah. I got it now. Sorry. I make this a thread.