It would make sense to me if the elven weapon was either a bow or a finesse weapon. However, the elven curveblade we have is neither. It is instead a greatsword with a x3 critical and a minor bonus to disarm. I would suggest either making this weapon 19-20/x2 critical and allowing weapon finesse to work with it, because it would make sense that an elf special weapon would be able to create a balance between power and quickness, or scrap this and make a 1h sword that can be used with finesse, so at least one kind of elven ranger can use the special weapon.

It would make sense to me if the elven weapon was either a bow or a finesse weapon. However, the elven curveblade we have is neither. It is instead a greatsword with a x3 critical and a minor bonus to disarm. I would suggest either making this weapon 19-20/x2 critical and allowing weapon finesse to work with it, because it would make sense that an elf special weapon would be able to create a balance between power and quickness, or scrap this and make a 1h sword that can be used with finesse, so at least one kind of elven ranger can use the special weapon.

I tend to agree, but would make it 1d6 (19-20/x3), since it should be more than a longsword...as a thin weighted blade would cause brutal woulds.

I'd much rather see Pathfinder hijack and adapt the very stylin' Elven Thinblade, from Complete Warrior and Races of the Wild.

One-handed, 1d8/18-20, Finessable, Piercing, allows Weapon Focus (longsword or rapier) to apply to it.

Very cool.

-Matt

The curve blade just sucks as an exotic weapon. Make it 18-20/x2 and we might have something. Plus, it would actually resemble the kukri.

OK, no one will agree with this but if I am going to spend a feat on this, I want to see

Elven Curved Blade- 24G- S 1d10 M 2d6- Crit 19-20X3!- Finnessable, +2 Disarm

Ok I know there are no weapons with 19-20x3 but if I am spending a feat on it there should be!

The exotic weapon should tie in well with the race's favored class. I would suggest something that is TWF friendly for the rangers. I'm not sure what an exotic bow would do, the longbow is already the best ranged weapon in the game.

The exotic weapon should tie in well with the race's favored class. I would suggest something that is TWF friendly for the rangers. I'm not sure what an exotic bow would do, the longbow is already the best ranged weapon in the game.

Granted, the Curved Sword does not fit at all with Rangers.

Honestly what just keeps coming to mind for Elven TWF Rangers is a katana and wakazasi. Thin, light bladed weapons with a curve to enhance slashing, very sharp and strong and fast with perfect balance. The next thing I keep seeing in my mind's eye is they are mithril. Humans can make cheap knock offs from steel, but elves ALWAYS make them from mithril.

make them both slashing weapons, 18-20/x2, +2 to Sunder, used together they give +2 to Disarm and Trip-must be dual wielding but only one needs to make the attack- think of it as a distraction. Always masterwork.

For an elven ranged weapon make it exotic and make a compound bow using pulleys like a modern hunting bow does.

A really good way to create a TWF-friendly weapon is either:

A) Have the weapon count as light or non-light as desired. So one can Power Attack with one of them if he wishes.

or

B) Create two weapons, but allow one Weapon Focus feat to encompass both of them. Kindalike...

Elven Thinblade + Elven Lightblade + Weapon Focus (rapier)

-Matt

A really good way to create a TWF-friendly weapon is either:

A) Have the weapon count as light or non-light as desired. So one can Power Attack with one of them if he wishes.

or

B) Create two weapons, but allow one Weapon Focus feat to encompass both of them. Kindalike...

Elven Thinblade + Elven Lightblade + Weapon Focus (rapier)

-Matt

I like that! Both of them!

Yeah, the CurveBlade is described as being like a Kukri, but mechanically it has nothing in common with a Kukri??? What's up with that? That always irked me and has negated my desire to use it even though I love the Kukri.

In my opinion it should be:
Exotic Weapon: Two-Handed; 1d8; 18-20x2; Finessable.
I don't think that's too great an ask from an Exotic Weapon. Consider that the increase in damage over a Kukri (1d4 to 1d8) is mitigated by the fact that it jumps from Martial to Exotic (thus requiring a Feat) and that it is Two-handed (thus negating a shield or additional weapon). If I dual-wield Kukri my damage potential is increased slightly at the cost of an additional Attack Roll.

In 2nd Ed. the Elven players guide had a nice Elven weapon - it was a longbow that was so well made and sturdy that you could use it as a quarterstaff

I would like to see something along those lines

Count me in as saying that the curve blade doesn't fit for an Elf at all ether.

Yeah, the CurveBlade is described as being like a Kukri, but mechanically it has nothing in common with a Kukri??? What's up with that? That always irked me and has negated my desire to use it even though I love the Kukri.

In my opinion it should be:
Exotic Weapon: Two-Handed; 1d8; 18-20x2; Finessable.
I don't think that's too great an ask from an Exotic Weapon. Consider that the increase in damage over a Kukri (1d4 to 1d8) is mitigated by the fact that it jumps from Martial to Exotic (thus requiring a Feat) and that it is Two-handed (thus negating a shield or additional weapon). If I dual-wield Kukri my damage potential is increased slightly at the cost of an additional Attack Roll.

You didn't give it enough for a feat though.

In 2nd Ed. the Elven players guide had a nice Elven weapon - it was a longbow that was so well made and sturdy that you could use it as a quarterstaff

I would like to see something along those lines

It already exists for 3.5.

You didn't give it enough for a feat though.

I would give it something else like -2 to disarm attempts, and add +1 damage if dex is 12 or higher.

Well in the Beta it has +2 on CMB Disarm Checks so I suppose that could be left in if you think it needs a bit more.

Ok I know there are no weapons with 19-20x3 but if I am spending a feat on it there should be!

I have a falcata that would disagree with you :P

(It's in the Campaign Setting).

Also, I think the orc shotput from a 3.0 source (Sword and Fist? Too lazy to look it up) had it as well.

Yeah, the CurveBlade is described as being like a Kukri, but mechanically it has nothing in common with a Kukri??? What's up with that? That always irked me and has negated my desire to use it even though I love the Kukri.

In my opinion it should be:
Exotic Weapon: Two-Handed; 1d8; 18-20x2; Finessable.
I don't think that's too great an ask from an Exotic Weapon. Consider that the increase in damage over a Kukri (1d4 to 1d8) is mitigated by the fact that it jumps from Martial to Exotic (thus requiring a Feat) and that it is Two-handed (thus negating a shield or additional weapon). If I dual-wield Kukri my damage potential is increased slightly at the cost of an additional Attack Roll.

My only problem with this is that it's a flachion (D&D term) that you can finesse... meaning to use it you spend a feat to use another feat.

I would change it to
Exotic Weapon: Two-Handed; 2d4; 18-20 x3 ; Finessable.

For the exotic weapon feat I don't mind it being better than a martial weapon as you are giving up more than you would on a martial weapon.

Krome wrote:

Ok I know there are no weapons with 19-20x3 but if I am spending a feat on it there should be!

I have a falcata that would disagree with you :P

(It's in the Campaign Setting).

Also, I think the orc shotput from a 3.0 source (Sword and Fist? Too lazy to look it up) had it as well.

Seriously? So there is a precedent for this? Then by golly gee whiz EVERY exotic weapon should have something like that. If I am going to spend a feat on it it should have an expanded crit threat and expanded crit damage.

Ummmm I think I know where this question will go :)

But what do you think about mixed dice for damage. I was thinking 2d4 for the elven weapon didn't sound like enough, but maybe 2d6 is too much. What about d4+d6? Is it really that big a deal to mix dice for damage?

But what do you think about mixed dice for damage. I was thinking 2d4 for the elven weapon didn't sound like enough, but maybe 2d6 is too much. What about d4+d6? Is it really that big a deal to mix dice for damage?

I think it's problematic because of size changes.

Just a question for everyone here.

We are all in agreement here that the exotic weapon of an elf needs to be finesse-able at the least right?

Just a question for everyone here.

We are all in agreement here that the exotic weapon of an elf needs to be finesse-able at the least right?

well, I agree

What about a double weapon? Like a double rapier? 1d6/1d6 (18-20/x2)?
Or an exotic mithril bow that lets you add Dex to damage?

But probably the best choice would be something along the lines of the elven courtier's sword: 1 handed, 1d8 (18-20/x2), finessable, apply weapon focus longsword or weapon focus rapier to it.

How about... ELF ON A STICK? That seems VERY SPECIAL and WILDLY INAPPROPRIATE to me, perhaps even EXOTIC. *grins*

Not sure if that would be Finesse-able or not though, I'll have to do some further play-testing.

Just a question for everyone here.

We are all in agreement here that the exotic weapon of an elf needs to be finesse-able at the least right?

Definately in agreement.

Check out the Dwarven War Axe for a good example of what the elven Racial weapon should look like. It's roughly equal to the equivalent Martial weapon but does one higher damage increment. As I said previous it should be ranger friendly. My thought would be a light blade that does 1d8 damage or possibly with 1d6 damage with expanded critical range (18-20) which would be equivalent to a rapier but able to dual wield.

This way the weapon could be dual wielded and feats such as weapon focus would apply to both weapons.

What about a double weapon? Like a double rapier?

That one wouldn't make sense. It's a piercing weapon. You thrust with it. A double version would be really awkward - you stab with one end, then switch it around by 180° and stab with the other side? Might as well stab with the one side twice....

Or an exotic mithril bow that lets you add Dex to damage?

I think stuff like letting you add dex to damage belongs to feats, or maybe class abilities, not to weapons.

And the weapon type should not depend on the material.

My thought would be a light blade that does 1d8 damage or possibly with 1d6 damage with expanded critical range (18-20) which would be equivalent to a rapier but able to dual wield.

Why limit ourselves to only one? Dwarves get two racial weapons, so I say other races get at least as many.

Have the light 1d6 18-20 one, the one-handed 1d8 18-20 finessable one, and maybe even the two-handed 1d10 18-20 finessable one.

And then throw in a bow for good measure: 1d10 x3.

I agree that the Curveblade may not be the best choice for the elven weapon. What about something like the Yuan-ti Serpent Bow from Secrets of Xen'drik? It is a curved longbow with a blade along the lower edge. You can freely interchange melee and ranged attacks in a single round. Ranged 1d8/x3/80 ft range and melee 2 hand 1d6/19-20/x2.

Very Lord of the Rings. As the orcs charge the elven lines the elves cut them down with arrows, then meet their charge by slashing at them as they approach.

Ryn, who always just liked this weapon

I agree that the Curveblade may not be the best choice for the elven weapon. What about something like the Yuan-ti Serpent Bow from Secrets of Xen'drik? It is a curved longbow with a blade along the lower edge. You can freely interchange melee and ranged attacks in a single round. Ranged 1d8/x3/80 ft range and melee 2 hand 1d6/19-20/x2.

Ryn, who always just liked this weapon

I agree. I love this weapon also! =)

Why limit ourselves to only one? Dwarves get two racial weapons, so I say other races get at least as many.

Dwarves and Half Orcs are Martial classes and it makes more sense they have more racial weapons. Even so I could see 2 elf martial weapons, however the more important point is lost in the elf weapon love frenzy.

The more important point is:
Elf Exotic Weapon should be Ranger friendly.

The longbow is already as good as most exotic weapons and the composite longbow is even better so it makes sense it would be a TWF friendly weapon.

Please keep the 19-20/x3 crit ranges firmly in the realm of delusion - they would break everything (even if the weapon only did 1d3).

However, "Like a Kukri" and 20/x3 don't really mix... but 2d6, 18-20 is rather much too strong.

How about 1d10, 18-20, +2 to disarm. That makes it the highest average damage 18-20 weapon (by .5 vs. Falchion, by 2 vs. scimitar), with a side bonus.

[Hate to even say this but maybe.. *Elf* with Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Elven Curveblade) [not needed to use] can finesse it.]

Easy to fix.
Change the falcata this way : dmg 1d8, crit 18-20x2, can be used with Finesse (as it should be).
And you've got a perfect weapon for elves.

Please keep the 19-20/x3 crit ranges firmly in the realm of delusion

Too late. Falcata from PCCS, one-handed melee weapon

2d6, 18-20 is rather much too strong.

It's par for the course. It's just like the falchion with the damage di(c)e improved by one step.

Plus, the great falchion (from the 3e wotc desert book) already has those stats.

[Hate to even say this but maybe.. *Elf* with Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Elven Curveblade) [not needed to use] can finesse it.]

And I hate you for saying it. ;-P

Actually, it does have something. Of course, the concept would have to be extended to all racial weapons.

Dwarves and Half Orcs are Martial classes and it makes more sense they have more racial weapons.

Sure, dwarves and half-orcs are martial races, but so are elves. In fact, for as long as I can remember, elves got some sort of bonus with swords and bows - be it an attack bonus or free proficency. Dwarves didn't get the same with their axes.

And now that dwarves and half-orcs got their free martial weapons, elves are entitled to their racial exotic weapons.

In fact, since dwarves get too much good stuff, it's actually balanced that other races, including elves, get something extra.

however the more important point is lost in the elf weapon love frenzy.

Why? I've seen weapon love frenzies for other races, too, and no one complained about those.

I'm not sure what an exotic bow would do, the longbow is already the best ranged weapon in the game.

A bow that shoots bears? That are on fire?

Seriously though, a bow that was usable as a quarterstaff or spear without breaking would make an interesting Exotic Weapon.

A bow that could break down into a pair of curved short swords would be even cooler, but probably break suspension of disbelief almost as badly as the spiked chain...

Dennis da Ogre wrote:

I'm not sure what an exotic bow would do, the longbow is already the best ranged weapon in the game.

A bow that shoots bears? That are on fire?

Seriously though, a bow that was usable as a quarterstaff or spear without breaking would make an interesting Exotic Weapon.

A bow that could break down into a pair of curved short swords would be even cooler, but probably break suspension of disbelief almost as badly as the spiked chain...

Read Dragon #349.

The Bow that Doubles as a Quarterstaff & Yuan-ti Serpent Bow are both in there, along with many others (+ Xbows & Ammo).

Make the elven curved blade the only two hand weapon in the game that can be used with finesse and let an elven ranger use it as a martial weapon.

That gives an elven ranger that chooses archery instead of two weapon fighting something special for melee.

Other can spend a feat on it if they are no elves

Make the elven curved blade the only two hand weapon in the game that can be used with finesse and let an elven ranger use it as a martial weapon.

That gives an elven ranger that chooses archery instead of two weapon fighting something special for melee.

Other can spend a feat on it if they are no elves

Giving this one to elves, especially with the power up of the weapon means that you will have to give every race some free martial exotic weapons. this goes too far imho. dwarves get too much aswell.

In general I think the change made in 3.5 to allow martial characters of "insert race" a free exotic weapon proficiency feat (or two or more) with "racial" exotic weapons was a mistake. Just because a certain race invented an exotic weapon doesn't mean that weapon is not "exotic" for that race. Dwarves were known for using the battle axe and warhammers. 3e introduced the dwarven waraxe and urgosh as exotic weapons. 3.5 said any dwarf could use the waraxe and urgosh as a martial weapon - thus granting dwarf warriors 2 exotic weapon feats for free. This came about from 3e houserules that found their way into 3.5 revision. I think it was wrong to do this and would like to see it changed back to the 3e way but that is just my opinion. I also think this would go a long way to curbing some of the "racial" competition that i think i detect regarding racial weapons and "who gets what".

I don't expect much support for this viewpoint but I wanted to put it out there.

Well that viewpoint makes sense too.
Make all exotic weapons, exotic for everyone.

I think the urgosh is a stupid weapon that makes no sense, how do you use it as a double weapon (chopping with one side and spearing with the other in the same movement)

The war axe took away any reason for a dwarf to have a battle axe (so taking away the martial auto for the dwarves I think makes sense) Plus the Dwarf war axe is just ridiculous, its a huge weapon, used by the smallest medium character in the game, in one hand? It's basically just an axe version of the bastard sword.

Personally I would do away with specialized racial weapons altogther The orc double axe is reality is a useless weapon,and why dont half orcs get a freebie on that one? Or orcs for that matter?

The bastard sword is one of those weapons that never get used anymore, because who wants to waste a feat on it?

the dwarf axe will go the sameway if it wasnt a freebie. Its just not special enough.

Instead maybe dwarves should just get weapon focus in the axe (or hammer) of their choice (hand battle or great) and Elves should get weapon focus in the sword or bowof their choice?

Exotic weapons like hand crossbow, spiked chain etc can stay, but get rid of bastard sword, dwarf, elf and orc racial weapons. It owuld clean things up a bit.

If you want a special elf sword, why not say it's special.
Or like there is elven chain, maybe elven longswords (that cost a great deal more just like elven chain) are thin and specialized in their making and allow the use of weapon fineese, but still follow all the other longsowrd rules?
And For dwarves use a special item (like a dwarven battle axe) that allows the axe (or war hammer) to be thrown because of its special making, high craftsmanship and superior balance (of course both weapons are already mastercraft in addition to their racial specific abilities.
Then starting out characters who are elves or dwarves can buy their racial weapon for regular book price (allowing an elfto start with an elf sword and a dwarf to start with the dwarf hammer or axe)
In this manner, anyone could use the special weapon, without a feat, just like they could buy elven chain mail without a special feat.

Effectively with a weapon focus and a special race weapon, the dwarf axe man could start the game with a +2 to attack with that axe,which totally fits the archetype (and same would be true for the elf)

Perhaps even making a racial elf bow that allows dexterity to be used in the same way strength is used with the composite bows. Possibly even allowing an elf composite bow, allowing a strong an dexterous archer to be a force to be recokoned with indeed (Imagine a plus 8 to attack with a bow on a character that had an 18 in both strength and dexterity) obviously this weapon should be quite rare and expensive, possibly a game spoiler.
But the elfbow that just used dex wouldnt be (it would be like weapon finesse for bows)

Actually, I think this should be a Template for weapons -

Elven: Made of lighter materials and improved forging techniques, these weapons are half the weight of their normal counterparts and can be used with Weapon Finesse. If the weapon is already Finessable, it's Crit Range improves one step ( i.e. - 19-20 to 18-20 ). This in turn, makes it an Exotic Weapon, but any Elf with the Weapon Familiarity Feat ( which is in Complete Warrior, I believe )is proficient with all weapons that have this template.

I'm picturing Arwens's Sword or Aragorn's Dagger from the Lord of the Rings. Hadafang, her Sword, was a Elven Long Sword, or possibly an Elven Scimitar. His was an Elven Dagger. This also accounts for those large Elven Falchions their warriors were using. Opinions ?

Giving this one to elves, especially with the power up of the weapon means that you will have to give every race some free martial exotic weapons.

That goes without saying. Weapon familiarity should be available to every single race: Elves get swords and bows, dwarves get axes, half-orcs get some weird orcish stuff, halflings get slings and the like, gnomes get weird stuff, and humans/halfelves get any one.

No reason to say that only one or two races have special weapons training - especially since PF already granted the ability to the other races.

dwarves get too much aswell.

Been saying that for years.

Actually, I think this should be a Template for weapons -

Nah, I think it shouldn't. Some weapons just should not be finessable. Even as elven ones. I just can't see a finessable greatclub or greataxe or greathammer.

This in turn, makes it an Exotic Weapon, but any Elf with the Weapon Familiarity Feat ( which is in Complete Warrior, I believe )is proficient with all weapons that have this template.

The feat is obsolete: Elves (and other races) have weapon familiarity on PF now, without any ridiculous feats like that. (Seriously, they should have added racial weapons for every race and made weapon familiarity general in 3.5, but instead the dwarf fanbois at wizards got the upper hands and twinked the dwarves even more. And tried to disguise it by granting the ability to another race also, one they knew would be gone in a couple of years. THEY KNEW I TELL YOU! IT'S ALL A BIG CONSPIRACY BY THOSE ILLUSTRATED FREE SHRINERS!

)

Granted, the Curved Sword does not fit at all with Rangers.

It does with those who choose the archery style, and want a good weapon for melee.

or possibly with 1d6 damage with expanded critical range (18-20) which would be equivalent to a rapier but able to dual wield.

This way the weapon could be dual wielded and feats such as weapon focus would apply to both weapons.

That's basically an Elven Lightblade.

I like the elven blades in Complete Warrior.
They could do just fine.