BARBARIAN: Overall, we liked the changes to the Barbarian class. The rage powers have added options and customization to the character class, and give incentive to have players continue in the base class.

One option that was suggested on the general forums, that I think bears some consideration, is the idea of replacing the mechanic of a pool of rage points with the idea that rage abilities cost the barbarian nonlethal hit points to power the effects. Something worth considering.

I still have problems with the Rage Point mechanic. It's not the use so much as the concept. While I like the concept of Rage powers, I still don't understand why Rage had to be changed from a "x/day" to "rage points." Backwards compatibility alone makes this something that needs reviewing.

I still have problems with the Rage Point mechanic. It's not the use so much as the concept. While I like the concept of Rage powers, I still don't understand why Rage had to be changed from a "x/day" to "rage points." Backwards compatibility alone makes this something that needs reviewing.

I'm in 1000% agreement with this. What really killed the rage point concept for me is creating and running NPCs---which under the rage point system became a unnecessary chore.

I don't think the point systems are compatible with the spirit of the PFRPG/D&D and hope to see them removed from the final product.

As a person who is behind the screen as a GM more often then not, I have to say that keeping track of Rage points for a hoard of Orcs with levels of Barbarian can be a nightmare.

We tried running a series of adventures based on R. A. Salvatore's Hunter's Blades Trilogy, were mpost of the NPC monsters are orcs with levels of Barbarian or Fighter. Fighter conversion ran pretty smooth (even with house ruling base 4 + Int skill points and adding Sense Motive and Perception to thier skill lists). The barbarian's involved a LOT of conversion; picking general powers, generic amounts of Rage points, how they would be spent, who had some left, how long they could still rage... you get the point.

I ran the second installment using a "X/day" formula. It ran much faster. And my player's started using for easy of play.

I'm not saying that the Rage point system is bad... just not my preference (this goes for the Monk's Ki pool as well). And I think that it ignores backward compatibility a little too much. Adding is easier than subtracting, but adding too much is perhaps overkill. I would not mind seeing a sidebar conversion for a point system from "x/day" mechanic. Something universal that could also be applied to a Paladin's ability to smite as well.

Here is the "X/day" version of Rage and Rage pwoers I used for the later Hunter's Blade adventures.

Rage
Can be used once per day - additional times per day gained every time a Rage power is learned (This equals an additional time at 2nd level and every other level after). Rage lasts 3 + base CON modifier rounds. Fatigue lasts an equal amount of rounds as rage.

Rage Powers
Rage points from Alpha = minimuml level for gaining rage powers (i.e. a cost of 6 Rage points means 6th level is the minimum level to take this Rage power). Some Rage powers can be taken multiple times for additional effect (i.e. Increased Damage Reduction and Swift Foot).

Rage Powers are activated as a swift action. A Rage power can only be activated once per encounter. If a Rage power is used, fatigue lasts twice the amount of time as rage.

I realize that this is less than perfect as a conversion, but it worked in our playtest through both Beta ad Alpha.

I like rage points alot. I just don't see the nightmare of using them . I ran 20 npc barbarians. I used a scrap piece of paper and had not a single issue of being confused and such. I hate x/day powers and wish them all dead.

Also I don't care much for the ideal of taking non leathel damage that just to me would have been harder to keep up with. I t sounds cool and all but it would just be hell with 15 to 20 npc's.

From a players stand point as well the one I did get to run was just fun I loved the fact I had control over my own powers I got to choose if i wanted to go all or nothing I got to choose if I raged 2 rounds or all 6 or what ever. Beautiful mechanic I wish paladin smite worked this way as well.

Arnim Thayer wrote:

I still have problems with the Rage Point mechanic. It's not the use so much as the concept. While I like the concept of Rage powers, I still don't understand why Rage had to be changed from a "x/day" to "rage points." Backwards compatibility alone makes this something that needs reviewing.

I'm in 1000% agreement with this. What really killed the rage point concept for me is creating and running NPCs---which under the rage point system became a unnecessary chore.

I don't think the point systems are compatible with the spirit of the PFRPG/D&D and hope to see them removed from the final product.

As a thought, you could just use them as x/day. You just need to calculate how many times you can do rage a day with the rage points you have. This is very simple math.

I agree that the Rage Powers have added much needed flare to the Barbarian.

I beleive any idea that ties Raging to Non-lethal damage is a very bad, a Barbarian becoming Fatigued or even Exhausted after raging is playable, but Raging yourself in unconsciousness is too much of a handicap.

The Rage Point Mechanic does become cumberosme especially for NPCs, I quickly found myself per-calculating how long Raging would last just using the simplist option, which worked fine but does take the surprise out of the NPC tactics. Maybe the proposed simplier system or one like it could be better.

As a thought, you could just use them as x/day. You just need to calculate how many times you can do rage a day with the rage points you have. This is very simple math.

It's the additional rage powers and their costs that make NPCs unnecessarily complex. Calculating points for maintaining rage and use of powers when nothing else in the core rules works on points seems to go way beyond the mandate of the PFRPG.

I can see going all points (for everything from spellcasting to rage powers) and I can see going all per day (spell slots, per day abilities) but mixing the two is an added complexity to the game where none needed to be introduced.

I agree that it can be a burden trying to accurately track rage points on NPCs. I've developed a simpler way to track rage powers for NPCs in my games (NPC barbarians are always raging and can use 1 rage power per encounter per con bonus point they have).

If there were a simpler way to track rage and rage powers for PCs I would be fine with it. I don't find it a huge burden for a player though so I would also be quite happy if it stays the same as it is in the beta.

Using NPC Barbarians of a single type (i.e. mass of orcs) is actually relatively simple if you let it be.

Assume they all use the maximum "rage" They can use. Then pick 2 abilities that they will use all the time or switch to the other if that fails.

since most mobs die within 3-4 rounds of battle you don't NEED to choose all 64 million rage combinations. You just need 2-3 so they can have a small option if needed.

You could even go so far as to make a chart displaying the barbarian from level 2 to 20 listing 2-4 powers they would have, total, at that level for your 'mooks' to choose from. (much in the same way that you might have a pre-fab spell book for random spell casters and such rather than having to spend a year building each one from scratch).

Certainly you can build each mook with the level of detail that PC's do with their characters but given their respective life expectancy you generally end up wasting alot of time without getting much in return.

-S

Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:

As a thought, you could just use them as x/day. You just need to calculate how many times you can do rage a day with the rage points you have. This is very simple math.

It's the additional rage powers and their costs that make NPCs unnecessarily complex. Calculating points for maintaining rage and use of powers when nothing else in the core rules works on points seems to go way beyond the mandate of the PFRPG.

I can see going all points (for everything from spellcasting to rage powers) and I can see going all per day (spell slots, per day abilities) but mixing the two is an added complexity to the game where none needed to be introduced.

I think your missing my comment's point. Don't use the other options, they are not forcing you to. Just figure out their x/rounds/day equivalent and leave it at that. It is really basic math.

Using NPC Barbarians of a single type (i.e. mass of orcs) is actually relatively simple if you let it be.

Assume they all use the maximum "rage" They can use. Then pick 2 abilities that they will use all the time or switch to the other if that fails.

since most mobs die within 3-4 rounds of battle you don't NEED to choose all 64 million rage combinations. You just need 2-3 so they can have a small option if needed.

You could even go so far as to make a chart displaying the barbarian from level 2 to 20 listing 2-4 powers they would have, total, at that level for your 'mooks' to choose from. (much in the same way that you might have a pre-fab spell book for random spell casters and such rather than having to spend a year building each one from scratch).

Certainly you can build each mook with the level of detail that PC's do with their characters but given their respective life expectancy you generally end up wasting alot of time without getting much in return.

-S

A chart in the section on NPCs would make me happy but I would expect it to be a well constructed and well thought out chart, not at all like NPC stuff is usually presented(by most game companies anyway).

I love the rage points -but I'm a Werewolf the Apocalypse fan-.

I ran a battle with six orc barbarians with rage points and everything went okay for me. While 6 is not 20, I don't think the rage points is really that much a problem. For me, for MY personal view of things, it should stay.

Now, I understand that MY likes aren't supposed to be EVERYONE'S likes. I found it was easy and nice to use the rage points, but I can see many DMs having headaches with it mainly because of a lazy brain -and they would be TOTALLY right in having their headaches, after all DMs already have much work at the gaming table.

So, in that case, while I like it, I think it would be easier to convert to some kind of "burn one of your uses of rage this day to activate this ability- or the like.

I enjoy rage points and wish to see them kept in the game. I enjoy the flexibility and customization and don't find the bookkeeping too daunting.

Like Sir Hexen says,
just choose an average encounter length (in rounds), divide the Total Rage Points by that, and VOILA you have # Rages/ day.
If you prefer, after you choose an average # of Rounds, add on a Rage Power or two, and divide by that instead, same thing. You can use this for your PC if you want, even if your DM is using Rage Points: it's still using Rage Points, just "packaged" nicely.

For the most part, straight Rage is much more efficient than most Powers (Animal Fury is a cheap free attack), so you don't even NEED to bother using Rage Powers unless you want to have a more specific challenge. And if you have a more specific idea, then it's easy to plan for it, just figure so many uses of each power. For the most part, the Barbarian's Rage Points are MUCH more than necessary for any single encounter, which is all you need to track for mooks. I figure it's VERY rare for NPC Barbarian (opponents) to run out of Rage before they're killed.

How many of those NPC Barbarians are expected to survive the fight and get into another fight later that day?

If answer is > 0 then you may need to keep track.

Are any that are NOT surviving the fight likely to run out of points during the fight?

If answer is YES then you may need to keep track.

If they are not going to survive and are not going to live long enough to use all their points why keep track?

There is no point to keeping track of how many rage (or any other points) NPCs who aren't expected to live to see the end of 1 fight have left when they die. The only time it may become necessary is if there is a real risk of them running out of points before they die.

and if part of the orc war-band ends up escaping to ambush the PCs half a mile down the mountain pass... well, IMPROVISE, and say they spent half their Rage Points, or whatever... your PLAYERS won't really notice!

Some of the Rage Powers could be made into feats that are "always on" or "at will" while raging. That would solve some of the headache for those that are having such an issue.

Some of the Rage Powers could be made into feats that are "always on" or "at will" while raging.

Or that you can activate as swift actions when raging at no points cost. Any of that would be an improvement over, "Wait, now how many points does that one cost... No, I don't think Krusk wants to spend that many points so early in the adventure..."

Obviously, rage points are far from the perfect mechanic. As I said, a side bar with an alternate mechanic would put this issue to rest.

A look through the threads today lead me to this link.

I think some valid points are presented here as well. Heck, even one of those in favor of rage points understands the potential problem. Please, Paizo, take a look at this mechanic again.

Arnim Thayer wrote:

I still have problems with the Rage Point mechanic. It's not the use so much as the concept. While I like the concept of Rage powers, I still don't understand why Rage had to be changed from a "x/day" to "rage points." Backwards compatibility alone makes this something that needs reviewing.

I'm in 1000% agreement with this. What really killed the rage point concept for me is creating and running NPCs---which under the rage point system became a unnecessary chore.

I don't think the point systems are compatible with the spirit of the PFRPG/D&D and hope to see them removed from the final product.

On the contrary, I think they're as simple to keep track of (for individual NPCs -- not orc barbarian hordes, of course) than HPs. Against several barbarian NPCs, you could just decide that they can use one Rage Power per round for the duration of the encounter... it's not that I often keep track of NPC spell slots or memorized spells, either, because the same problem (even multiplied -- *try* to keep track of who has cast what, and how many slots/spells everyone has left) exists with an encounter which involves several NPC/monster spellcasters (and if they are of different levels... sheesh!).

I like rage points alot. I just don't see the nightmare of using them . Also I don't care much for the ideal of taking non leathel damage that just to me would have been harder to keep up with. I t sounds cool and all but it would just be hell with 15 to 20 npc's. From a players stand point as well the one I did get to run was just fun I loved the fact I had control over my own powers I got to choose if i wanted to go all or nothing I got to choose if I raged 2 rounds or all 6 or what ever. Beautiful mechanic I wish paladin smite worked this way as well.

This matches my impressions as well. I don't think of them as "points," though, I think of them as rounds. You had to track the duration in rounds before; you still do now. If the barbarian uses a power, mark off a few extra rounds.

I am interested in seeing Jason's interpretation of how Rage and Rage Powers would work as "option 2a" (see this link here).

A test run on this could possibly sway me away from the "x/day" mechanic completely.

As a firm advocate of "x/day" because of backwards compatibility, ease of play, minimal bookkeping, etc., I am itrigued by the idea that a better version of the Rage Point mechanic might exist.

Up to now, it has been an ongoing argument between rage points or "X/day", with battle lines being drawn and verbal barbs. Now Jason has hinted that it might not be a completely bipartisan and/or system choice at all. Or, to quote Yoda, "There is another."