If we move concentration off of the (x)craft skill, and on to a caster level check what do I do if I want to improve the value? I used to have skill focus, and defensive caster feats to buff my rolls, they weren't required, but they were a choice for people who knew they were going to be making a lot of rolls, what now?

You still have the combat casting feat. I don't think anything else is needed. If it is felt there must be more, just make an improved version of the feat. The feat options are better anyway, because prereqs limit when a character can obtain them. Skill focus and combat casting currently can be got at 1st level, making defensive casting powerful right from the get-go.

Also, if some spells were made to be intended to circumvent casting defensively and not draw AoOs, then it gives another option (again, spells such as burning hands, chill touch...)... it opens up choice.

You know... we could avoid all those problems by simply keeping Concentration as a separate skill like it was in 3.5E. Sometimes more is more and it is more compatible to boot.

It is not that I am particularly in love with the Concentration skill, but if change is going to cause this many issues, why not just stick to the tried and true method?

I have continued to push for Concentration to be re-separated.

Moreover, I have seen wisdom in compining Knowledge (arcana) and Spellcraft. If Paizo's looking at condensing certain skills, this latter move makes more sense to me.

Roman wrote:

You know... we could avoid all those problems by simply keeping Concentration as a separate skill like it was in 3.5E. Sometimes more is more and it is more compatible to boot.

It is not that I am particularly in love with the Concentration skill, but if change is going to cause this many issues, why not just stick to the tried and true method?

I have continued to push for Concentration to be re-separated.

Moreover, I have seen wisdom in compining Knowledge (arcana) and Spellcraft. If Paizo's looking at condensing certain skills, this latter move makes more sense to me.

I think I have to agree with that, although it makes sense that arcane casters should use Knowledge (arcana) and Divine spell casters Knowledge (religion) all though it is unclear to me that druids should use either, although knowledge (nature) doesn't make sense either.

Expanding upon my recent posts...

Isn't it odd that casters get a skill that improves their capabilities in combat and melees do not? In fact, it can be argued they get two (spellcraft and fly). The only other class that gets meaningful improvement capability in combat through skills is the rogue with the bluff skill for sneak attacks. (at least that makes sense... they're skill mongers) I guess you could say the Ride skill helps as well, but how often does that really come into play?

I'd rather see the rules for casting in combat be put where it belongs: in the combat rules. Looking at the chart on p.72, everything starting with Casting Defensively on down should be on a chart in the Combat section. The Spellcraft skill is well enough with the top 3 options on that chart.

Basing the checks for casting defensively off of Caster level is essentially the same as a concentration check, except for the fact that it can't go beyond your level (where it really breaks down in balance). Combat casting, (and introducing Improved Combat casting) can give you an edge in this department should you desire one. Melees have to use precious feats to be more effective in combat and have to make hard choices. Spell casters get to use skill points and feats? There is an inequity here.

Roman wrote:

You know... we could avoid all those problems by simply keeping Concentration as a separate skill like it was in 3.5E. Sometimes more is more and it is more compatible to boot.

It is not that I am particularly in love with the Concentration skill, but if change is going to cause this many issues, why not just stick to the tried and true method?

I have continued to push for Concentration to be re-separated.

Moreover, I have seen wisdom in compining Knowledge (arcana) and Spellcraft. If Paizo's looking at condensing certain skills, this latter move makes more sense to me.

As have I. I like my PCs having incentive to invest ranks in knowledge skills, and spellcraft is just a strange little escapee from actual knowledge ranks as it is. The rolling of Concentration into Spellcraft was just to give Spellcraft some sliver of merit, and it was a poor idea. In my current house-rules for skills, I've liberated Concentration (and rolled Autohypnosis minus memorizing into it) and put Spellcraft/Psicraft into the knowledges. To identify a divine spell, you need to make a Knowledge (Religion) check. To identify an arcane spell, you make a Knowledge (Arcana) check, and to identify a psionic power, you make a knowledge (psionics) check. It's not like clerics don't have access to Arcana as a class skill, and it makes sense that wizards (book worms, all) would perhaps be the best at identifying spells from any caster. The practical/theoretical divide of Spellcraft/Knowledges just does not hold up.

Reinstating Concentration also allows supplementary rule sets (psionics, tome of battle, etc) to continue to function without having to create additional skills or hammer them around to fit an inelegant solution, which helps preserve backwards compatibility. This is a major sticking point for me - Concentration is a useful skill, and a key player in both of my favorite rule additions (XPH and ToB), and to have to go around rewriting them wholesale for little benefit just does not work for me. And I know I'm not alone in this.

While the caster level idea could be good, I don't like the idea that each spellcaster use its best ability modifier (ie int, cha or wis).
Casting a spell works the same for all classes. Why should they use a different ability for this ? Just because it favors them ?
Really not my taste. Use CON, I think it's the best for concentration.

While the caster level idea could be good, I don't like the idea that each spellcaster use its best ability modifier (ie int, cha or wis). Casting a spell works the same for all classes. Why should they use a different ability for this ? Just because it favors them ?

Really not my taste. Use CON, I think it's the best for concentration.

Casting a spell doesn't work the same for all classes. When there's skill -- or maybe raw power -- involved, casters use their spellcasting attribute. It's even called a "spellcasting attribute." Why wouldn't it control skill when trying to cast a spell under trying circumstances?

On the other hand, you could reasonably just low the base DC to 10 + spell level and make it a normal caster level check. I think that would work fine, the only downside being that it isn't backwards-compatible. But if Jason is considering changing the DC anyway -- to double the spell's level in the DC -- that's apparently not much of a concern.

-- Jeff

Most of the relevant stuff has been stated above - I 'd just like to add that our group immediately opted for reinstating "concentration" as a skill after one preliminary testing session.

Mostly due to the fact that we use the BoNS, but also simply becuase emloying an "experience and knowledge" skill like spellcraft for shutting out distractions (noises, pain, physical conditions) seems rather ludicruous

In fact, if a stream-lining of skills was the intention of Paizo with the mergeing of skill,s they should rather have merged spellcraft into the respective Knowledge skills as was already proposed above.

I do consider Knowledge (nature) to actually be pretty nifty skill for recognising the precise effects of druidic magic, since that is typically a manipulation of regular, naturally occuring phenomena into atypical effects..... anyone with a good knowledge of the natural world and environment should be much more capable of noticing "Brambles" or "Insect Swarm".

Just my 2 cents, but basically abolishing concentratin is the biggest MISS in the Beta rules as is.

selios wrote:

While the caster level idea could be good, I don't like the idea that each spellcaster use its best ability modifier (ie int, cha or wis). Casting a spell works the same for all classes. Why should they use a different ability for this ? Just because it favors them ?

Really not my taste. Use CON, I think it's the best for concentration.

Casting a spell doesn't work the same for all classes. When there's skill -- or maybe raw power -- involved, casters use their spellcasting attribute. It's even called a "spellcasting attribute." Why wouldn't it control skill when trying to cast a spell under trying circumstances?

And why it should be ?

While the caster level idea could be good, I don't like the idea that each spellcaster use its best ability modifier (ie int, cha or wis).

Casting a spell works the same for all classes. Why should they use a different ability for this ? Just because it favors them ?
Really not my taste. Use CON, I think it's the best for concentration.

I also think it is a good idea to use CON instead of favored ability. One, it removes a needless variable. Two, in my experience CON is a weak stat, and spellcasters should have some small encouragement beyond HP to invest in it.

That said, I also find the idea of using a Fortitude save appealing... a Fighter/Wizard SHOULD be better at spellcasting in close combat.