Me and my gaming group have been playtesting alpha and now beta in three separate games (The beta has only been in effect for two game sessions) I feel with confidence that i can say that a tweak needs to be done with Acrobatics.

In games where just acrobatics was in use (plus climb, swim, fly ) some characters lost alot of there mobility ( fighters cant jump over pits, neither can rangers) and some characters gained abilities that really didnt make much sense ( why is the barbarian as good of a tightrope walker as the cat-burglar rogue?) In the game sessions with this rule in effect I couldnt get my players to agree with the mechanics, they would gripe about the illogic of the physical skills (WTF? Barbarians are barrelrolling under the halflings legs????) and it was brought up that it was strange that acrobatics was three skills but swimmming, flying, and climbing were all individual skills. ( wouldnt flying be an aerial ACROBATICS check?)

I then made a house rule to let pathfinder be more backwards compatible. I created the Athletics skill, made it Strength based, and made it climb and jump (not alot of times will something be a poor jumper but excellent climber and visa versa.)

Acrobatics was playtested as the Dexterity side of Athletics (the finesse in which you jumped, the precision of your movements) I had it incorporate balance, tumble and fly (if you can fly)

I have played with these changes for several months now (straight into beta) and havent seen much in the form of problems with it.

(I am well aware that I can just house rule it in my game, I just thought it was a houserule that made alot of sense and wasnt too much of a change)

I've been thinking this is one of the things from 4e Pathfinder should be emulating. Acrobatics as Balance/Escape Artist/Tumble, and Athletics as Climb/Jump/Swim. Keeps the Dex-type uses and the Str-type uses as separate skills altogether.

Agree.

On the topic of skills combos, I would also like to see Knowledge (local) and Gather Information rolled together. Their function and usage is far too similar to justify them as separate skills, each of which is (theoretically) the equal of, say, Perception.

mmm actually before 4E Monte Cook's World of Darkness was laready using Athletcs with Climb and Jump as one skill... (or at leas as a group theme).
While i like the idea of Climb, Jump and Swim tossed into one skill it does soundsquitepowerful and are very unrelated disciplines

while balance, tumble and jump are easier to see toguether (hey a Barbarian can walk in very narrow surfaces... fallen trees over a river, a narrow step over a abyss; and about the halfling HE does not need to pass below the halfling elgs, in the case of the halfling the barbarian will "fly" over teh halfling... just see how things would work with logic and not juxtapox the usual just because you can't see more options)

i would go for Atletics opnly with Clim nad Jump and Acrobatics with Tumble and Balance

Fly is definitively a different skill unrelated to anyone of the others

Agree.

On the topic of skills combos, I would also like to see Knowledge (local) and Gather Information rolled together. Their function and usage is far too similar to justify them as separate skills, each of which is (theoretically) the equal of, say, Perception.

i like Gather information in Dyplomacy

Gahter information IS NOT research, gather information is about talking to people, so Dyplomacy makes sence

also you should be able to egt information even in places you don't know, remember all knowledge can be usedunskileld... gather information can (anyone can ask soemthing in a bar, but you don't know something if you never lived there already)

I agree with the OP. There should be two skills: a Str-based physical skill and a Dex-based physical skill.

Good suggestion in the OP. Someone be sure to bring it up once they start a forum for the Skills chapter.

I then made a house rule to let pathfinder be more backwards compatible. I created the Athletics skill, made it Strength based, and made it climb and jump (not alot of times will something be a poor jumper but excellent climber and visa versa.)

We're doing something similar in our campaign, though 'Athletics' also incorporates swim. It's working beautifully for us, so I'd add to the chorus recommending this change to the core rules. If something is so frequently house-ruled, it would make sense to give serious consideration to designing it into the game.

Another vote for this, I have the same exact house rule. Keeping Acrobatics all Dex-based and making Athletics the Str-based one makes a nice kind of sense.

I also have Athletics being Climb/Jump/Swim. A three-for seemed a bit powerful, but Swim is used so rarely for us it's more like... 2.5.

The rogues got so many "freebies" too, it's nice for skill-starved fighters to get a little streamlining in their favor.

+1 on this idea. I've been using it for a month or more in weekly playtest.

I agree with the OP. There should be two skills: a Str-based physical skill and a Dex-based physical skill.

I would generally agree, but how would Constitution (endurance) based skills fit into such a structure?

I've been thinking this is one of the things from 4e Pathfinder should be emulating. Acrobatics as Balance/Escape Artist/Tumble, and Athletics as Climb/Jump/Swim. Keeps the Dex-type uses and the Str-type uses as separate skills altogether.

I've been using this acrobatics and athletics for a while and works perfectly for me. And the idea for skills on endurance sounds good, but can't think of many. Run sounds good and could develop into a rule were not everybody is as fast when a good'ol chase starts.

Gotham Gamemaster wrote:

I agree with the OP. There should be two skills: a Str-based physical skill and a Dex-based physical skill.

I would generally agree, but how would Constitution (endurance) based skills fit into such a structure?

As a Fort save.

You need a skill-check to jump across the alley or dive into the water or roll through the melee. But Endurance based things would be less skill-based and more ability based.

...I don't think I'm explaining very well. But it makes sense in my head anyway!! ~grin~

Kvantum wrote:
I've been thinking this is one of the things from 4e Pathfinder should be emulating. Acrobatics as Balance/Escape Artist/Tumble, and Athletics as Climb/Jump/Swim. Keeps the Dex-type uses and the Str-type uses as separate skills altogether.

I agree with this one. Its just too much for one skill. I think perception should be two separate skills also. One for spot/search and one for Listen/touch/tast ect...

Well, thanks for the input! I see that others have stumbled on to this concept. As for Constitution, I would see no problem with a rule that had you use the lower of your CON or STR/DEX when fatigued or exhausted. It wont come up that often, but still gives some love to CON (keeping it it FORT saves is also a fine idea)

Side note: swimming may be a CON based Skill, I really wish there was at least ONE CON skill

I agree that there should be separate skill lists for STR and DEX. As for CON, I think Swim and a new Run skill could easily be grouped together since they are both usually considered "endurance" sports.

Of course, since we are talking about skill consolidation, I have to push for the consolidation of Spellcraft with Knowledge (Arcana), with Concentration separated out again :)

A run skill would be fantastic, it would solve the atrocity that is d20 chase scene (alright, the bad guy double moves and disappears around the corner. your PCs chasing after, okay you double move and appear right behind him, On his turn, with a burst of speed, the enemy runs around a corner. when your turn comes around you see around the corner he went there is two other corners and plenty of hiding places. what? you should have been five feet behind him the whole time and he couldnt possible have hid from you? sorry, the way movement works we all take our turns moving.)

with a run skill, a withdraw from combat (or full run drawing attacks of opportunity ) would automatically trigger a contested run check. every five point higher equals five feet more added to your move. If a pursuer closes the distance or passes, they get a free CMB check (that doesnt provoke an attack of opportunity) to grapple the target (difficulty would be 15+ CMB or 10 + escape artist) maybe three successful run checks made by the target lets them shake there tail/tails.

I have seen some rules for chases, but never one that was placed in the main book. Run skill or not, i would greatly appreciate an alternative to the jerky chase mechanics that are used by default

....maybe this is just a use of athletics/ acrobatics, does anyone else have a problem with the chase mechanics?

OH sorry, this thread was neither ability scores nor races, I am on the wrong design part of the game. I apologize for my ingorance