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Knight Errant Jr.
If yo don't mind me asking how would you have written the fluff for the section on no multiclassing.
I'll have to cogitate on this a bit. As I said, I really liked the product, so I don't think it was a horrible choice, and I actually like that you at least gave a reason for "no multiclassing." I'll get back to you once something springs to mind.
I think the best way that I can relate this is to cite my own aversion to absolutes. I really like the idea that you can't multiclass, I like that you are "locked on course," and I like that you could just blow up from not being able to control your power . . . however, I think its just the minor quibble of saying every Jotun lasts exactly one week before they die is what didn't quite site just right.
Its probably just my wishy washy-ness showing through, or just my annoyance with things like Prestige Classes that say there are only X number in the world, but I probably would have gone with "almost no Jotun can bend their mind away from the contemplation of the bloodline and its associated element long enough to learn the class skills of a class unrelated to their heritage. The few that have have almost always died, consumed by the unchecked energies of their neglected bloodlines."
I have a weird image of someone trying to game the system by running a Jotun in some Undermountain/Dragon's Delve/Castle Greyhawk style setting where they might gain a few levels in that week before they go boom, or even metagaming the end of the campaign to throw a few class levels on at the end (hm . . . actually, that last option is kind of interesting for a "I'm going to sacrifice myself to finish this quest ending).
Long winded cogitating aside, I'm curious. I like how this turned out, but I'm wondering, did you ever think that there might be, say, plateaus where you could "leave the path" and not be able to return.
For example, say, at 10th or 16th level. I'm not saying it should or shouldn't work that way, its just something I started wondering about as I was reading through this.
I guess I could have also through it 2d6 days (secret roll by GM).
Yes someone trying it for those seven days was why it was in there.
Yes if there had been more time to playtest and know the outcomes of multiclassing I would have allowed it, my biggest concern was full base attack bonus classes more than anything else.
From a simulationists point of view I would have liked to creat paths forr characters be able to multiclass when they finished an aspect of a particular giant,
Like once you gain Rend you may now advance as a ranger (Troll Hunter!)
Or once you have all the requirements of a fronst giant you can enter the Runecaster prestige class or Runeblade base class.
Yet 30 days is not enough time, perhaps when we do a Questhaven Patronage Project we will get more time to play-test the really crazy ideas.
Dark_Mistress
(Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber)
Dark_Mistress
(Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber)
Actionable Feedback is something that is always counts, it helps us improve an update the product (one of the real benfits of PDF).
I want to thank Dark Mistress for supporting us by taking the time to do such an in depth and detailed review of our product.
We have 3 other racial books that do allow you to multiclass all you like Ironborn of Questhaven, Wyrd of Questhaven, and Restless Souls (though this is more a template than a race).
I am working on a multiclassing option that allows it upon particular paths for example when you have all the abilites of a troll you could multiclass as a ranger (Troll Hunter) or when you have all the abilities of a stone giant you can multiclass as a earth mage. etc. There was just not enough time to play-test it to where I was comfortable, but I should have included those comments in a side bar as a guideline for GMs who wanted to go that direction.
It is a PDF though so with two big chunks of feedback that say MULTICLASSING! Its something for an update!
A good review is all the support I could hope for, and you can always buy one of our other products that don't have a review already if you have an overwhelming desire to give me money :)
Thanks again
Steve Russell,
Rite Publishing
Dark_Mistress
(Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber)
Well multi-classing isn't a big deal for me. But I do think for some people it will be a big deal. I am sure some will want to play a giant druid or something. You are welcome for the review and thanks for the product. As i said normally it is not something I would have bought but I am now glad I have it. I try to give detailed reviews as I feel that really helps other decided if they want to buy it or not and thats the point of a review after all.
Your production is very nice, i think these are the pretties 3pp books i have seen so far. I will be looking at a few of your other books now, the 101 feats right now interest me the most but will see. Glad you liked the review. I posted up reviews here, at ENWorld, Drivethru and Necromancer games, just as a FYI incase you want to go make comments.
Dark_Mistress
(Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber)
Well you can play a Jotun gaint druid, you just can't play a Jotun giant Paragon Druid :)
But your right.
Steve.
Yeah I have been thinking about that. How about a group of feats that mimic some of the paragon class abilities and such that any Jotun giant can take if they took another class? That might be a way to kind multiclass and stay balanced. Anyways just a thought.
For folks interested in playtesting your own giant, I have completed adding the OGC from this product into my Excel-based character sheet (latest version is always linked in my profile). This includes the Jotunnar race, the Jotun Paragon class, and various feats. If anyone should happen upon errors, please let me know (my standing discussion thread is also linked in my profile).
While working all the mechanics into place, I did notice a few things as comments/questions:
- The slam attack damage obviously scales at the same levels as the Size Increase class ability. Is it intended that the jotun deal this damage regardless of size (this is how I have it for now), or is the damage actually tied to size? I can see how having a Medium sized "giant" dealing massive damage due to their lineage works from a flavor perspective, just want to make sure I've coded it correctly.
- When slam damage is increased with Improved Natural Attack, is it intended to increase the damage of all elemental powers tied to slam (Trample, Rend, Pound, etc.) as well?
- For Rock Throwing, same questions above--does Improved Natural Attack (slam) increase the damage and is damage tied to the size of the rock?
- For Aspect of Earth, the taiga giant is mentioned at first, but then is omitted from follow-on sentences in Benefits.
- The Control Weather elemental power has the Levitate description it seems--I assumed it should be 1/day.
- Elemental Aura lists both "number of rounds equal to your jotun paragon class level" and "number of times per day equal to 3 + your Constitution modifier" with regard to usage. I interpreted this as "you can use the power X times per day, and each usage lasts Y rounds. Can this aura be turned off early? It also seems odd that it only affects non-allies.
- Elemental Blast mixes terms for "burst" and "spread" in the description. It seems like this should simply be a burst, as it would be odd for a "blast of fire" to go around corners and such like a spread.
- Rend states "Your slam attacks become claw attacks, if you hit with both claw attacks." does that mean the attacks are only claw attacks if both hit, or is that sentence fragment after the comma supposed to be deleted? If it is deleted and the slam becomes claws, does this impact elemental powers other than Grab that also tie damage to slam?
- For Terrain Mastery, can it be selected multiple times to add terrain types?
Beyond these questions, I wanted to note that this is a nice product--it does a very good job of adding product identity material that makes the purchase worthwhile and at the same time includes a nice spread of OGC for the gaming community to utilize.
The slam attack damage obviously scales at the same levels as the Size Increase class ability. Is it intended that the jotun deal this damage regardless of size (this is how I have it for now), or is the damage actually tied to size? I can see how having a Medium sized "giant" dealing massive damage due to their lineage works from a flavor perspective, just want to make sure I've coded it correctly.
When slam damage is increased with Improved Natural Attack, is it intended to increase the damage of all elemental powers tied to slam (Trample, Rend, Pound, etc.) as well?
No, it would only increase his damage dealt by the slam attack, the damage listed in the chart stays the same.
For Rock Throwing, same questions above--does Improved Natural Attack (slam) increase the damage and is damage tied to the size of the rock?
No, it would only increase his damage dealt by the slam attack, the damage listed in the chart stays the same.
This is to avoid the silly Hulking Hurler issue of carrying around a +1 flaming returning depleted uranium boulder
For Aspect of Earth, the taiga giant is mentioned at first, but then is omitted from follow-on sentences in Benefits.
Taiga Giant was a last minute add on request from a playtester, and the extra abilities for taiga giants, so its my fault if its missing from the follow-on sentences it should have been in there.
The Control Weather elemental power has the Levitate description it seems--I assumed it should be 1/day.
Its a copy paste error should have been control weather rather than levitate.
Elemental Aura lists both "number of rounds equal to your jotun paragon class level" and "number of times per day equal to 3 + your Constitution modifier" with regard to usage. I interpreted this as "you can use the power X times per day, and each usage lasts Y rounds. Can this aura be turned off early? It also seems odd that it only affects non-allies.
That was not the way it was intended, yes if you Con is 16 and your a 6th level Jotun patragon you could use it 3 times per day for 6 rounds each.
The reason was we had a real issue when the aura was up and the Jotun went unconscious and the healer tried to run up to heal him getting zapped, not to mention when your bigger your aura starts covering the majority of the battlefield. Its the old battle between simulationist and gamist I sided on the gamist for this, as we want it to be fun and cool at the same time.
Elemental Blast mixes terms for "burst" and "spread" in the description. It seems like this should simply be a burst, as it would be odd for a "blast of fire" to go around corners and such like a spread.
replace spread with burst, good catch.
Rend states "Your slam attacks become claw attacks, if you hit with both claw attacks." does that mean the attacks are only claw attacks if both hit, or is that sentence fragment after the comma supposed to be deleted?
Should read
Your slam attacks become claw attacks. If a you hit with both claw attacks, you latch onto the opponent’s body and tear its flesh.slam becomes claws, does this impact elemental powers other than Grab that also tie damage to slam?
No, that is why Grab is specifically mentioned as being affected (it can weaken powers that rely on grappling because you have lost the use of grab).
For Terrain Mastery, can it be selected multiple times to add terrain types?
Yes.
Dark_Mistress
(Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber)
A review is a review is a review, does not matter when I get one I will always take one. So thanks for the review Endzeitgeist
I do get alot of flack for the no-multiclassing bit, but I will say you can play a stunted jotun as a druid or priest just not one with reach and really I would not do one without an extensive play-test.
Really though when I do questhaven I expect there will be a prestige class for Jotun Runepriests and maybe runeblades.
New commenter (and probably not a frequent one.) I like this Racial Character Class (to use the Rifts terminology), and - along with Northlands - it's a really nice addition to my group's post-Ragnarok game. R.A. Boettcher and erian_7 already addressed several of my questions, but I do still have a few things that I'd appreciate clarification on.
1. Terrain Mastery (fire): Gives a bonus to "Jumping" skill checks. Should this be expanded to Acrobatics, or amended to specify that it adds to Acrobatics skill checks for Jumping?
2. Dark Vision: Any particular reason only Aspect (ogre) and Aspect (troll) Jotuns can get this one? They aren't the only types of giants who have it (stone immediately comes to mind).
3. Elemental Sheath: Usage is a bit oddly phrased, but I'm assuming it works like your explanation for Elemental Aura, so the 6th level Jotun Paragon with 16 Constitution could use it 7 times per day for 3 rounds each. My question is, is the sheath attached to the character or to the weapon? If our fire aspect Jotun put an elemental sheath on his sword and handed it to a friend, would it still be on fire? If he puts the sheath on a rock and throws it, does the rock do extra fire damage to the target? How about arrows?
4. Energy Resistance/Immunity: At 10th level, this gives a vulnerability to the opposing element. The Aspect of... feats also give a vulnerability to the opposing element. Do these vulnerabilities stack?
When the Jotun gains their elemental subtype at 10th level, should they get any of the abilities that go with them? Most relevent, "Air creatures always have fly speeds" and 'Creatures with the water subtype always have swim speeds and can move in water without making Swim checks. A water creature can breathe underwater and can usually breathe air as well." Given that, for example, there is a Water Breathing elemental power that has higher prerequisites than Energy Resistance, I assume this is not the case.
That said, any suggestions for how an Aspect of Water Jotun *could* get a swim speed? Even Terrain Mastery (Aquatic) only gives a bonus to Swim skill checks.
5. Jotun's Bag: Is this a reference to something that got cut from the book? The only reference I could find was in the Elemental Power.
6. Fling and Jotun's Bag: Both of these reference an opponent "two size categories smaller than you". All the other manhandling abilities talk about opponents two or more size categories smaller, or within one size category. Does these two really only work on opponents exactly two size categories smaller?
7. Regeneration: This is written with the 3.5 version of Regeneration, not the Pathfinder version. Is that intentional?
8. Stone-Touch: Usable for a number of rounds equal to Constitution modifier (minimum 1; henceforth 'x'). No mention of number of times per day. Is this one of those "can be used for x rounds per day, in any combination" abilities, or as a spell-like ability does it just need to be reactivated every x rounds (as a standard action that provokes attacks of opportunity)?
9. Size Increase: The bit about equipment resizing is also oddly phrased. As written, only equipment the Jotun "possesses" (as opposed to actually having equipped) at the time they level up will change with them. First, does possess mean own or have equipped, and second when is the Jotun considered to be leveling? In every group I've gamed with, that's something that happens during downtime over the course of days to months.
10. Rock Throwing: It says damage is "generally" double slam damage. Is this an instance where size really does matter? Is a 20th level Jotun paragon throwing a Tiny rock going to do 8d6 damage (double their slam damage) or 2d6 damage (double the slam damage of the smallest size that can throw it)?
11. Oversized Weapon: Apparently lifted straight from Cloud giants, who are always Huge. Should that actually be "can wield weapons of one size category greater than normal that you are proficient with without penalty", or can a 13th level Jotun paragon wield a Gargantuan weapon with no penalty even when he's Medium-size?
12. Militant: By 19th level, I think most Jotuns will have figured out what weapons they're going to be using all of the time. In other words, it appears to be of very limited utility based on when it would appear in a campaign. It feels to me like "Well, we needed to give them something that level, and Militant is an ability that two kinds of giants get."
13. Awaken Elemental Power: It says each natural attack needs to be enchanted. Would a single enchantment work for their Slam power, or would they need to do it twice since there are "two" slam attacks?
14. Pinning Throw: Is there a magical component to this feat? As written, a high-Strength Jotun could pin even strong opponent with a 5 pound rock (that really, anybody with a Strength of greater than zero should be able to move it off of them.)
15. I'm just curious about whether there should be an Extra Elemental Power feat. Commentary: While it's true that this is generally more powerful than a single feat, comparable to Extra Mercy/Revelation/Etc. from other classes. Just like the Favored Class bonus to learn a new spell is more useful for spontaneous spellcasters than prepared spellcasters.
-Tommy
New commenter (and probably not a frequent one.) I like this Racial Character Class (to use the Rifts terminology), and - along with Northlands - it's a really nice addition to my group's post-Ragnarok game. R.A. Boettcher and erian_7 already addressed several of my questions, but I do still have a few things that I'd appreciate clarification on.
1. Terrain Mastery (fire): Gives a bonus to "Jumping" skill checks. Should this be expanded to Acrobatics, or amended to specify that it adds to Acrobatics skill checks for Jumping?
Let me first say this is exceptionally good workable feedback I hope you continue to comment on our products so that we can improve them.
It should be:
adds to Acrobatics skill checks for Jumping
2. Dark Vision: Any particular reason only Aspect (ogre) and Aspect (troll) Jotuns can get this one? They aren't the only types of giants who have it (stone immediately comes to mind).
I am pretty sure they are are the only ones....one you include the stone giant but I am always open to being wrong.
3. Elemental Sheath: Usage is a bit oddly phrased, but I'm assuming it works like your explanation for Elemental Aura, so the 6th level Jotun Paragon with 16 Constitution could use it 7 times per day for 3 rounds each.
7/day for 6 rounds each (Con has nothing to do with it).
[b]Elemental Sheath (Su):[b] You can use this ability as a free action a number of times per day equal to 1 +1 for every jotun paragon class levels you posses. This energy is the same type as you chose for your elemental power. Your attacks deal extra damage of that type for a number of rounds equal to your jotun paragon class level, the amount depending on your jotun paragon class level.
You summon elemental power to bathe your weapon—or even your bare fists—in energy, allowing you to deal extra energy damage with your strikes.
Class Level Extra Damage
1st 1d4
9th 1d6
15th 1d8
Special: if you take this ability a second time you add an additional die of damage
My question is, is the sheath attached to the character or to the weapon?
"You summon elemental power to bathe your weapon—or even your bare fists—in energy,"
Its attached to your weapon when you activate the ability (or your natural weapons in this case.
[quoteIf our fire aspect Jotun put an elemental sheath on his sword and handed it to a friend, would it still be on fire?
Yes
If he puts the sheath on a rock and throws it, does the rock do extra fire damage to the target? How about arrows?
Yes ranged weapons gain the benefit for 6 rounds as well, the effect is not limited to melee attack (ala it does not say melee weapons or you natural melee weapons). I could probably spell this out so that is absolutely clear.
4. Energy Resistance/Immunity: At 10th level, this gives a vulnerability to the opposing element. The Aspect of... feats also give a vulnerability to the opposing element. Do these vulnerabilities stack?
No because they are the same type of penalty. Typed bonuses and penalties never stack.
When the Jotun gains their elemental subtype at 10th level, should they get any of the abilities that go with them? Most relevent, "Air creatures always have fly speeds" and 'Creatures with the water subtype always have swim speeds and can move in water without making Swim checks. A water creature can breathe underwater and can usually breathe air as well."
No
Given that, for example, there is a Water Breathing elemental power that has higher prerequisites than Energy Resistance, I assume this is not the case.
That said, any suggestions for how an Aspect of Water Jotun *could* get a...
I would probably create a new elemental power that did so, requiring you to be at least a 5th level jotun paragon; also it would require having water breathing, water subtype, or terrain mastery aquatic. (great thought on a new power)
Really good stuff.
5. Jotun's Bag: Is this a reference to something that got cut from the book? The only reference I could find was in the Elemental Power.
Not is a referance to the elemental power jotun's bag which works alot like Swallow Whole.
6. Fling and Jotun's Bag: Both of these reference an opponent "two size categories smaller than you". All the other manhandling abilities talk about opponents two or more size categories smaller, or within one size category. Does these two really only work on opponents exactly two size categories smaller?
its an oversight should have been "At least two size categories smaller than you"
7. Regeneration: This is written with the 3.5 version of Regeneration, not the Pathfinder version. Is that intentional?
No this was me missing that the change, its a huge drawback sometimes to working with 3.x (arcana evolved) while also working on Pathfinder. Thanks for the catch your the first person to point this out.
8. Stone-Touch: Usable for a number of rounds equal to Constitution modifier (minimum 1; henceforth 'x'). No mention of number of times per day. Is this one of those "can be used for x rounds per day, in any combination" abilities, or as a spell-like ability does it just need to be reactivated every x rounds (as a standard action that provokes attacks of opportunity)?
Replaces the word "rounds" with Times per day, the ability is instantaneous.
9. Size Increase: The bit about equipment resizing is also oddly phrased. As written, only equipment the Jotun "possesses" (as opposed to actually having equipped) at the time they level up will change with them. First, does possess mean own or have equipped, and second when is the Jotun considered to be leveling? In every group I've gamed with, that's something that happens during downtime over the course of days to months.
10. Rock Throwing: It says damage is "generally" double slam damage. Is this an instance where size really does matter? Is a 20th level Jotun paragon throwing a Tiny rock going to do 8d6 damage (double their slam damage) or 2d6 damage (double the slam damage of the smallest size that can throw it)?
11. Oversized Weapon: Apparently lifted straight from Cloud giants, who are always Huge. Should that actually be "can wield weapons of one size category greater than normal that you are proficient with without penalty", or can a 13th level Jotun paragon wield a Gargantuan weapon with no penalty even when he's Medium-size?
12. Militant: By 19th level, I think most Jotuns will have figured out what weapons they're going to be using all of the time. In other words, it appears to be of very limited utility based on when it would appear in a campaign. It feels to me like "Well, we needed to give them something that level, and Militant is an ability that two kinds of giants get."
13. Awaken Elemental Power: It says each natural attack needs to be enchanted. Would a single enchantment work for their Slam power, or would they need to do it twice since there are "two" slam attacks?
14. Pinning Throw: Is there a magical component to this feat? As written, a high-Strength Jotun could pin even strong opponent with a 5 pound rock (that really, anybody with a Strength of greater than zero should be able to move it off of them.)
15. I'm just curious about whether there should be an Extra Elemental Power feat. Commentary: While it's true that this is generally more powerful than a single feat, comparable to Extra Mercy/Revelation/Etc. from other classes. Just like the Favored Class bonus to learn a new spell is more useful for spontaneous spellcasters than prepared spellcasters.
Any chance of giving this product some more options?
and slightly better wording on pages 13-14, size increase on going up and down a size, when I first read it, it sounded like I could only go down 1 size category and back up to the current size category, until I read the "Quickened growth" feat and it made me rethink the wording.
I have though of a few ideas for options for race options, paragon class, racial feats, and maybe something else.
Examples
page 14 from size increase.
The last paragraph of size increase is;
"You can as a full round action reduce your
size back down one category, it also takes a
standard action to increase your size back up
one category."
To make it more clear it could be;
"You can as a full round action reduce your size
back down one category, down to medium size, it
also takes a standard action to increase your
size back up one category, to max size, you can
currently change to."
Jotun Racial Traits (from the book, but not all of it)
Minor racial trait defining, for use with tradable racial traits
Original traits (only 2 out of the 5 or so) given names
Imposing Size:
Jotun are use to lording their size over
those around them and possess a +2 racial
bonus to Intimidate and Sense Motive skill
checks.
Craftsman:
Jotunnar enjoy a +2 racial bonus to all Craft
skill checks.
alternate racial traits:
Slight energy resistance:
pick 1 energy resistance (acid, cold, electricity, fire)
for every 2 HD you have, you gain 1 resistance against
that energy, this replaces the Craftsman racial trait.
Skilled Jotun:
You select one of the following feats;
Acrobatic, Alertness, Athletic, Deceitful, Persuasive,
Self-Sufficent, or Stealthy as a bonus feat. This racial
trait replaces the Imposing Size racial trait.
Human Sized:
You gain the "Pass For Human" feat and
You use Human height and weight tables
for medium size. This racial trait
replaces the Imposing Size racial trait.
Smooth Talker:
You gain a +1 racial bonus to Appraise, Bluff, and Diplomacy
This replaces the Craftsman racial trait.
Do you want feat and other examples as well?
I still have way more ideas.
If you do use these, I would only want to be credited with making them and this forum will be a third party that holds the original thoughts
and agreements between us.
Signed Scott Werba