I don't even know what a Corbie is, so that class name has completely failed on me. That said, at roughly 17p a class, that's an extremely good offer.

I don't even know what a Corbie is, so that class name has completely failed on me. That said, at roughly 17p a class, that's an extremely good offer.

Corbie is an archaic Scottish term for a raven, i.e. the birds that prey on the remnants of a battlefield. The class is basically a Fighter minus Bravery, Weapon Training, and Armor Training, but plus a whole bunch of luck- and skill-based abilities.

Just a quick comment: Int bonus to AC *is* a named bonus, it's named "Int."

Anyone get a chance to playtest some of these?

There's a new review on RPGnet:

http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/14/14691.phtml

There's a new review on RPGnet:

http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/14/14691.phtml

link

There's a new review on RPGnet:

http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/14/14691.phtml

Actually it was that review that lead me to go check out the feedback on Paizo.

Well I picked it up, gave it a once over and I understand what some of been saying. But I will give it a better going over later and post a review of it eventually.

I'd be interested in a comparison between the Gladiator class here, and the Gladiator class we worked up in Paths of Power.

Sean
4WFG

I'd be interested in a comparison between the Gladiator class here, and the Gladiator class we worked up in Paths of Power.

Sean
4WFG

First feeling between the two. I would say the 4wfg one fits more into historically what they was likely like. While this one makes a better PC Adventuring class.

Lyingbastard wrote:

I'd be interested in a comparison between the Gladiator class here, and the Gladiator class we worked up in Paths of Power.

Sean
4WFG

First feeling between the two. I would say the 4wfg one fits more into historically what they was likely like. While this one makes a better PC Adventuring class.

That's a fair comparison. What we were going for with the Gladiator was something like a fighter-bard, so to speak - a skilled warrior who relied on their presence, reputation, and charisma, but who wasn't adept at handling the rigorous of wilderness life. Adventuring, as a Gladiator, would be as a manner of escaping slavery/indentured servitude, or as a means of raising funds for oneself and one's owner, potentially to buy one's freedom. It's not meant to be a standard adventuring class, but one that I feel can add to a campaign.

My review as promised.

A book of new non spell casting classes.

This product is 52 pages long. Cover, credits, ToC and Intro is 4 pages. OGL and back cover is 2 pages.

Chapter 1 – Classes (40 pages)
Beastmaster – d12, 4 skills, all weapons, light/medium armor, full BaB.
This class is basically a Barbarian that gives up rage powers for a druid animal pet and some druid like special abilities, such as talk with animals, wild Empathy etc. It also has a few powers of it's own like, battle roar, scent, animal agility etc. Is it balanced with the barbarian? I would say it is close, most of it's class abilities it gains in place of rage are not combat abilities. I like the class.

Bounty Hunter – D10, 6 skills, weapons/armor like rogue, full BaB.
It gets track, bonus feats every 4 levels and sneak attack like a rogue. The class gets a few special class abilities such as Worth More Alive than Dead, sneak attack dmg can be non lethal even if done with a lethal weapon. With a few others that help the Bounty Hunter track down and/or take foes alive. I like the class, kinda a no spells ranger with a bit of rogue ability. But I worry a bit the full BaB and full sneak attack might be a bit much.

Corbie – d10, 4 skills, all weapons, light/medium armor, full BaB.
A bit of a fighter/rogue. Gets a bonus feat every 4 levels, at 5th gets tricks of the trade(similar to rogue talents) and then every 4 levels after. All and all a interesting class for those that want a fighter with a bit more social ability and a bit different.

Corsair - d10, 4 skills, all weapons, light/medium armor, full BaB.
Sneak attack like a rogue, damage reduction like a Barb, at 6th level learns vital strike and the improved versions every 6 levels. It gets a couple of it's own abilities. This one even with the full BaB and SA, doesn't seem to strong, as it has little else to help it out in combat. A interesting class but really has mechanically has very little to do with sailing.

Gladiator – d10, 2 skills, all melee and thrown weapons, light/medium armor, full BaB.
Bonus feats every 4th level(counts as a fighter -2 in lvls for purposes of feats), damage reduction like a barb, fighting styles similar to a ranger. They get a few other abilities mostly set feats or from a small list of feats and a bonus to all melee dmg +1 at 5th and goes to every 5 levels to a max of +4 at 20th. This class feels a bit stronger than the fighter. They give up half the feats and a couple of other things like armor training but get good replacements. But they are not much stronger and I don't think they would replace the fighter.

Hunter – d10, 4 skills, all weapons, light/medium armor, full BaB. Two good saves.
A spell less ranger/rogue. They give up spells, combat styles and a couple of ranger abilities and gain sneak attack(that works with ranged weapons at range) like a rogue, vital feat tree, and a couple of other abilities. There is one error I noticed part of the time sneak attacked is called ambush attack instead of the class chart.

Knight – d10, 4 skills, all weapons/armor, full BaB.
A mounted knight, every other level can choose a power from a power pool(similar in intent to rogue talents and of about the same power), they can a few special abilities, get better on a horse and gain weapon focus. This class might be a little weak next to a fighter and paladin. But it is a more social so a nice option.

Martial Artist – d10, 2 skills, all weapons including some exotic, no armor. Full BaB.
More of a weapon based monk, some unarmed abilities but gets bonuses with weapons, Bonus feats every other level(but not fighter feats). They get a ki pool half their level + wis mod. They can spend it to strike things normally only hit by magic etc, get a extra attack that round or for one round add +4 AC. Pool replenishes after 8 hours of rest. All and all a nice alternate to the monk for those wanted a more weapon based version.

Scholar – d8, 6 skills, simple weapons, no armor, medium BaB. 2 good saves.
This class made me think Indian Jones. It lores, bonus AC from Int, scholar secrets every other level(sorta like rogue talents, but can learn some basic magic as well), at 10th level they can pick from the advanced secrets list. This class really should have had the rogue ability Trapfinding. It would have been a great alternate version of the rogue, a more knowledge less combative.

Scout – d8, 8 skills, simple weapons(a few martial weapons), light armor, medium BaB.
Trapfinding, targeted strike(works like sneak attack but can be done at any time as long as the scout can clearly see the target), scout talents every other level and advanced ones at 10th (similar to rogue talents though some of the ranger abilities are options). Basically this a rogue that gives up uncanny dodge tree for a slightly better SA(no need to flank) and slightly different talents(more ranger like talents). This one I feel might be a bit to powerful honestly and feels like a slightly better rogue. Uncanny dodge tree is nice, but I don't feel it off sets the better SA.

Spy – d8, 6 skills, weapons/armor like rogue. Medium BaB.
Like a rogue including SA, gets Spy Talents instead and loses evasion and trapfinding. Talents are more social based, basically this is a more social based rogue. I like this class and feel it works well.

Chapter 2 – Feats (4 pages)
33 new feats that all and all seem fairly well thought out.

Chapter 3 – Equipment and Starting wealth (2 pages)
Adds 3 gladiator armors, 6 new weapons, 5 2h weapons and 1 new heavier bow.

Closing thoughts, I have not playtested this yet. So when I say this or that class feels strong or weak it is based on just reading the classes. I like this book especially for the price. While I do think some of the classes need some tweaks I think it is a good pickup to mine for idea's. If you are looking for some more non spell casting classes this book is worth picking up. The artwork is ok. My biggest concern about the book is the classes with full BaB and SA, makes me a little leery but maybe my fears are unfounded. I won't know till I get a chance to see them in play. I am giving this a 3.5 star mostly cause while I liked the book, I think some of the classes need a little tweaking.

My review as promised.

Thanks for the review! It's true that Scout's targeted strike is easier to get into play than sneak attack, but it's limited to the attack action (one attack). Also, Scouts don't get Use Magic Device. As for Scholars, trapfinding is available as a scholar secret. I really like the archetype of the erudite explorer, delving into tombs and ancient fortresses.

Lyingbastard wrote:

I'd be interested in a comparison between the Gladiator class here, and the Gladiator class we worked up in Paths of Power.

Sean
4WFG

First feeling between the two. I would say the 4wfg one fits more into historically what they was likely like. While this one makes a better PC Adventuring class.

Definitely, I wanted a class with something to do outside the arena, just as I wanted to make the corsair viable when ashore. The idea was a character with a gladiatorial background who turned their skills to adventuring. A fighter may have once have been a soldier, but soldiers don't usually fight dragons and mummies, so a fighter is an adventurer based on military fighting. The gladiator is an adventurer based on dueling in the arena. When fighting a single foe in melee, the gladiator says, "This is what I do best." I have seen other gladiators that were penalized in terms of ranged attacks or skills, and I didn't want to do that. I picture someone kind of like Maximus after spending years on the road, on horseback, climbing into drow catacombs, battling manticores, and from time to time, trouncing some lout in single combat. I think it's unfair to tell a player, "Ok, you can play your concept, but if you want abilities that are useful in mid-level adventuring, multiclass or feel useless." Originally I tried to work the gladiator styles in as class features, but one day I just blinked said, "What on earth does a retiarius fighting a murmillo have to do with killing ghouls or canoeing through underground rivers?" That's when I realized I wanted to take the concept of the gladiatorial fighter and imagine what useful skills he would bring to bear in a swords-and-sorcery milieu.

Dark_Mistress wrote:

My review as promised.

Thanks for the review! It's true that Scout's targeted strike is easier to get into play than sneak attack, but it's limited to the attack action (one attack). Also, Scouts don't get Use Magic Device. As for Scholars, trapfinding is available as a scholar secret. I really like the archetype of the erudite explorer, delving into tombs and ancient fortresses.

Yeah the text wasn't 100% clear if it was limited to a attack action. I thought it might have been but wasn't sure with how it was worded. So i errored on treating it like SA.

Hmm guess I just missed or forgot the trapfinding talent was on the scholar. Not a bit shock. Since I read it well over a week before I reviewed it. Yeah I loved the scholar idea, in fact one of the guys in our group is planning to run that type of rogue or was trying to make a rogue like that for the our next game. So I will show this to him as a option.

Dark_Mistress wrote:

Lyingbastard wrote:

I'd be interested in a comparison between the Gladiator class here, and the Gladiator class we worked up in Paths of Power.

Sean
4WFG

First feeling between the two. I would say the 4wfg one fits more into historically what they was likely like. While this one makes a better PC Adventuring class.

Definitely, I wanted a class with something to do outside the arena, just as I wanted to make the corsair viable when ashore. The idea was a character with a gladiatorial background who turned their skills to adventuring. A fighter may have once have been a soldier, but soldiers don't usually fight dragons and mummies, so a fighter is an adventurer based on military fighting. The gladiator is an adventurer based on dueling in the arena. When fighting a single foe in melee, the gladiator says, "This is what I do best." I have seen other gladiators that were penalized in terms of ranged attacks or skills, and I didn't want to do that. I picture someone kind of like Maximus after spending years on the road, on horseback, climbing into drow catacombs, battling manticores, and from time to time, trouncing some lout in single combat. I think it's unfair to tell a player, "Ok, you can play your concept, but if you want abilities that are useful in mid-level adventuring, multiclass or feel useless." Originally I tried to work the gladiator styles in as class features, but one day I just blinked said, "What on earth does a retiarius fighting a murmillo have to do with killing ghouls or canoeing through underground rivers?" That's when I realized I wanted to take the concept of the gladiatorial fighter and imagine what useful skills he would bring to bear in a swords-and-sorcery milieu.

Yeah I can see what you was going for with the classes and it makes sense. Though the flip side is it makes them stand apart a little less too. *shrug* Anyways I think it is a great buy for what you get. I mean even if someone only uses 1 class out of the whole book it is worth the price. Or if there are others like me that like to tweak classes this is a host of new class abilities to steal for their home games. :)

I'm kind of interested in the corbie and bounty hunter

I'm kind of interested in the corbie and bounty hunter

If you want to know more about them beyond what is in my review, feel free to ask. I will do the best I can to answer any questions.

RJGrady wrote:

Dark_Mistress wrote:

My review as promised.

Thanks for the review! It's true that Scout's targeted strike is easier to get into play than sneak attack, but it's limited to the attack action (one attack). Also, Scouts don't get Use Magic Device. As for Scholars, trapfinding is available as a scholar secret. I really like the archetype of the erudite explorer, delving into tombs and ancient fortresses.

Yeah the text wasn't 100% clear if it was limited to a attack action. I thought it might have been but wasn't sure with how it was worded. So i errored on treating it like SA.

I tried to be explicit about the attack action, but of course not everyone thinks of the attack action as a specific standard action. But it's been on the chart since D&D 3e. Targeted strike works basically the same as vital strike, but uses bonus d6s, like sneak attack, to make it weapon-neutral.

I have to say, this is the best PF expansion I've purchased to date. Finally, non-spellcasters get some lovin'! Additionally, I've found the classes evocative and screaming "play me now!". I hope to find time to put up a review after seeing some in action, but actual gaming sessions have been hard to schedule of late.

In any case, great product and very highly recommended.

I'm also hoping there will be a "And a few Denarii More" sequel!

I'm kind of interested in the corbie and bounty hunter

The corbie is a great class and hews much closer to the swords-n-sorcery roguish warrior far better than a multi-class fighter/rogue does for me.

The bounty hunter I like as well, but I share DM's concerns about combining full BAB with Sneak Attack. A slower sneak attack progression would probably nix my reservations, however. That's just my gut, however. I'll need to see the class in play before I can say the class is overpowered.

Finally, non-spellcasters get some lovin'!

well, that I agree with it. The PFRPG needs a little more non-caster classes

I would like to see a follow up to this. Perhaps some more skill focused classes. Like a noble, temptress as some examples.

i would love to see a skill monkey noble

I too, would love to see viable noble characters as well as other non-spellcasters.

Ideas:

The noble
The temptress/tempter
The courtier

The thug
The brawler
The assassin

Swashbuckler

I think the design objective is what helped make AFFoD superior. Create a class that addresses the archetype & theme, but ensure it's a useful class in the PF game. Borrow abilities from existing classes where it makes sense rather than trying to work up 100% new (I suspect it makes it easier to create balanced classes as well).

Adhering to that objective might result in a smaller product, but like it's predecessor, I think it'd hit the mark!

I keep wondering if it'd be possible to have a full-BAB progression class that's also a skill monkey (8 skill points per level, and around twenty or so class skills).

I know that seems unbalanced at a glance, but for the life of me I can't see how a large number of skill points and class skills really makes that much of a difference among the full-BAB classes. Does a fighter with 8 skill points per level really kill more monsters than one with 2 skill points per level?

I think you could Alzrius, since a fighter gets a bunch of feats. Such a class would need to get a lot less feats but I think you could. Actually the Knight class from this book is a little bit that way. only a 4 skill point and gives up a few fighter feats for it.

Heck, the Bounty Hunter gets 6 skill points per level and seems none the worse for it.

I think, looking back on my previous post, that I approached the idea from the wrong standpoint. It's not that a full-BAB class with high skill points would necessarily overpower other full-BAB classes. It's more that such a class would make playing existing skill monkeys, such as the rogue, underpowered by comparison. Why play a class with medium-BAB and 8 skill points per level, when you can play one with full-BAB and 8 skill points per level?

Of course, that's an oversimplification, given that class abilities and other aspects also determine a class's viability and such, but I do think that's part of it.

MerrikCale wrote:

I'm kind of interested in the corbie and bounty hunter

The corbie is a great class and hews much closer to the swords-n-sorcery roguish warrior far better than a multi-class fighter/rogue does for me.

The bounty hunter I like as well, but I share DM's concerns about combining full BAB with Sneak Attack. A slower sneak attack progression would probably nix my reservations, however. That's just my gut, however. I'll need to see the class in play before I can say the class is overpowered.

One issue with reducing the sneak attack rate for bounty hunter is that it creates a sparer chart. For instance, third level would basically just be Endurance as a bonus feat, which is pretty weak compared to the Ranger's third level. An alternate version would probably need at least two more bonuses just to fill in the progression:

1 track, sneak attack 1d6
2 uncanny dodge, worth more alive
3 endurance
4 sa 2d6, bonus feat
5 people watcher
6 surprise attack
7 sa 3d6
8 bonus feat
9 swift tracker
10 sa 4d6
11 dangerous game
12 bonus feat
13 sa 5d6
14 crippling strike
15
16 sa 6d6, bonus feat
17
18 slippery mind
19 sa 7d6
20 bonus feat, locate creature, no rest

Apart from that, the end result would be a little too similar to the Hunter.

I keep wondering if it'd be possible to have a full-BAB progression class that's also a skill monkey (8 skill points per level, and around twenty or so class skills).

I know that seems unbalanced at a glance, but for the life of me I can't see how a large number of skill points and class skills really makes that much of a difference among the full-BAB classes. Does a fighter with 8 skill points per level really kill more monsters than one with 2 skill points per level?

The traditional ways to balance skill points are:

The ranger already gets 6 skills ranks. The ranger lacks heavy armor proficiency, lacks social skills and most knowledge skills, and gets little in the way of abilities that scale a lot by level. However, they get two good saves and some combat bonuses.

In theory, you could take the ranger, strip out medium armor and spellcasting, and give him 8 skill points. His situational bonuses would be good, but he would have nothing that compares to a rogue's talents and such. In light of those issues, that is why the Corbie taps out at 4 skill points and relies on some skill-relaed abilities.

There is an interesting archetype that could work as high BAB, high skill points: the cavalier. A character with good social skills, riding, and a steady blade could be interesting. Another idea might be a non-magical version of the assassin.

So RJGrady any thoughts to doing a follow to this?

I added a review of this up on ENWorld now as well. I also edited the review of the one posted here to the included the fixes that RJ cleared up about it.

I do plan a sequel, and skill-based classes have been on my mind. However, the next project I'm working on is a races book.

I do plan a sequel, and skill-based classes have been on my mind. However, the next project I'm working on is a races book.

Thats cool, any hints on what races might be in it and when we might see it?

RJGrady wrote:

I do plan a sequel, and skill-based classes have been on my mind. However, the next project I'm working on is a races book.

Thats cool, any hints on what races might be in it and when we might see it?

I really want to start by making possible what has been called impossible. Some of the races are really going to stretch what has been done before, in terms of abilities highly suitable for PCs, hopefully while still providing balanced, well-integrated play. There will also be some "monster races" culled from the MM that have PC potential. We will also cover more classic humanoid types.

No promises on a publication date, yet. Writing is underway, but I will need to set up independent playtesting at some point.

Well, if you'd like someone to take an extra pass at typos and whatnot after it goes through editing, I'd be more than happy to. And it's not to try and get a free copy or whatever, it's just that I'm so happy with Fistful of Denarii I'd like to do anything else I can to help its succeeding books.

Cool, well look forward to it. *cracks the whip* Now write faster! :)

RJGrady wrote:

Jam412 wrote:

RJGrady wrote:

You think they'd pay for a Lulu saddle-stitched thingy? It might not be, you know, super-cheap.

How much are we talking?

Last time I checked, something more than $10 and less than $15.

I'd buy it. I regularly pay that for Pathfinder Companions.

Testing Lulu.com now. Let's see how this looks.

Testing Lulu.com now. Let's see how this looks.

WOO!

And we are live. If you want to buy this in print from Lulu, you can go here.

http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/adventuring-classes-a-fistful-of-dena rii/11708150

And we are live. If you want to buy this in print from Lulu, you can go here.

http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/adventuring-classes-a-fistful-of-dena rii/11708150

W00t!

Come November, I'm ordering 8 copies for Christmas gifts... but I'm not waiting that long for my own!

Anyone who wants to place an order through Lulu this week can get 15% off by entering coupon code BEACHREAD305.

I'm going to sound like a broken record to those that read all the threads, but, you couldn't have posted that earlier? I bought 4 copies around noon! :) Oh well... :)

I'm going to sound like a broken record to those that read all the threads, but, you couldn't have posted that earlier? I bought 4 copies around noon! :) Oh well... :)

I tried to post it as soon as possible. I was thinking of you. :)

Nice review End.

RJGrady - how is the next book coming? It's been awhile and I would like to see you make more stuff.

Thanks, D_M!

@RJ Grady: Seconded. I want MOAR! ;)

The races book is skeletally complete, and I'll be finalizing the final list of races after the holidays (still tinkering with some concepts). It will still take time to finish the fluff-writing, do internal playtesting, and line up artwork. But if I can catch some breaks, fairly early in the year is definitely a possibility.

I wasn't originally planning on doing A Few Denarii More right away, but some ideas have been tickling me lately, and especially having seen what Paizo did with the APG (and relevantly, what they didn't do), I can see the Courtier and some other concepts moving to the forefront as interesting PC possibilities that haven't, and likely won't, be covered by Paizo. I expect this will follow the races book closely, whenever that happens.

Sounds very cool, I am looking forward to both the book you are working on now and to A Few Denarii More. :)

The races book is skeletally complete, and I'll be finalizing the final list of races after the holidays (still tinkering with some concepts). It will still take time to finish the fluff-writing, do internal playtesting, and line up artwork. But if I can catch some breaks, fairly early in the year is definitely a possibility.

I wasn't originally planning on doing A Few Denarii More right away, but some ideas have been tickling me lately, and especially having seen what Paizo did with the APG (and relevantly, what they didn't do), I can see the Courtier and some other concepts moving to the forefront as interesting PC possibilities that haven't, and likely won't, be covered by Paizo. I expect this will follow the races book closely, whenever that happens.

So, what's the latest news?